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Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
nberry said:
To my knowledge there are no "official" factory times for the Ring. Car manufacturers who build their cars for the Ring allow friendly journalist post times and the factory follows up with an unofficial time from a factory driver who exceeds the posted "official" time. It is all a game and the smart car manufacturers refuse to participate in the ruse. Ferrari is one.
Are you implying, for example, that sport auto is more friendly to Lamborghini than to Ferrari? Even the old Gallardo (500hp version, standard tires) was substantially quicker than the F430 (semi-slicks!) on the NBR.
Please get informed before writing further nonsense. sportauto is a well reputed source. They do 12 supertests p.a. Only few of them feature Porsche models.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Nberry
"I fully understand the frustration many of you have regarding buying a Ferrari. The system stinks but honestly I cannot come up with a better one. Very limited production cars create hellish marketing problems. No one has come up with a viable alternative."
I'd rather this than have oversupply and falling residuals. Porsche are running a fine line and sometimes I think they are 'too available'. I'd love to have a Ferrari but apart from the practical problem of getting one, if you want to avoid a big drop in value here in the UK you have to limit your mileage heavily, keep it mint and spend a fortune on maintenance-which rather limits it as a daily dirver-a role my P-car fills nicely. Still, every time I spec my next car and it adds up to Pounds90k plus- I admit I sneak a look at Red cars....
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
SciFrog said:
7:429 for the Corvette...
Isn't it interesting all these comparisons regarding 'ring time between the Z06 and the Turbo? And now Porsche claims a lap time that is 1 sec faster. Oh no, there's no conspiracy here.
Of course, the Porsche stooge from Sport Auto will posts a time that will be between 7:44 and 7:46 sec., so as to appear independent and official. Let the games begin...
Mar 21, 2006 9:15:08 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
nberry said:
Carlos, if you believe the Z06 will kill the 430 at the Ring then that undercuts your argument regarding the 997TT and 430.
No Nick, if you reread what I said you will see that I said that the Z06 will offer better ring performance than the F430 and cheaper, but thats all that it offers nothing more, everything else about it not very attractive (in terms of sophistication, practicality, plastic boby, pimp image, interior, safety in rain or slippery conditions, etc, etc). Therefore I would choose a F430 anyday of the week.
However that is not the case with the 997TT. The 997TT in turn is much faster in the ring than the F430 and therefore the real world, yet it also offers more than the F430 in many counts (practicality, ,safety, versatility, efficiency, performance, reliability, discreetness, etc). Other preffer other thing in a car like just the fact that its a Ferrari, or the attention it calls, or exclusivety, or Ferrari experience, etc. In that case the F430 is a better option. To each his own
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:
To my knowledge there are no "official" factory times for the Ring. Car manufacturers who build their cars for the Ring allow friendly journalist post times and the factory follows up with an unofficial time from a factory driver who exceeds the posted "official" time. It is all a game and the smart car manufacturers refuse to participate in the ruse. Ferrari is one.
Are you implying, for example, that sport auto is more friendly to Lamborghini than to Ferrari? Even the old Gallardo (500hp version, standard tires) was substantially quicker than the F430 (semi-slicks!) on the NBR.
Please get informed before writing further nonsense. sportauto is a well reputed source. They do 12 supertests p.a. Only few of them feature Porsche models.
What I am implying is Von Saurma and company Ring times are not indicative of what a car can do. You acknowledge that W. Rohrl will exceed Sport Auto time by a few seconds. What does that tell you? These times are inaccurate, worthless and a waste of time.
I find it amusing when the Z06 did 7:42 all the Porschephile howled impossible and used every explanation to disparage the time. Now that the 997TT does it in a faster time and again with far less performance capabilities than the Z06 nevertheless its time is accurate.
What a crock. Have you guy's no shame?
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
nberry said:
Thomas are you saying that the 997TT suspesion is that much better than the Ferrari which would enable it to beat the Ferrari around the Ring by 14 sec?
That is exactly what I am saying could be the case. I do not know the details of the standard setup, but same could potentially give an advantage to the 430 on the Ferrari testtrack.
Nick I have seen this time after time, that you on smaller tracks make minor changes offering seconds of difference.
I bet some of our more experienced track members can come with more details.
If we assume the Z06 did the 7:42 - Why do you think the GM engineers played with the suspension for 2 days (believe it was 2 days) as they claim not to have touched the engine nor tyres - I guess they were not just cleaning the car for the photograph
No offence Nick but how many hours have you spend behind the wheel on tracks. Let me be honest mine can be counted less than 20 if we talk cars (all in Porshes and Ferraris), well above 1000 in karting. Further I guess another 100 in the pits with pro race teams.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Well well. Amazing trend here. Porsche 997TT, Ferrari F430 and Corvette Z06 all mentioned in the same breath and all so very close in performance.
Comparing them all, I think Ferrari barely wins the style category, the Porsche wins a special award for desperate mechanical overkill and the Corvette runs off with awards for easiest to maintain and most reliable.
Comparing them all, I think Ferrari barely wins the style category, the Porsche wins a special award for desperate mechanical overkill and the Corvette runs off with awards for easiest to maintain and most reliable.
Mar 21, 2006 9:30:56 PM
- SoCalHoosier
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Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:
To my knowledge there are no "official" factory times for the Ring. Car manufacturers who build their cars for the Ring allow friendly journalist post times and the factory follows up with an unofficial time from a factory driver who exceeds the posted "official" time. It is all a game and the smart car manufacturers refuse to participate in the ruse. Ferrari is one.
Are you implying, for example, that sport auto is more friendly to Lamborghini than to Ferrari? Even the old Gallardo (500hp version, standard tires) was substantially quicker than the F430 (semi-slicks!) on the NBR.
Please get informed before writing further nonsense. sportauto is a well reputed source. They do 12 supertests p.a. Only few of them feature Porsche models.
What I am implying is Von Saurma and company Ring times are not indicative of what a car can do. You acknowledge that W. Rohrl will exceed Sport Auto time by a few seconds. What does that tell you? These times are inaccurate, worthless and a waste of time.
I find it amusing when the Z06 did 7:42 all the Porschephile howled impossible and used every explanation to disparage the time. Now that the 997TT does it in a faster time and again with far less performance capabilities than the Z06 nevertheless its time is accurate.
What a crock. Have you guy's no shame?
Because I've participated in those discussions I have to agree with Nick here...
It seems very suspect that when a light-weight car with more HP boasted a 7:429 everyone cried foul. (or flying start, or GM fabrication, blah blah)
Keep in mind guys that I love Porsches and wouldn't step foot into a Corvette even if it ran the ring in less than 7. I just don't understand some of you. How many of you actually work for Porsche or are major stockholders?
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
tso said:Quote:
nberry said:
Thomas are you saying that the 997TT suspesion is that much better than the Ferrari which would enable it to beat the Ferrari around the Ring by 14 sec?
That is exactly what I am saying could be the case. I do not know the details of the standard setup, but same could potentially give an advantage to the 430 on the Ferrari testtrack.
Nick I have seen this time after time, that you on smaller tracks make minor changes offering seconds of difference.
I bet some of our more experienced track members can come with more details.
If we assume the Z06 did the 7:42 - Why do you think the GM engineers played with the suspension for 2 days (believe it was 2 days) as they claim not to have touched the engine nor tyres - I guess they were not just cleaning the car for the photograph
Fathom this. All Z06s come STANDARD with a adjustable suspension. The engineers used the ring to establish the base settings for all cars sold to retail customers. The Corvette Z06 that you buy today comes with its suspension dialed in to the same settings as they finalized at the Ring.
I suggest you purchase a tankful of pure oxygen.
Its obvious that the fumes from your Karting experience have interfered with your logic or created a envy complex.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Fathom this. All Z06s come STANDARD with a adjustable suspension. The engineers used the ring to establish the base settings for all cars sold to retail customers. The Corvette Z06 that you buy today comes with its suspension dialed in to the same settings as they finalized at the Ring.
Yes, and full respect to these engineers for achieving such time (assuming it was done, running start etc) but could Ferrari do the same with the F430 and offer a NBR package ?
Thanks for the heads up Jim, you might be right the fumes from the karting days have made some damage, if nothing else it keeps me addicted to these fast machines whether P, F or Z.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
TSO, I think we are too preoccupied splitting the hairs about very close NBR times. Really now, two to five seconds over a 8 mile road circuit is so easy to lose or gain.
I doubt if Ferrari cares what its Ring times are. They make what they want to make and like it or leave it, its still a Ferrari.
Ring lap times should not be regarded as a message from some mythical automobile god. Depending on driver skill that day, track temperature,tire compound and wear,vehicle mileage and condition, you can get continiously different lap time outcomes.
What we have though is a class of cars now that reliably can lap the ring in under 8 minutes. And thats good for everybody.
I doubt if Ferrari cares what its Ring times are. They make what they want to make and like it or leave it, its still a Ferrari.
Ring lap times should not be regarded as a message from some mythical automobile god. Depending on driver skill that day, track temperature,tire compound and wear,vehicle mileage and condition, you can get continiously different lap time outcomes.
What we have though is a class of cars now that reliably can lap the ring in under 8 minutes. And thats good for everybody.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
devo said:Quote:
SciFrog said:
If the Ferraris were such killers at the NBR, why do you think Ferrari doesn't release factory times?
Don't get me wrong, the F430 or 599GTB are THE cars to have, they are just impossible to buy at a decent price in the US. As cheaper alternatives, the 997TT, 997GT3 or Z06 are awsome cars depending on your budget.
Ridiculous.
Why? Care to elaborate? Also please make sure you read the whole thread and don't clip comments out of context.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
tso said:Quote:
nberry said:
No offence Nick but how many hours have you spend behind the wheel on tracks. Let me be honest mine can be counted less than 20 if we talk cars (all in Porshes and Ferraris), well above 1000 in karting. Further I guess another 100 in the pits with pro race teams.
Thomas the one thing I will not do is boast about my driving skills.What mine or anyone's for that matter are irrelevant to the discussion. Every participant on this board understands there are many variables to track times.
However since you asked, suffice it is to say I have SUBSTANTIALLY more track experience then you but less karting. Additional I have ridden with some of the finest Porsche race drivers.
I will say this. Karting is excellent driving experience. So much so, I considered partnering with some individuals to open a karting track. Sadly, when we crunched the numbers, it just did not work out.
BTW, dialing in suspensions for track work is not what is the issue between the 997TT, Z06 or 430. We are discussing stock cars. You seem to be confused on this issue.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:Fathom this. All Z06s come STANDARD with a adjustable suspension. The engineers used the ring to establish the base settings for all cars sold to retail customers. The Corvette Z06 that you buy today comes with its suspension dialed in to the same settings as they finalized at the Ring.
Jim - adjustable in what sense? Ride height and alignment only, right? Not adjustable dampers or swaybars...
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
What we have though is a class of cars now that reliably can lap the ring in under 8 minutes. And thats good for everybody.
But Jim,
Sub-8:00 ain't good enough anymore, I mean, what if some envious 'Vette driver, frustrated at the lack of respect shown him on rennteam's 997 Turbo Board, instead pulls up at a stoplight next to me in a Radical SR3, boasting, I believe, sub-7:00 'Ring credentials, now what?
Even my tuned 996TTS 600HP projectile would have trouble, even in the straightline, as would my Noble M400, especially in tight corners. Wiedeking and his engineers need to tune up those VTG's, re-program that TipS to handle 1000Nm torque with pre-pre-boost, develop a quad turbo arrangement by linking two twin turbochargers in serial, convert every amalgam not thermally stressed into CF monococque, and get the beast to dip into the lower 7:00's.
Mar 22, 2006 3:03:02 AM
- Dock (Atlanta)
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Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
Turbo Al said:Wiedeking and his engineers need to tune up those VTG's, re-program that TipS to handle 1000Nm torque with pre-pre-boost, develop a quad turbo arrangement by linking two twin turbochargers in serial, convert every amalgam not thermally stressed into CF monococque, and get the beast to dip into the lower 7:00's.
Now you're talking! It's called the 998 Turbo. The only new Porsche I'd trade my 996 TT for.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
Turbo Al said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
What we have though is a class of cars now that reliably can lap the ring in under 8 minutes. And thats good for everybody.
But Jim,
Sub-8:00 ain't good enough anymore, I mean, what if some envious 'Vette driver, frustrated at the lack of respect shown him on rennteam's 997 Turbo Board, instead pulls up at a stoplight next to me in a Radical SR3, boasting, I believe, sub-7:00 'Ring credentials, now what?
Wiedeking and his engineers need to tune up those VTG's, re-program that TipS to handle 1000Nm torque with pre-pre-boost, develop a quad turbo arrangement by linking two twin turbochargers in serial, convert every amalgam not thermally stressed into CF monococque, and get the beast to dip into the lower 7:00's.
Once again, its fantasy encounter syndrome.
I suggest you keep the 996 Turbo and open a Hollywood Casting Agency instead. Its money better spent.
Just practice catch and release!
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Well well. Amazing trend here. Porsche 997TT, Ferrari F430 and Corvette Z06 all mentioned in the same breath and all so very close in performance.
Comparing them all, I think Ferrari barely wins the style category, the Porsche wins a special award for desperate mechanical overkill and the Corvette runs off with awards for easiest to maintain and most reliable.
I must say that I have alot of respect for the Chevy boys; they succeeded bringing the Corvette to the level of Porsche's and Ferrari's performance wise. Not an easy task if you look at the C5.
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:
To my knowledge there are no "official" factory times for the Ring. Car manufacturers who build their cars for the Ring allow friendly journalist post times and the factory follows up with an unofficial time from a factory driver who exceeds the posted "official" time. It is all a game and the smart car manufacturers refuse to participate in the ruse. Ferrari is one.
Are you implying, for example, that sport auto is more friendly to Lamborghini than to Ferrari? Even the old Gallardo (500hp version, standard tires) was substantially quicker than the F430 (semi-slicks!) on the NBR.
Please get informed before writing further nonsense. sportauto is a well reputed source. They do 12 supertests p.a. Only few of them feature Porsche models.
What I am implying is Von Saurma and company Ring times are not indicative of what a car can do. You acknowledge that W. Rohrl will exceed Sport Auto time by a few seconds. What does that tell you? These times are inaccurate, worthless and a waste of time.
Why that? They are the only meaningful times as the are done by the same driver on the same track
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
997 TT will be called the HE-MAn car once its started to be tested by magazines.
Already I can see it as car of the year in multiple car mags.
All this is of no importance....what important is how much WE, the drivers enjoy the car and the drive.
Some like red and then some don't !!!
Already I can see it as car of the year in multiple car mags.
All this is of no importance....what important is how much WE, the drivers enjoy the car and the drive.
Some like red and then some don't !!!
Mar 22, 2006 8:29:37 AM
- SoCalHoosier
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Reply to:
MKSGR
Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:
To my knowledge there are no "official" factory times for the Ring. Car manufacturers who build their cars for the Ring allow friendly journalist post times and the factory follows up with an unofficial time from a factory driver who exceeds the posted "official" time. It is all a game and the smart car manufacturers refuse to participate in the ruse. Ferrari is one.
Are you implying, for example, that sport auto is more friendly to Lamborghini than to Ferrari? Even the old Gallardo (500hp version, standard tires) was substantially quicker than the F430 (semi-slicks!) on the NBR.
Please get informed before writing further nonsense. sportauto is a well reputed source. They do 12 supertests p.a. Only few of them feature Porsche models.
What I am implying is Von Saurma and company Ring times are not indicative of what a car can do. You acknowledge that W. Rohrl will exceed Sport Auto time by a few seconds. What does that tell you? These times are inaccurate, worthless and a waste of time.
Why that? They are the only meaningful times as the are done by the same driver on the same track
But the driver's experience level with each of the cars is radically different. In other words, over the years, Von Saurma has driven a lot more 911s on the ring than all the Corvettes and Ferraris combined.
Mar 22, 2006 8:54:41 AM
- Crash
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Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:
To my knowledge there are no "official" factory times for the Ring. Car manufacturers who build their cars for the Ring allow friendly journalist post times and the factory follows up with an unofficial time from a factory driver who exceeds the posted "official" time. It is all a game and the smart car manufacturers refuse to participate in the ruse. Ferrari is one.
Are you implying, for example, that sport auto is more friendly to Lamborghini than to Ferrari? Even the old Gallardo (500hp version, standard tires) was substantially quicker than the F430 (semi-slicks!) on the NBR.
Please get informed before writing further nonsense. sportauto is a well reputed source. They do 12 supertests p.a. Only few of them feature Porsche models.
What I am implying is Von Saurma and company Ring times are not indicative of what a car can do. You acknowledge that W. Rohrl will exceed Sport Auto time by a few seconds. What does that tell you? These times are inaccurate, worthless and a waste of time.
Why that? They are the only meaningful times as the are done by the same driver on the same track
But the driver's experience level with each of the cars is radically different. In other words, over the years, Von Saurma has driven a lot more 911s on the ring than all the Corvettes and Ferraris combined.
Not really. Sport Auto doesn't test THAT many Porsches. You also have many other cars, front- and mid-engined, that are tested. Also, the 'Ring isn't the only location where he drives cars.
Mar 22, 2006 10:46:11 AM
- SoCalHoosier
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I prefer Porsche
I honestly find the 997TT far more desirable for my use than the 430.
If I were single wanting to get more attention especially from the opposite sex or to impress the general public, yes the F car will do a better job than the P car (or perhaps I may even pick the L car, as I find them better looking than the current F models).
However, these days, I just want to do my speeding quietly and in a discrete manner not to attract cops.
The 997TT with more front spoiler clearance, city driving friendly AWD, and the fact that it blends in with most cars on the road are good attributes for my use.
In fact, an AMG or M may even fit my bill better. Heck if I were serious about tracking I would pick the 997GT2/3 instead of the 997TT.
And is it not true only certain Ferraris models have a long waiting list? I doubt the 612s are that sought after, neither can I recall the 456, 550, or 575 commanding a premium at all.
Not sure about Ferrari banning the Enzo from NBR, but I do recall a few years back how Ferrari threatened to disallow users tracking to compare the F40 with the F50, fearing that the newer car would actually be inferior in performance?!
If I were single wanting to get more attention especially from the opposite sex or to impress the general public, yes the F car will do a better job than the P car (or perhaps I may even pick the L car, as I find them better looking than the current F models).
However, these days, I just want to do my speeding quietly and in a discrete manner not to attract cops.
The 997TT with more front spoiler clearance, city driving friendly AWD, and the fact that it blends in with most cars on the road are good attributes for my use.
In fact, an AMG or M may even fit my bill better. Heck if I were serious about tracking I would pick the 997GT2/3 instead of the 997TT.
And is it not true only certain Ferraris models have a long waiting list? I doubt the 612s are that sought after, neither can I recall the 456, 550, or 575 commanding a premium at all.
Not sure about Ferrari banning the Enzo from NBR, but I do recall a few years back how Ferrari threatened to disallow users tracking to compare the F40 with the F50, fearing that the newer car would actually be inferior in performance?!
Mar 22, 2006 11:02:29 AM
- Crash
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Re: Porsche claims 7.42 at NBR for 997 tt
Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
So they don't test the GT2, GT3, GT3RS, TT, TT S, C2, C2S, C4, C4S as different cars? (did I leave any out)
Not too many iterations of the Vette or Ferrari.
I said "not THAT many", not that there weren't many
. However, Von Saurma also drives cars in his private life (imagine that ), so I'm sure he has loads of experience with the various types of cars available. After all, a Supertest is just that, a test. It's not like he drives Porsches all day.
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