Crown

Common sense doesn't always apply when analyzing other people's readiness to assume risk. I've learnt that from driving on the Nürburgring 

--

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

KresoF1:

Few more figures from AMS test...

1433kg measured weight.

ISO and 18m test car the fastest overall. 991 GT3 is faster in curves then 997 GT3 RS 4.0, in fact as you will see in forthcoming Supertest faster around Ring as well.

Optional PCCBs produced the best braking power measured so far by AMS.

Only two minus things are not so good straight line stability and bad wet road traction(which is expected due to UHP tires).

i could not buy the new edition of AMS yet. could you please be more precise why they critizise straight line stability? i thought that it was  even far improved in the carrera....

peter

KresoF1:

Few more figures from AMS test...

1433kg measured weight.

ISO and 18m test car the fastest overall. 991 GT3 is faster in curves then 997 GT3 RS 4.0, in fact as you will see in forthcoming Supertest faster around Ring as well.

Optional PCCBs produced the best braking power measured so far by AMS.

Only two minus things are not so good straight line stability and bad wet road traction(which is expected due to UHP tires).

Was the car equipped with the Dunlop or the Michelin (Might make a minor but not decisive difference in term of wet road traction, presumably)? 

Dunlpos AFAIK.

Problem is that modern UHP tires are designed mainly for max dry road(or better race track) traction. They are pretty temperature sensitive as well.

@moo

problem are again I presume tires which are very sensitive indeed. Yes, 991 Carrera range have much improved straight line stability over 997.2 Carrera range. Just... 991 GT3 is having average straight line stability in comparison to 991 Carrera.

hmmm,  this is a bit bothersome when you want to use it as long range autobahn cruiser....

peter

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

BiTurbo:

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

well, i sort of agree but after AP's warnings not to do this i got a bit scared to upset all the traction control programming and chassis tuning. and porsche germany told me i would annihilate the warranty by changing over to MSS. this is one of the reasons why i bought a F458 instead of the 991 GT3.

p

moo:

BiTurbo:

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

well, i sort of agree but after AP's warnings not to do this i got a bit scared to upset all the traction control programming and chassis tuning. and porsche germany told me i would annihilate the warranty by changing over to MSS. this is one of the reasons why i bought a F458 instead of the 991 GT3.

p

Surely this is dealer urban myth spreading! MSS are a great tyre which will handle to 90+% of the MPSC on the street. I cant see how changing the brand of tyre can screw the composure of a vehicle or every modern vehcile on the planet would be at risk. When the M12C is supplied on the R compound larger wheel tyre option do they re-tune the TCS etc?

I'm with macca.  Moo, that's crap.  MSS on factory wheels and MPSC on the some track wheels, which you can drive to the track.  IIRC, the MPSC's are better in the dry than the Dunlops.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

macca993:

moo:

BiTurbo:

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

well, i sort of agree but after AP's warnings not to do this i got a bit scared to upset all the traction control programming and chassis tuning. and porsche germany told me i would annihilate the warranty by changing over to MSS. this is one of the reasons why i bought a F458 instead of the 991 GT3.

p

Surely this is dealer urban myth spreading! MSS are a great tyre which will handle to 90+% of the MPSC on the street. I cant see how changing the brand of tyre can screw the composure of a vehicle or every modern vehcile on the planet would be at risk. When the M12C is supplied on the R compound larger wheel tyre option do they re-tune the TCS etc?

probably you are right but the dealer enquired with porsche zuffenhausen and this is what they told him. he got pretty worried then about changing my tyres and recommended i just do it at an indy tyre shop.

anyway, i will retaliate by buying the GT3 RS in 2 years time and put MSS on it---)))

p

If its a non N rated tyre then they will not recommend it full stop. That said they cannot invalidate your warranty by UK law for fitting non N rated tyres unless that can prove that the failure of whatever you are claiming is directly caused by the fitment of N rated tyres. Essentially even a premature bearing failure would be very hard for Porsche to substanciate inside warranty period as a direct cause from the use of N rated tyres...

The fact you bought F458 vs a 991 GT3 based on this information alone may be of greater cause for concern than the tyres themselves LOL!

macca,

there was another reason....the fezza turned out to be a very good deal.....---))) don't forget there is a serious depression in europe...peter

Hey Peter. You should have said it was you! Yes your black F458 was an exceptional buy and a lovely car. Frankly Im jealous and as much as I love Porsche GT3 I would have also bought the F458 if I could get a deal like that and it was in my budget. Ive never owned a Fezza and thats the one I like. Watch those dealers though as they can be misleading....

moo:

BiTurbo:

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

well, i sort of agree but after AP's warnings not to do this i got a bit scared to upset all the traction control programming and chassis tuning. and porsche germany told me i would annihilate the warranty by changing over to MSS. this is one of the reasons why i bought a F458 instead of the 991 GT3.

p

How is the Ferrari in the rain then? What of speeds do you do during heavy rainfall?

I believe that these  UHP tyres are a huge handicap for people who want to enjoy their cars in all conditions. 

"Form follows function"

UHP tires are not too good in rain or in cold temperatures, so people need to be aware of that. I had Michelin Sport Cup on my 997 Turbo for over a year but I switched to normal street tires again. The reason? Not necessarily rain but the tires needed temperature to be fast (not that I didn't enjoy the "sliding" without much effort ) and they picked up dirt fast too, making them quite a challenge on dry pavement too sometimes. Also UHP tires need a specific chassis setup to work well, especially on cars which are not delivered with UHP tires from the factory. Speaking of the GT3, I am not aware of any non-UHP tire approved for the GT3 right now. I know that some people don't care about the N-rating from Porsche but keep in mind that using normal street tires also requires a proper chassis setup, maybe even some sort of adaptation (chassis-wise) for the rear wheel steering. I wouldn't mess with it until Porsche comes up with a solution.

Speaking of daily drivers: The new GT3 is still NOT a very good daily driver for various reasons, please do NOT make the mistake to believe that because of PDK, the GT3 is now a forgiving car which can be driven under all weather conditions. This would be a huge mistake. The GT3 is still a GT3, it has the same good or bad weather capabilities of all previous GT3 models.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

reginos:

 

How is the Ferrari in the rain then? What of speeds do you do during heavy rainfall?

I believe that these  UHP tyres are a huge handicap for people who want to enjoy their cars in all conditions. 

I would lie if I would say that I ever saw a Ferrari in bed weather over here.

One exception though: I once met a 458 with my Panamera Turbo S in full winter time, it was a lot of snow on the street. Not sure if the guy had snow tires (I guess he had, it is mandatory over here in Bavaria when there is snow on the street) but he was going VERY VERY slow, so he was soon gone.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Speaking of daily drivers: The new GT3 is still NOT a very good daily driver for various reasons, please do NOT make the mistake to believe that because of PDK, the GT3 is now a forgiving car which can be driven under all weather conditions. This would be a huge mistake. The GT3 is still a GT3, it has the same good or bad weather capabilities of all previous GT3 models.

The big difference that you are overlooking is that the 991 GT3 will benefit from the NEW Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyre (or the new Dunlop equivalent) which have evolved significantly in the last few years and which now incorporate much of the technology and experience gleaned on the Supersport tyre.

While this sort of tyre can't break the laws of physics, with sensible driving it is more than adequate for day-to-day usage on the road.

The Cup 2 has gained some advantages in rain and on dusty roads but don't expect wonders from it. This is still a UHP tire for a reason. Those who think that the new GT3 is a good daily driver will be disappointed. Unless you live somewhere in a region with well maintained streets, warm weather most of the year or only little rain and dust on the street.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

 Speaking of the GT3, I am not aware of any non-UHP tire approved for the GT3 right now. I know that some people don't care about the N-rating from Porsche but keep in mind that using normal street tires also requires a proper chassis setup, maybe even some sort of adaptation (chassis-wise) for the rear wheel steering. I wouldn't mess with it until Porsche comes up with a solution

I've never thought about this chassis set-up issue when changing from UHP to road tyres.

What about winter tyres. Do they require adjustments on the GT3 or because they have a different speed limit, this is not needed? 

"Form follows function"

KresoF1:

Dunlpos AFAIK.

Problem is that modern UHP tires are designed mainly for max dry road(or better race track) traction. They are pretty temperature sensitive as well.

@moo

problem are again I presume tires which are very sensitive indeed. Yes, 991 Carrera range have much improved straight line stability over 997.2 Carrera range. Just... 991 GT3 is having average straight line stability in comparison to 991 Carrera.

I have to correct myself since test car was equiped with Michelin Cup 2 tires. I wasnt at howm during the weekend and I mixed test cars...

BTW, Dunlops offer better wet traction then Michelins and therefor are the first choice for UK market(AFAIK all 991 GT3 for UK will get Dunlops).

Cup 2 is not nearly as good we wet handling according to my source as Dunlops, but Cup2 are marginally faster on(dry) Ring...

In the most ideal world, the chassis setup would depend on specific tires and even road conditions (narrow or wide, number of left/right curves, asphalt compound, etc. etc. etc.). I had the Michelin Cup chassis adaptation done by Marc Lieb's father at RUF, he is really great with this stuff. Amazing setup, tires were superb when they had the right temperature, chassis setup was perfect but not really suitable for normal streets.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

reginos:

moo:

BiTurbo:

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

well, i sort of agree but after AP's warnings not to do this i got a bit scared to upset all the traction control programming and chassis tuning. and porsche germany told me i would annihilate the warranty by changing over to MSS. this is one of the reasons why i bought a F458 instead of the 991 GT3.

p

How is the Ferrari in the rain then? What of speeds do you do during heavy rainfall?

I believe that these  UHP tyres are a huge handicap for people who want to enjoy their cars in all conditions. 

i drove the f458 yesterday in a downpour on a very bad highway. put it into wet mode and did 130-150 kph. it was totally composed. why not drive it in bad weather? it is a car and not a piece of jewlery. in nov i shall put winter tyres on. i plan to drive ot whenever i can. peter

moo:

reginos:

moo:

BiTurbo:

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

well, i sort of agree but after AP's warnings not to do this i got a bit scared to upset all the traction control programming and chassis tuning. and porsche germany told me i would annihilate the warranty by changing over to MSS. this is one of the reasons why i bought a F458 instead of the 991 GT3.

How is the Ferrari in the rain then? What of speeds do you do during heavy rainfall?

I believe that these  UHP tyres are a huge handicap for people who want to enjoy their cars in all conditions. 

i drove the f458 yesterday in a downpour on a very bad highway. put it into wet mode and did 130-150 kph. it was totally composed. why not drive it in bad weather? it is a car and not a piece of jewlery. in nov i shall put winter tyres on. i plan to drive ot whenever i can.

Isn't the Ferrari 458 Italia supplied with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres as standard equipment?

The Michelin PSS tyre is designed to be a much better overall performer in the wet, given a tread-wear rating of 300...

Michelin Pilot Super Sport -- Comparison Test by Car and Driver

 

First place: Monsters of Grip.

 

Service description: (94Y)*

UTQG tread-wear rating: 300 AA A*

Load: EXTRA

Performance category: MAX

Tread depth, in: 10/32

 

(July 2012)

 

Two years ago, Ferrari launched the 458 Italia a few months before Michelin released its Pilot Super Sport (PSS). Because Ferrari wanted the PSS for the 458 but Michelin didn’t want to preempt its own release, some of the early 458s were delivered on “Michelin Pilot Sport PS2” tires. But those PS2s were actually PSSs. It isn’t hard to understand why Ferrari wanted the “custom” PSSs for the 458.

 

We praised the PSS for its steering precision in the wet, second only to the Conti. Having the most lateral grip in the wet, at 0.86 g, helped close the lap-time gap with the Conti, too, but the Michelin got there with less finesse and feedback.

 

It felt firm and planted on the dry autocross and brought the steering wheel to life in our hands, as did the Yoko, the Hankook, and the Dunlop.

 

The Michelin PSS finished with the second-quickest lap in both the wet and dry autocrosses, just 0.1 and 0.2 second behind the leaders, respectively.

 

The PSS has the best balance of wet and dry performance we’ve ever experienced in testing. The minute compromises in each discipline make “super” a worthy part of its name. It’s our winner.

 

Michelin Pilot Super Sport -- Group Test -- Car and Driver link

 

IMHO, the Porsche 991 GT3 should be supplied with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres as standard equipment, with the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 available as a free option... 

Clearly, the Porsche 991 GT3 RS would be supplied with the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres as standard, with the Michelin Pilot Super Sport available as a free option... 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

moo:

reginos:

moo:

BiTurbo:

For long range or daily use, switch to Super Sport tires and do not wait or rely on Porsche's N-Rating  tires propaganda 10k on mine and I'm still alive and enjoying it

well, i sort of agree but after AP's warnings not to do this i got a bit scared to upset all the traction control programming and chassis tuning. and porsche germany told me i would annihilate the warranty by changing over to MSS. this is one of the reasons why i bought a F458 instead of the 991 GT3.

How is the Ferrari in the rain then? What of speeds do you do during heavy rainfall?

I believe that these  UHP tyres are a huge handicap for people who want to enjoy their cars in all conditions. 

i drove the f458 yesterday in a downpour on a very bad highway. put it into wet mode and did 130-150 kph. it was totally composed. why not drive it in bad weather? it is a car and not a piece of jewlery. in nov i shall put winter tyres on. i plan to drive ot whenever i can.

Isn't the Ferrari 458 Italia supplied with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres as standard equipment?

The Michelin PSS tyre is designed to be a much better overall performer in the wet, given a tread-wear rating of 300...

Michelin Pilot Super Sport -- Comparison Test by Car and Driver

 

First place: Monsters of Grip.

 

Service description: (94Y)*

UTQG tread-wear rating: 300 AA A*

Load: EXTRA

Performance category: MAX

Tread depth, in: 10/32

 

(July 2012)

 

Two years ago, Ferrari launched the 458 Italia a few months before Michelin released its Pilot Super Sport (PSS). Because Ferrari wanted the PSS for the 458 but Michelin didn’t want to preempt its own release, some of the early 458s were delivered on “Michelin Pilot Sport PS2” tires. But those PS2s were actually PSSs. It isn’t hard to understand why Ferrari wanted the “custom” PSSs for the 458.

 

We praised the PSS for its steering precision in the wet, second only to the Conti. Having the most lateral grip in the wet, at 0.86 g, helped close the lap-time gap with the Conti, too, but the Michelin got there with less finesse and feedback.

 

It felt firm and planted on the dry autocross and brought the steering wheel to life in our hands, as did the Yoko, the Hankook, and the Dunlop.

 

The Michelin PSS finished with the second-quickest lap in both the wet and dry autocrosses, just 0.1 and 0.2 second behind the leaders, respectively.

 

The PSS has the best balance of wet and dry performance we’ve ever experienced in testing. The minute compromises in each discipline make “super” a worthy part of its name. It’s our winner.

 

Michelin Pilot Super Sport -- Group Test -- Car and Driver link

 

IMHO, the Porsche 991 GT3 should be supplied with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres as standard equipment, with the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 available as a free option... 

Clearly, the Porsche 991 GT3 RS would be supplied with the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres as standard, with the Michelin Pilot Super Sport available as a free option... 

 

yes, my car came with MPSS tyres. i agree with you on how the GT3 should be equipped but apparently porsche is after the best possible ring time.

i do not know where the myth about ferraris being sunny-weather cars comes from. maybe it was like this two car-generations ago, but certainly not anymore. it is utter nonsense to say that the F458 cannot be driven everyday, just see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfQhKOB2WWU

i would expect similar capabilities of the GT3, if equipped with appropriate tyres.

btw, my C4S 997 gen 2 was horrible under heavy rain on the highway. the front moved in all kinds of directions at random moments, it was really scary. 

and just to add, except in rare circumstances, 4WD does not prevent aquaplaning.

peter

ps: probably the myth was spread by ferrari drivers. there is an interesting thread on ferrarichat started by a 458 owner in california who has removed the wipers. luckily he was called to order by other forum members....---))

....it never rains in southern california.......

peter

Some nice pics of Yellow GT3:

http://openers.jp/car/exclusive_auto_collection/porsche/photo_911_gt3_impression_kawamura_38488.html?num=25

RC:

The Cup 2 has gained some advantages in rain and on dusty roads but don't expect wonders from it. This is still a UHP tire for a reason. Those who think that the new GT3 is a good daily driver will be disappointed. Unless you live somewhere in a region with well maintained streets, warm weather most of the year or only little rain and dust on the street.

Christian, you state the GT3 is not a good daily driver which is a bit alarming. The question is then, what frequency and range of use do you consider "daily driver use", after all, it's for road use first then track if it takes your fancy.

The reason why I say "alarming" is because i have put down my first 10k deposit and as you guys probably know this then will be my first Porsche. Holy moly, I'm expecting it to be a firm ride but not unusable.

Thoughts appreciated guys, didn't go for the 911s because I wanted something a bit more exclusive and special, not to mention the better residual factor on the GT3.

Tia...

throt

"I didn't do it"

I believe Christian is overstating the case that the GT3 is not a DD car. No doubt it is designed for performance but Porsche in its effort to expand the GT3 client base has made it more complaint for DD. Will it ride like a Audi? No but it will ride close to a 458 in DD mode.

nberry:

I believe Christian is overstating the case that the GT3 is not a DD car. No doubt it is designed for performance but Porsche in its effort to expand the GT3 client base has made it more complaint for DD. Will it ride like a Audi? No but it will ride close to a 458 in DD mode.

i think so too. my only qualms were the tyres, lack of parking sensors and rearview cam. AMS claims a harsh ride on the GT3 but all other reviews said the opposite.

peter

A "daily driver" IMHO requires versatility for a variety of purposes that vary widely from individual to individual.  These tasks may include grocery shopping, picking up laundry, takeout food at the end of the day, fetching children from whatever and whenever, in addition to the daily drive to and from work.  IMHO, those tasks are not what I would choose to relegate to any Porsche sports car, let alone a GT3, which I believe was conceived for less mundane purposes. All my Porsches have been weekend only cars, with the only requirement being that I can take my wife for an evening drive or to dinner in reasonable comfort. A friend had a 996 GT3 which, IMHO, could not even serve the miminal purpose of an evening drive with the wife as it was simply and exclusively focused on track performance--stiff suspension and steering/braking/shifting that required truly undivided attention and effort.  The 997 GT3 was more suited to minimal off track duties and I suspect the 991 GT3 will be similar, but they are not grocery getters or honey do list vehicles, again IMHO.  Fair weather, light traffic, and a few grins and thrills is the sum total of my expectations for the car. By the way, I do not intend to track the car beyond a few sessions with Orbit Racing at our local venue. To paraphrase Sir Edmund Hilary, why own one? Because I can and choose to.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill