Crown

But CH and other test drivers  did not find any bad thing to say about that  when they tried it on  open ' closed' roads .

I wonder if it is more tricky then the 997 GT3 at the limits or if it is just more difficult compared to the Turbo , which with its AWD will be more easy and predictable then the RWD .

They had to find something to say, they could not only say positive about the Turbo and the GT3 .  The paper would of looked biased .

BTW did you all notice that the Turbo ( non S ) is non existent...... a bit like the base Carrera .

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

hunterone:

But when you read the test then its obvious that they are not too happy at all with the driving dynamics on the limit.

Does someone got an english version of the test?

It is the first time that I hear something like that with the 991 GT3. Until now, all the reviews say it is a masterpiece...?!

Nürburgring Nordschleife Verdict (own translation so maybe some typos and errors;)):

The new GT3 is faster then his predecessor from 2009, overall as many as 8 seconds. With 7.32 min he drives in the same league as the 4.0 GT3 RS (7.30min). When someone stays under the absolute limit, when you use the potential of the car to 95%, with correct usage, you will rewarded with clear and trustworthy handling. At and above the limit the bond of trust is dulled with an indifferent handling. The reactions are going to be diffuse - they don’t follow the previously defined regularities.

Hockenheim Ring Verdict:

The GT3 shows sometimes an inconsistent nature. Curve entry understeer (South corner) changes with over steer (North corner). The comparison to the time driven from the 4.0 GT3 RS can be an evidence that the gain from the 4wd steering is very minor, possibly next to zero. The build-up of the cornering force is subjectively not significantly improved. That's a far cry from saying that the rear wheel driven car reveals a need for improvement in the handling department. Direction changes translate the GT3 without the slightest delay.

I'll hold my horses for now and expect to see better results with other testers, since this car didn't perform as expected or maybe it didn't reach peak power as per sport auto dyno.

Every article i read n all the glory the new model got - comments like gamechanger,, superior handling to any 997, pdk, discussion etc - now 1 second faster than my Stoneage manual RS around NBR ?  An that with 25 hp more and the new chassis ? Marketing at its best......

BjoernB:

Every article i read n all the glory the new model got - comments like gamechanger,, superior handling to any 997, pdk, discussion etc - now 1 second faster than my Stoneage manual RS around NBR ?  An that with 25 hp more and the new chassis ? Marketing at its best......

Turbo S > less expensive (pricey!?) 991s which can push your price tag close to turbo territory when adding options....end of story   that is if I am in the market for one (imho)

BjoernB:

Every article i read n all the glory the new model got - comments like gamechanger,, superior handling to any 997, pdk, discussion etc - now 1 second faster than my Stoneage manual RS around NBR ?  An that with 25 hp more and the new chassis ? Marketing at its best......

You are comparing apples to oranges.  991 GT3 is 8 sec faster than its precedessor, which is 997.2 GT3.  This is a substantial  gap (and approximately the same gap between 997.2 GT3 and 997.2 GT3 RS by the way). You will need to compare lap time of your car (997.2 GT3 RS) to that of the 991 GT3 RS.  All the times I am referring to are the Supertest times of course.

moo:

reginos:

BiTurbo:

RC:

Just compare the price tag of a 991 GT3 with the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 or the 991 Turbo S for that matter. The GT3 is a great offer from Porsche and I don't understand any of the disappointment.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

What ever happened to factory claim at HHR 1.08  Sport Auto (04/2013) + under 7.30min ?  vs 1.09,6 & 7.32min (11/2013)

Example 991 Carrera S discrepancy:

Sport Auto lap time with HvS : 7:44

Porsche factory driver Timo Kluck   :7:37,9 (see video on youtube)

Regarding the GT3, 7:32 or 7:29, is this the issue? So what?

 

--

"Form follows function"

exactly, those three seconds cannot be the issue. what bothers me a bit are the comments on itchiness close to the limit of the car.

peter

..but I would have two more issues:

1. The turbo S is faster then the 991 GT3 - for the first time this trend has changed..- would I be happy? If I ordered a 991 GT3 I wouldnt be happy..I would have expected the GT3 to be the best performer..OK..there will still be an RS...but whether that can beat the turbo S..now Im waitiung for the 991 tubo s supertest

2. what I really dont like here is that Porsche claimed numerous time the car is faster than the 4.0..its not. So Porsche should stop this bs marketing..their behaviour to 991 GT3 customers (prod. delays etc) is not acceptable either. Imagine the case, 991S owner ordered 991 GT3 in May..dealer told him: thanks, we will take your 991S in Augus when you get the new car..now it will probably be March..and in the mean time the 991S (or any ohther car) would have lost another 10K..I wouldnt be happy..

GTlover:

moo:

reginos:

BiTurbo:

RC:

Just compare the price tag of a 991 GT3 with the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 or the 991 Turbo S for that matter. The GT3 is a great offer from Porsche and I don't understand any of the disappointment.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

What ever happened to factory claim at HHR 1.08  Sport Auto (04/2013) + under 7.30min ?  vs 1.09,6 & 7.32min (11/2013)

Example 991 Carrera S discrepancy:

Sport Auto lap time with HvS : 7:44

Porsche factory driver Timo Kluck   :7:37,9 (see video on youtube)

Regarding the GT3, 7:32 or 7:29, is this the issue? So what?

 

--

"Form follows function"

exactly, those three seconds cannot be the issue. what bothers me a bit are the comments on itchiness close to the limit of the car.

peter

..but I would have two more issues:

1. The turbo S is faster then the 991 GT3 - for the first time this trend has changed..- would I be happy? If I ordered a 991 GT3 I wouldnt be happy..I would have expected the GT3 to be the best performer..OK..there will still be an RS...but whether that can beat the turbo S..now Im waitiung for the 991 tubo s supertest

2. what I really dont like here is that Porsche claimed numerous time the car is faster than the 4.0..its not. So Porsche should stop this bs marketing..their behaviour to 991 GT3 customers (prod. delays etc) is not acceptable either. Imagine the case, 991S owner ordered 991 GT3 in May..dealer told him: thanks, we will take your 991S in Augus when you get the new car..now it will probably be March..and in the mean time the 991S (or any ohther car) would have lost another 10K..I wouldnt be happy..

1. You are right. I ordered the car because it is a different concept than the Turbo S. That different concept used to be: more hp than a Carrera S, less than the Turbo (S) but better track handling than both of them(AND better laptimes).

Unfortunately this concept changed. I am not happy indeed.  

Ofcourse this is only one test the performance is still very good. Only if the Turbo S was just not faster the 'package' still would be perfect. The Porsche GT cars used to own the track not the luxurious Turbo(S).

2. This is only based on one test. But, yes, it is disappointing. Even without the delay it is disappointing.

Hopefully Porsche will start delivering the GT3's. Or at least be transparent on the delay. 

--

- HS (Belgium)  -  '14 Porsche 991 GT3 (oct build) - '06 BMW 335I Coupe  

The advantage of the new 991 GT3 is not necessarily that it is much faster than the 997 GT3 (which would still be true...) but the advantage is now that even average talented drivers can actually enjoy the car at the limit without killing themselves (or being slow for that matter). I understand the disappointment but this is where the GT3 RS comes in.

Also, I hate to say it but the 991 Turbo S is almost 60k EUR more expensive than the GT3 in Germany. This is comparing Apples to Oranges.

I would compare the new 991 GT3 to the old 997 GT3 and especially to the 991 Carrera S. Compared to these cars, the GT3 does a wonderful job. Mission accomplished.

You want more? There is a GT3 RS coming. Not enough? Well, how about a GT2 RS?

I still think that the new 991 GT3 is a bargain from Porsche.

Regarding the delivery/production delay: Yes, this is a very unfortunate situation, I agree. Many customers are angry and many more will be angry. I just hope Porsche does the right thing to address these angry customers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Gnil:

But CH and other test drivers  did not find any bad thing to say about that  when they tried it on  open ' closed' roads .

I wonder if it is more tricky then the 997 GT3 at the limits or if it is just more difficult compared to the Turbo , which with its AWD will be more easy and predictable then the RWD .

They had to find something to say, they could not only say positive about the Turbo and the GT3 .  The paper would of looked biased .

BTW did you all notice that the Turbo ( non S ) is non existent...... a bit like the base Carrera .

You wouldn't believe how good the Turbo S is, so easy to drive at (almost) the limit and I pushed it hard but not as hard as I would have loved to (kid, public road). It is a very fascinating car because it quickly transforms from a cruiser to a racer, something you really need to experience yourself. Traction is the key word here. Due to the new PTM (AWD) system, the new Turbo S is unbelievable. There is traction without limits (well, within physics laws ) and the steering, no, the whole car, feels go kart like in tight bends and curves. Funny enough, I actually didn't feel the weight but I "felt" the shape of the car, the dimensions and my brain always told me: "Slow down, you cannot do it, the car is too big" but a couple of seconds later, the curve was behind me and my brain told me: "Impossible, you just didn't take that curve at that speed, didn't you?". My son always reported the curve speeds to me (it kind of helps me to get a feeling for the car's capabilities) and I caught myself two or three times asking him "Are you sure? This is impossible" and he got angry and confirmed the speedo reading. The rear wheel steering is an amazing feature of the 991 Turbo S and it feels natural, it feels as an integral part of the car, similar to the AWD system. It is one perfect setup and I think this is what Sport Auto mentioned.

Yes, everyone can be very fast in the 991 Turbo S, probably only a few the same way fast in a 991 GT3. Even at the limit, the 991 Turbo S is amazingly predictable and you need to be an idiot to crash this car. However, this is not something everyone can do (driving the Turbo S at the limit), simply because this car is so insanely fast that it would pose a serious issue for most drivers to keep that speed under control in tight bends and curves. This is where too much power can be a disadvantage at some point.

Back to topic (GT3): There is nothing wrong with the GT3, maybe Sport Auto made the mistake to compare both, the GT3 and Turbo S, a little bit too close to each other. The new Turbo S has some sort of morbid fascination once you get used to driving this car and even Chris Harris noticed that, saying that this is actually the first 911 Turbo he likes.

Now most of you guys will say: What the heck, of course RC loves the Turbo S...he got one. Believe me when I tell you that I am as much surprised as you and car journalists how good the new Turbo S actually is. When I heard the final power early this year, I said to myself: Are they nuts. Just 30 horses more than the old car? To be frank: Most of you would NEVER use that kind of power in the Turbo S because other than the Autobahn, this power is not much of a use on a track/road with lots of twists and turns. Still, with that amazing traction of the new PTM system and the very neutral behaviour of the car, the power is highly manageable and the car is a LOT of fun.

I just wish I had the money for an additional GT3 too, both cars would complement each other wonderfully.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I fully agree with everything you say and probably most of the people that buy the car will indeed never or rarely use its full potential. But what surprised my most of all and what no one in a review talks about, is the fact the the car is so easy and pleasant to drive at normal speeds and in citytraffic.

That the car would be fascinating due to its power and speed, was something I was expecting, because...well it's a 911 Turbo and all the reviews mentioned it already, but when driving in normal mode or just cruising, the car is as easy to drive as a VW Golf. And with that I mean, it isn't that intimidating in normal mode as what you'd expect. It's actually very nice when in driving normal mode. Something that can't be said of a Carrera or Carrera S. In the Turbo (S), all three modes are usable. It does indeed change from a pretty comfortable cruiser (Normal mode)  into a Sportscar (Sport mode) or even into a racer (Sport+). That is the thing that impressed me most of all....

--

Suzy

 

RC:

Gnil:

But CH and other test drivers  did not find any bad thing to say about that  when they tried it on  open ' closed' roads .

I wonder if it is more tricky then the 997 GT3 at the limits or if it is just more difficult compared to the Turbo , which with its AWD will be more easy and predictable then the RWD .

They had to find something to say, they could not only say positive about the Turbo and the GT3 .  The paper would of looked biased .

BTW did you all notice that the Turbo ( non S ) is non existent...... a bit like the base Carrera .

You wouldn't believe how good the Turbo S is, so easy to drive at (almost) the limit and I pushed it hard but not as hard as I would have loved to (kid, public road). It is a very fascinating car because it quickly transforms from a cruiser to a racer, something you really need to experience yourself. Traction is the key word here. Due to the new PTM (AWD) system, the new Turbo S is unbelievable. There is traction without limits (well, within physics laws ) and the steering, no, the whole car, feels go kart like in tight bends and curves. Funny enough, I actually didn't feel the weight but I "felt" the shape of the car, the dimensions and my brain always told me: "Slow down, you cannot do it, the car is too big" but a couple of seconds later, the curve was behind me and my brain told me: "Impossible, you just didn't take that curve at that speed, didn't you?". My son always reported the curve speeds to me (it kind of helps me to get a feeling for the car's capabilities) and I caught myself two or three times asking him "Are you sure? This is impossible" and he got angry and confirmed the speedo reading. The rear wheel steering is an amazing feature of the 991 Turbo S and it feels natural, it feels as an integral part of the car, similar to the AWD system. It is one perfect setup and I think this is what Sport Auto mentioned.

Yes, everyone can be very fast in the 991 Turbo S, probably only a few the same way fast in a 991 GT3. Even at the limit, the 991 Turbo S is amazingly predictable and you need to be an idiot to crash this car. However, this is not something everyone can do (driving the Turbo S at the limit), simply because this car is so insanely fast that it would pose a serious issue for most drivers to keep that speed under control in tight bends and curves. This is where too much power can be a disadvantage at some point.

Back to topic (GT3): There is nothing wrong with the GT3, maybe Sport Auto made the mistake to compare both, the GT3 and Turbo S, a little bit too close to each other. The new Turbo S has some sort of morbid fascination once you get used to driving this car and even Chris Harris noticed that, saying that this is actually the first 911 Turbo he likes.

Now most of you guys will say: What the heck, of course RC loves the Turbo S...he got one. Believe me when I tell you that I am as much surprised as you and car journalists how good the new Turbo S actually is. When I heard the final power early this year, I said to myself: Are they nuts. Just 30 horses more than the old car? To be frank: Most of you would NEVER use that kind of power in the Turbo S because other than the Autobahn, this power is not much of a use on a track/road with lots of twists and turns. Still, with that amazing traction of the new PTM system and the very neutral behaviour of the car, the power is highly manageable and the car is a LOT of fun.

I just wish I had the money for an additional GT3 too, both cars would complement each other wonderfully.

RC,

all your postings are about raw speed. very one-dimensional and..honestly..boring, unless you want to beat someone in street racing. can you please illuminate us on sound (what is it like close to the limiter? better than a dyson? M5? C4S?), desirability (the woooowww effect....rich man's beetle?), looks (some would say just another ...yawn... 911...), supercar feeling (7200 RPM???????, where are the revs??)

cheers, p

ps: i am very worried that ferrari is in the process of designing a F458 successor with a turbo engine.... also they need to control emission values  and they certainly want to be faster than the turbo S. i could not care less about it...

SuzyF:

I fully agree with everything you say and probably most of the people that buy the car will indeed never or rarely use its full potential. But what surprised my most of all and what no one in a review talks about, is the fact the the car is so easy and pleasant to drive at normal speeds and in citytraffic.

like a BMW M5. feels very similar, just 250kg heavier.

p

That the car would be fascinating due to its power and speed, was something I was expecting, because...well it's a 911 Turbo and all the reviews mentioned it already, but when driving in normal mode or just cruising, the car is as easy to drive as a VW Golf. And with that I mean, it isn't that intimidating in normal mode as what you'd expect. It's actually very nice when in driving normal mode. Something that can't be said of a Carrera or Carrera S. In the Turbo (S), all three modes are usable. It does indeed change from a pretty comfortable cruiser (Normal mode)  into a Sportscar (Sport mode) or even into a racer (Sport+). That is the thing that impressed me most of all....

--

Suzy

 

moo:

SuzyF:

I fully agree with everything you say and probably most of the people that buy the car will indeed never or rarely use its full potential. But what surprised my most of all and what no one in a review talks about, is the fact the the car is so easy and pleasant to drive at normal speeds and in citytraffic.

 

like a BMW M5. feels very similar, just 250kg heavier.

p

Only difference is that the M5 not only is heavy and big, but also feels that way. The Turbo S doesn't IMO. It didn't feel that less agile than my Boxster and I think that can be seen as a compliment. I never had the feeling that I was driving a 1600kg car.

Suzy

 

you should test-drive the M5. those who like the turbo typically also like the M5. the latter even looks much better than the aero-beetle. and it has real back seats, big trunk to keep the DD-avability fraction happy, and it has more comfy gadgets. turbo S sounds a bit better though. only a bit.

p

moo:

you should test-drive the M5. those who like the turbo typically also like the M5. the latter even looks much better than the aero-beetle. and it has real back seats, big trunk to keep the DD-avability fraction happy, and it has more comfy gadgets. turbo S sounds a bit better though. only a bit.

p

I have actually.

I was in the matket to replace my SQ5 (poor car did 77000km in less than a year) as my company car and wanted to h switch to BMW (they had a nice business lease deal), so did a testdrive in the M5. Nice car, but I wanted a touring and a little bit reasonable fuel economy, so I ordered a 535d xdrive touring (almost ordered a m550d, but I'm glad I didn't). It's not only my business car, but also a kind of workhorse/family hauler/long distance cruiser. In other words, a car that Is reliable, economic, comfortable and where I can throw a lot if stuff in the back when i need to.

Suzy

 

Suzy, since you like the Turbo S so much, why don't you order a Turbo S cab and sell the Boxster in the process? Is it because you like the look of the coupe better?

SuzyF:

moo:

you should test-drive the M5. those who like the turbo typically also like the M5. the latter even looks much better than the aero-beetle. and it has real back seats, big trunk to keep the DD-avability fraction happy, and it has more comfy gadgets. turbo S sounds a bit better though. only a bit.

p

I have actually.

I was in the matket to replace my SQ5 (poor car did 77000km in less than a year) as my company car and wanted to h switch to BMW (they had a nice business lease deal), so did a testdrive in the M5. Nice car, but I wanted a touring and a little bit reasonable fuel economy, so I ordered a 535d xdrive touring (almost ordered a m550d, but I'm glad I didn't). It's not only my business car, but also a kind of workhorse/family hauler/long distance cruiser. In other words, a car that Is reliable, economic, comfortable and where I can throw a lot if stuff in the back when i need to.

fuel economy on the M5 was horrible, actually a bit worse than my F458. i would not be surprised though if the same holds for the turbo S. cars with turbo engines manage to get rather low EU cycle values but no one gets close to those in real life.

peter

moo:

 

all your postings are about raw speed. very one-dimensional and..honestly..boring, unless you want to beat someone in street racing. can you please illuminate us on sound (what is it like close to the limiter? better than a dyson? M5? C4S?), desirability (the woooowww effect....rich man's beetle?), looks (some would say just another ...yawn... 911...), supercar feeling (7200 RPM???????, where are the revs??)

cheers, p

ps: i am very worried that ferrari is in the process of designing a F458 successor with a turbo engine.... also they need to control emission values  and they certainly want to be faster than the turbo S. i could not care less about it...

 

Like I said before...I'm not a poser.  

The fact that you talk about "Dyson" sound actually tells me now one thing for sure: You have never driven a Turbo S.

So here is my question for you: Why are you trolling around in this forum? Just for the fun of it?! 

Cheers. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

moo:

you should test-drive the M5. those who like the turbo typically also like the M5. the latter even looks much better than the aero-beetle. and it has real back seats, big trunk to keep the DD-avability fraction happy, and it has more comfy gadgets. turbo S sounds a bit better though. only a bit.

p

I hate the M5 and I think I said this a thousand times on the forum. The M5 and the 991 Turbo S have nothing in common, absolutely zero. Not sure why you make this comparison over and over again and frankly said, I'm starting to feel annoyed and this is a territory you don't want to enter. 

You have never driven a 991 Turbo S (you claimed otherwise a couple of days ago), this is for sure, otherwise you wouldn't make these claims. Unless of course you have perception issues, which would explain why being seen and heard in your car seems to be more important to you than actually enjoying the capabilities of your car. I'm not even sure anymore you own a 458 because I know a couple of 458 drivers and they all drive their cars quite fast (look at Onur in the forum or even CR, the owner of this site who owns a 458 Spider and has done almost 50k km in it and he added Trofeo tires to the car because it wasn't fast enough for him...on the street). 

Maybe you should replace David Saltzberg as a consultant for The Big Bang Theory. You are funny. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Ziggy:

Suzy, since you like the Turbo S so much, why don't you order a Turbo S cab and sell the Boxster in the process? Is it because you like the look of the coupe better?

Yes indeed. The 911 is a coupe that they've transformed into a cab and you can see that. The Boxster is from scratch designed as a roadster. That's why a Cayman still looks a bit odd IMO. It's a roadster, turned into a coupe.

Besides that is a coupe better suited for a daily driver and are the backseats of the coupe more usable than those in the cab.

Suzy

 

Ziggy:

BjoernB:

Every article i read n all the glory the new model got - comments like gamechanger,, superior handling to any 997, pdk, discussion etc - now 1 second faster than my Stoneage manual RS around NBR ?  An that with 25 hp more and the new chassis ? Marketing at its best......

You are comparing apples to oranges.  991 GT3 is 8 sec faster than its precedessor, which is 997.2 GT3.  This is a substantial  gap (and approximately the same gap between 997.2 GT3 and 997.2 GT3 RS by the way). You will need to compare lap time of your car (997.2 GT3 RS) to that of the 991 GT3 RS.  All the times I am referring to are the Supertest times of course.

Makes sense what you say in terms of "model types" - but since the 991 GT3 has 475 HP + lots of new goodies +25hp more than the old 450hp RS mezger engine with a stick - that comparison doesn't fly anymore to me. the 997 had a time of 7:33 min for sure  and considering the jump Porsche made with the 991 AND a 4wheel drive the difference is marginal. I agree with RC that maybe it's easier to exploid these times in a 991 - but then we're moving towards playstation with lesser and lesser driver-involvement. I understand that we have reached a point where steps will be smaller and smaller - but to my point : the hype made of the 991 doesn't life up - to me at least

RC:

moo:

 

all your postings are about raw speed. very one-dimensional and..honestly..boring, unless you want to beat someone in street racing. can you please illuminate us on sound (what is it like close to the limiter? better than a dyson? M5? C4S?), desirability (the woooowww effect....rich man's beetle?), looks (some would say just another ...yawn... 911...), supercar feeling (7200 RPM???????, where are the revs??)

cheers, p

ps: i am very worried that ferrari is in the process of designing a F458 successor with a turbo engine.... also they need to control emission values  and they certainly want to be faster than the turbo S. i could not care less about it...

 

Like I said before...I'm not a poser.  

The fact that you talk about "Dyson" sound actually tells me now one thing for sure: You have never driven a Turbo S.

oh come on CR.....when i shall do my third test drive with the turbo S (forced by family pressure:::::))))) i shall take pictures and post them here.

with due respect, the sound is really nothing to behold, particularly when you just got out of a 458 and right into the turbo S.

So here is my question for you: Why are you trolling around in this forum? Just for the fun of it?! 

here is my answer for you: i had a GT3 on order, got the 458 instead and have some regrets since i love porsches....that is why i got on the GT3RS list. but my significant other wants a 4WD comfy cruiser. that is why i am also looking at the turbo S. but this does not mean that i like all about the car. contrary to some owners i tend to stay critical, with cars i own and those i am interested in.

Cheers. 

you should apologize for the word 'trolling'.

RC:

 Not sure why you make this comparison over and over again and frankly said, I'm starting to feel annoyed and this is a territory you don't want to enter. 

and that means what in particular? 

You have never driven a 991 Turbo S (you claimed otherwise a couple of days ago), this is for sure, otherwise you wouldn't make these claims. Unless of course you have perception issues, which would explain why being seen and heard in your car seems to be more important to you than actually enjoying the capabilities of your car. I'm not even sure anymore you own a 458 because I know a couple of 458 drivers and they all drive their cars quite fast (look at Onur in the forum or even CR, the owner of this site who owns a 458 Spider and has done almost 50k km in it and he added Trofeo tires to the car because it wasn't fast enough for him...on the street). 

Maybe you should replace David Saltzberg as a consultant for The Big Bang Theory. You are funny. 

CR, please try to stay factual. there is no need to reveal your level of scientific knowledge to the community.

cheer it up, mate.

peter

Moo...with all due respect, sometimes it is hard to understand whether you write in jest or perhaps you simply like to provoke for the sake of provoking.

Calling a 991 Turbo an "aero-beetle" and then comparing it to an M5 in the same post is borderline insulting.

There is an underlying sense in most of your posts that you love to glorify your 458 and belittle 911s.

I have owned a Ferrari 599 for 4 years and 70,000km and driven the 458 extensively. I understand very well both the appeal and the downsides related to the Ferrari experience.

After my 4 years with a 599 used as an almost daily driver, I came back missing the 911 experience and thus chose the "aero-beetle" over an F12 (which I liked much more than the 458 personally).

The point is, different cars appeal to different people for different reason. It is all very subjective ultimately.

It is evident that coming to a Porsche-centric forum with your kind of attitude is unlikely to prove popular.

I see a lot of disappointment here regarding the Sport Auto lap times of the 991 GT3. One has to keep in mind that you cannot draw firm conclusions on a small sample size. Apart from the variation in test conditions and driver performance on the day - you get variance from one specific car to the next. If the Sport Auto GT3 had for example a power output on the 10th percentile of the distribution - say 465 ps and the Turbo S and GT3 RS 4.0 on the 90th percentile of their distributions - that kind of variance in lap times is possible. I don't think Porsche would deliberately mislead the public on the 991 GT3 lap times. No one would have done more laps with different examples of the 991GT3 and GT3 RS 4.0 than Porsche and if they concluded that the 991 GT3 is marginally faster, then that is probably the case. I suggest we wait for more independent tests to build up a bigger sample before we draw firm conclusions. The Sport Auto test car also underperformed compared to Porsche figures in terms of straight line performance while we have seen examples meeting the Porsche quotes - like the one Car and Driver tested.

Caymanisking:

I see a lot of disappointment here regarding the Sport Auto lap times of the 991 GT3. One has to keep in mind that you cannot draw firm conclusions on a small sample size. Apart from the variation in test conditions and driver performance on the day - you get variance from one specific car to the next. If the Sport Auto GT3 had for example a power output on the 10th percentile of the distribution - say 465 ps and the Turbo S and GT3 RS 4.0 on the 90th percentile of their distributions - that kind of variance in lap times is possible. I don't think Porsche would deliberately mislead the public on the 991 GT3 lap times. No one would have done more laps with different examples of the 991GT3 and GT3 RS 4.0 than Porsche and if they concluded that the 991 GT3 is marginally faster, then that is probably the case. I suggest we wait for more independent tests to build up a bigger sample before we draw firm conclusions. The Sport Auto test car also underperformed compared to Porsche figures in terms of straight line performance while we have seen examples meeting the Porsche quotes - like the one Car and Driver tested.

Don't forget that Sport Auto Supertest follows a certain (certified) test pattern to make it possible for readers to compare values. The test itself was OK as far as I heard, nothing fishy, nothing out of the ordinary, the test car was technically OK (the software glitch appeared before dyno testing), so nothing wrong.

I don't understand why people aren't happy with the results. The 991 GT3 is the successor to the 997 GT3. In Hockenheim, the new 991 GT3 achieved almost the same time as the 997 GT3 RS 4.0. The difference is marginal (1.09,6 vs. 1.09,5 for the 4.0), so both cars have basically the same performance in Hockenheim. Keep in mind that the RS 4.0 has 25 horses more, weights less and also was that special edition RS model, not your ordinary GT3. In the acceleration/braking test (0-200 kph acceleration, 200 kph to 0 kph braking), the new GT3 is even a tiny bit faster than the 4.0. So while comparing it to the RS 4.0, the 991 GT3 may not excel, it actually gives people a pretty good hint of the performance level compared to the old 997 GT3 (not RS 4.0). What do people actually expect?

The 991 GT3 is a worthy successor to the 997 GT3 and this is what it is supposed to be. If Porsche claims that the 991 GT3 is faster on the track than the 997 GT3 RS 4.0, this only means that they know the cars better and of course they can achieve different results. How much better, Porsche actually never said, so 100 ms faster would also be faster. 

I also think that many people forget what the purpose of the 991 GT3 is. This is supposed to be a track car, not your daily driver to work. The fact that Porsche made it more accessible to the general public doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will be happy with this car. It still is quite a harsh ride compared to the 991 Turbo S or even the Carrera S with sport chassis.

Finally, the new 991 GT3 is 8 seconds faster on the Nordschleife than the "old" 997 GT3 (7:32 min. vs 7:40 min.).

So to be frank: I don't get the problem here. At all. 

Want more? Wait for the GT3 RS. Couldn't be simpler. 

I actually think that many are unhappy with the GT3 Supertest because the 991 Turbo S has proven to be so fast, a car which is actually substantially heavier. Again I ask: What did you expect? The new 991 Turbo S not only costs almost 60k EUR more than the GT3, it carries the latest generation of Porsche's PTM (AWD) system incl. a new chassis and active aerodynamics and not to forget, the AWS system (which is also new on the GT3). You need to see the 991 Turbo S in a certain perspective and also understand, that 99% of the Turbo S owners will probably drive with normal street tires, not UHP tires (equipped on the test car). Maybe Sport Auto should have printed the Turbo S vs Gallardo comparison in a different issue, it was a bit unfortunate.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Given that - at least in Germany - the majority of GT3s is used as a track toy only, I would not see a lot of 997 GT3 owners being tempted to switch to the Turbos even though the Turbos would be faster on the track than the GT3 - I mean, we are talking about a weight difference of ca. 180 kilos between the cars.  I would be surprised to see more Turbos on the track in the future than GT3s. Therefore, I am looking very very much forward to seeing the new GT3 AND the Turbos on track next season, because for me, Porsche is and remains THE company building exciting sportcars to be used for frequent track driving.

d997h:

Given that - at least in Germany - the majority of GT3s is used as a track toy only, I would not see a lot of 997 GT3 owners being tempted to switch to the Turbos even though the Turbos would be faster on the track than the GT3 - I mean, we are talking about a weight difference of ca. 180 kilos between the cars.  I would be surprised to see more Turbos on the track in the future than GT3s. Therefore, I am looking very very much forward to seeing the new GT3 AND the Turbos on track next season, because for me, Porsche is and remains THE company building exciting sportcars to be used for frequent track driving.

True. Also there is a huge price difference. In the end, the higher weight of the 991 Turbo S would also actually create issues with the tires at some point if we are talking serious track racing here. Not to mention the fact that many are racing their GT3 in certain race series where a 991 Turbo S wouldn't even be allowed.

The GT3 is a fun toy for weekends with better daily driver capabilities than previous models. 

The 991 Turbo S is an Autobahn beast which can be driven on the track too from time to time without being slow (keep in mind that most Turbo S owners, like myself, will drive the car on street tires, not UHP tires...like the test car).

All is good. I think people are actually frustrated that none of the customer cars has been delivered yet. As soon as the new GT3 hits the streets, people will forget fast about the Supertest and about the nay sayers. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)