Crown

Nick, you make a lot of sense but how you do explain the Turbo and Turbo S. MY understanding there is a waiting list on both cars. The difference is hp is reflected in the price. It is conceivable just like the GT3 and GT3 RS,in  the GT2 and GT2RS Porsche sees a market for both cars with substantial margins.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

Personally, I would rather a GT2 than a GT2RS for a daily.  The RS is a bit wild looking for every day use around town.    

nberry:

Nick, you make a lot of sense but how you do explain the Turbo and Turbo S. MY understanding there is a waiting list on both cars. The difference is hp is reflected in the price. It is conceivable just like the GT3 and GT3 RS,in  the GT2 and GT2RS Porsche sees a market for both cars with substantial margins.

The thing is the Turbo and Turbo S are mainstream cars, but the GT2/RS caters to a much smaller audience and therefore client base, the smallest in all the model lineup, more than the GT3/RS even because of the price tag and radical nature, so developing two different models that overlap so much to share that small purse of potential customers doesn't make that much sense and specially so late in the life cycle, there is barely any time to present and sell models till the 992 comes along. I don't think it makes sense for Porsche to get into a GT2, and will rather will focus on a GT2RS flagship with a huge premium, they already have little time to sell them before they have to shut down production and make way for the 992. You never know of course, but tend to I agree with Nick, don't think there will be a GT2, and they will skip directly to the GT2RS here.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos already explained some of it.

But to get back onto you original question Nick, about the Turbo/Turbo S.

Think of the Turbo S not as a separate model, but a trim package. While the Turbo S is a bit higher in price, Porsche throw in a lot of stuff as standard, PCCB and such, after factoring those standard equipment the price difference is not that great anymore. Consider the extra HP just as a bonus from Porsche. This hold truth for the 911 range, the Cayenne and the Panamera. (Well for the incoming Panamera Turbo S Porsche will break from tradition and the Turbo S will be very different than the regular Turbo)

Realistically, how many GT2/GT2RS the market can absorb? 2000 cars? Or maybe less. An educated guess puts the GT2/GT2RS firmly in the price category of Ferrari and Lamborghini, both of which are much more attractive to some people with their exotic styling. Porsche really don't need to limit the production, the small target audience will take care of the small planned production volume anyway. Granted, the North American 918 VIPs will all take a car, but that's less than 300 total anyway. 

To earn the maximum amount of profit per car, Porsche would naturally produce the highest margin car. With the exotic material roof and fenders developed for the GT3RS, one would naturally expect the GT2RS to have the carbon fenders and the magnesium roof from the GT3RS, Would Porsche cheap out and go back to steel on the GT2 just so they can 'price' the cars correctly and create more profit margin?

Admittedly, I do not have a line to the insider information on the car, I am just trying use some common sense and business logic to come to my conclusion. 

Carlos, Nick, you both make good points. But I believe the business model for all Porsche's has changed as a result of the VW diesel fiasco. The hemorrghing is continuing and getting worse. The Porsche GT lineup is a huge money maker. The .2GT3 will not be  a limited model. Porsche will sell as many as they can. The GT2 has a small customer base and Porsche will fill the demand. The GT2 RS will attract those outside of Porsche who are looking for an investment or a highly focus track car which will challenge the 918 for less than 1/2 the price. 

Like you, I am clueless as to what Porsche will do. Normally, I would agree with your position but for the financial abyss VW is facing.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

GT2RS is only an investment if it's a numbered car.

Only reason to have a RS and no RS version might be to have a more "street" version of a car and a true race sport version with the RS. Producing a car with two different price points might not be an issue at all as potential buyers for cars in that range probably don't mind of spending 20k more or less. 

Whoopsy:

GT2RS is only an investment if it's a numbered car.

 

My suspicion is that several thousand buyers of the new GT2RS will find this out only later...

What might be of interest is a GT2 with "normal" GT2 rear wing etc. Then there could be the GT2 RS with the enormous rear wing and maybe not much more power - made for track use primarily. The normal GT2 could be used for the traditional mix of street/track driving. Would suit the needs of many traditional GT2 buyers very well, I feel 

MKSGR:

 

What might be of interest is a GT2 with "normal" GT2 rear wing etc. Then there could be the GT2 RS with the enormous rear wing and maybe not much more power - made for track use primarily. The normal GT2 could be used for the traditional mix of street/track driving. Would suit the needs of many traditional GT2 buyers very well, I feel 

This is the only possibility IMO. GT2 market since the inception has only been sub 1500 units worldwide, now we know this will be inflated for this model because of the current hype in the world market although people must surely be realising that the 991GT3RS was produced in large numbers and this (premium price) bubble will burst at some point.

I am betting it will be a non numbered RS model (like the 3RS) only with all the tech and high price and produced in 3RS type numbers.

I am quite amazed reading UK forums just how many people are buying special Porsche models, encouraged by the premiums they have been attracting and financing their way into these models in what I would be consider to be ridiculous ways (although when I read what RC pays for his cars I realise I am from a different generation or maybe just financially immature) there are many GT4 owners possibly the majority in the UK who would not be driving these cars if they had a "normal depreciation curve". 

So the GT2RS will be affected by this current high demand from people who can pay the monthly payments and expect to be able to drive the car for a few months and take a profit, it will be fascinating to see how this rolls out but I wouldn't be surprised if there may be some "good value" depreciated GT3/2 RSs somewhere down the line in Europe if the economies turn which is a high possibility.

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

If you take a GT2/3 & RS's model depreciation into consideration to normal 911's - it's still the best model to have. As you said the numbers of 997RS or even 991 GT3's are still very small considering the 1/3 is in the US - 1/3 in Middle-East and Asia - and 1/3 in Europe. I personally would never buy something different. Here in CH even GT3 Prices are very solid

BjoernB:

If you take a GT2/3 & RS's model depreciation into consideration to normal 911's - it's still the best model to have

This wasn't the case for GT2s. forget the 993 as it was extremely low numbers and considered very specialist at the time but even then I recall there was no premium on them. The 996 and 7 GT2 depreciated quite heavily, at one point I bought my GT2 off my company for £65K (approved by the tax man) - This current hype/bubble is a new phenomenon it is been fuelled by cheap money and lots of group think....

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

You're correct - I was referring more to the GT3 models - but 997 GT2 also took a big hit here but I also think that it's original LP was way to high.  However, 996 GT2 and even 997 are on the rise again  for sure.

BjoernB:

You're correct - I was referring more to the GT3 models - but 997 GT2 also took a big hit here but I also think that it's original LP was way to high.  However, 996 GT2 and even 997 are on the rise again  for sure.

What is interesting is that in the UK the list price was actually quite low (relative to other markets) @ about £130K yet despite this they only managed to find homes for 62 units, this was mainly due to the financial crisis which was bang in the middle of the launch but the 62 units (or the ~110 996GT2) is much more indicative of the real demand for this model (in the UK), if the hype/bubble stays where it is there will be similar demand as the GT3 models but if there is a wobble or worse (I was just reading a scary article about ECBs Target 2 payment system )  Porsche will struggle to sell more than 100 991GT2s in the UK and they will depreciate !

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

TB993tt:

So the GT2RS will be affected by this current high demand from people who can pay the monthly payments and expect to be able to drive the car for a few months and take a profit, it will be fascinating to see how this rolls out but I wouldn't be surprised if there may be some "good value" depreciated GT3/2 RSs somewhere down the line in Europe if the economies turn which is a high possibility.

The guys who buy cars on "monthly payments" won't be able to touch the GT2RS. They will go to the top customers and big supercar speculators at a premium, only to be resold to very rich clients at even bigger premiums (EUR 50K+). There's no such thing as a good value RS car on the secondary market. Even the mass produced GT3 RS. You can't and will never ever be able to buy this car at "good value". The only way to get a good price for an RS car is getting it new at price list. 

The times when you could just call you dealer and order a 997 GT3 4.0 RS or a GT2 RS are gone. It would take a serious financial disaster to correct the market and yet it won't affect the top 1%.

I am pretty sure that there won't be GT2 just as there won't be a .2 GT3 RS. 

Herbaliser:

 

The times when you could just call you dealer and order a 997 GT3 4.0 RS or a GT2 RS are gone. It would take a serious financial disaster to correct the market and yet it won't affect the top 1%.

I would argue the opposite is true... These times will be back soon. Always remember: when the crowd feels things can only continue into one direction the turnaround is very close 

MKSGR:

Herbaliser:

 

The times when you could just call you dealer and order a 997 GT3 4.0 RS or a GT2 RS are gone. It would take a serious financial disaster to correct the market and yet it won't affect the top 1%.

I would argue the opposite is true... These times will be back soon. Always remember: when the crowd feels things can only continue into one direction the turnaround is very close 

I agree with Marcus, this hype/bubble is a recent thing in the UK a 997GT2 RS could be purchased reasonably easily (I had an allocation as did others I know who were not particularly well connected and one guy I know got one by phoning around) the 997GT2RS depreciated initially, a pal sold his for a £20K loss but then it got caught up in the recent surge, a turnaround can happen very quickly.....

I keep telling my OPC to remember that I helped them out by buying my 997GT2 in the heights of the slump December 2008 and those times could happen again in a flash....... probably won't make the slightest difference to me being offered one tho'  

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

TB993tt:

MKSGR:

Herbaliser:

 

The times when you could just call you dealer and order a 997 GT3 4.0 RS or a GT2 RS are gone. It would take a serious financial disaster to correct the market and yet it won't affect the top 1%.

I would argue the opposite is true... These times will be back soon. Always remember: when the crowd feels things can only continue into one direction the turnaround is very close 

I agree with Marcus, this hype/bubble is a recent thing in the UK a 997GT2 RS could be purchased reasonably easily (I had an allocation as did others I know who were not particularly well connected and one guy I know got one by phoning around) the 997GT2RS depreciated initially, a pal sold his for a £20K loss but then it got caught up in the recent surge, a turnaround can happen very quickly.....

I keep telling my OPC to remember that I helped them out by buying my 997GT2 in the heights of the slump December 2008 and those times could happen again in a flash....... probably won't make the slightest difference to me being offered one tho'  

Some of the most shameless "cashing in" on GT4s and GT3RS 's was done by OPCs.

crayphile:

TB993tt:

MKSGR:

Herbaliser:

 

The times when you could just call you dealer and order a 997 GT3 4.0 RS or a GT2 RS are gone. It would take a serious financial disaster to correct the market and yet it won't affect the top 1%.

I would argue the opposite is true... These times will be back soon. Always remember: when the crowd feels things can only continue into one direction the turnaround is very close 

I agree with Marcus, this hype/bubble is a recent thing in the UK a 997GT2 RS could be purchased reasonably easily (I had an allocation as did others I know who were not particularly well connected and one guy I know got one by phoning around) the 997GT2RS depreciated initially, a pal sold his for a £20K loss but then it got caught up in the recent surge, a turnaround can happen very quickly.....

I keep telling my OPC to remember that I helped them out by buying my 997GT2 in the heights of the slump December 2008 and those times could happen again in a flash....... probably won't make the slightest difference to me being offered one tho'  

Some of the most shameless "cashing in" on GT4s and GT3RS 's was done by OPCs.

Thats it though isn't it. The OPC's then tell you that your chances are high of getting an allocation because your a keeper and not a flipper. But, they would need the flippers to make those cashing in's, go figure.......

--

throt

"I Have Done It!".

991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.

nberry:

Carlos, Nick, you both make good points. But I believe the business model for all Porsche's has changed as a result of the VW diesel fiasco. The hemorrghing is continuing and getting worse. The Porsche GT lineup is a huge money maker. The .2GT3 will not be  a limited model. Porsche will sell as many as they can. The GT2 has a small customer base and Porsche will fill the demand. The GT2 RS will attract those outside of Porsche who are looking for an investment or a highly focus track car which will challenge the 918 for less than 1/2 the price. 

Like you, I am clueless as to what Porsche will do. Normally, I would agree with your position but for the financial abyss VW is facing.

As far as I heard, no Porsche models have been removed from the future planning list, unlike in other brands within the VW Group. Porsche is VW's cash cow, no need to change something for now.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

I wouldn't refer to the latest financial crisis as an example how the supercar market got affected. It was all fake. It was described as the worst financial crisis since the big depression and yes, there was a lot of stress...for a year or two when 959's were offered for EUR 200K, Carrera GT's for 350k (almost new) and so on. My RS6 order got delayed because Quatro GMBH closed for a month.

And then in just two years every single premium car maker got back to growth and hit all time production records. Vintage car auctions smashed all records. And the price of limited production super and hyper cars...we all know what happened. 

So if someone is stupid enough to buy supercars with leverage...he'll be wiped out on the next blink of the stock market which will happen soon - we are in the second longest bull market in history. But there also have never been so many cash rich people on the planet, so willing to spoil themselves with toys and unless a doomsday comes the demand for limited production Porsches is guaranteed. You just have to keep enough distance from the margin call.

TB993tt:

This wasn't the case for GT2s. forget the 993 as it was extremely low numbers and considered very specialist at the time but even then I recall there was no premium on them

Agreed - as I remember it there wasn't a premium on the 993 GT2s and in fact they did depreciate just like any Porsche did back then initially. I was offered a '96 993 GT2 in 2001 for about €115K which was around 25% off MSRP...

Herbaliser:

 

And then in just two years every single premium car maker got back to growth and hit all time production records. Vintage car auctions smashed all records. And the price of limited production super and hyper cars...we all know what happened. 

 

 

That happened not after the world-wide crisis but more in 2014, 2015, 2016. In 2014 cars like the GT2RS still sold below list price. The high prices for mass produced cars (even the GT2RS is not what I would call rare) only increased recently. They will drop back to where they came from... Too many people buy/own these cars just because the believe (falsely) they invested in a "safe" asset... As soon as this perception changes the whole market changes. It has been always like this. Don't follow the crowd, because if you follow the crowd for too long you end up in disaster 

Tend to agree with TB993tt, intrinsic market for the GT2 is prob in the order of 1500 units and if anything this has scope to go down due to increased competition in this price range from both classics and mclaren, so the "fill" would seem to be the speculating crowd. Really need to buy these cars with the mindset that they are depreciating assets and everything Else to the contrary is a bonus. The annoying thing though is the spec ulative surge is meaning those of us purists that want to buy a GT car are having to wait longer. 

Whoopsy:

Granted, the North American 918 VIPs will all take a car...

I wonder how many garage spaces these 918 owners have?

I always have this discussion with my car friends.  Buying more cars is never a problem, but the limited number of garage spaces at our house is.  I do not prefer to park my cars elsewhere as I want to see them and use them whenever I feel like it.

Having said this, if my chance of buying a .2GT3 comes up, I will steal one of my Mom's garage to park my RS.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

My downstairs neighbor only has two parking spaces, since its a building in the centre of the city there is limited parking for the flat owners, I have two as well right next though mine are closed of with a personal door inside the underground parking, and so he has to rotate the cars he parks there every week to be able to use them (Bentley, R8, 911, Ferraris, Aston, Mercs, Lotus, NSX, etc) and has to keep all the ones he is not using offsite 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Targa Tim:

Whoopsy:

Granted, the North American 918 VIPs will all take a car...

I wonder how many garage spaces these 918 owners have?

I always have this discussion with my car friends.  Buying more cars is never a problem, but the limited number of garage spaces at our house is.  I do not prefer to park my cars elsewhere as I want to see them and use them whenever I feel like it.

Having said this, if my chance of buying a .2GT3 comes up, I will steal one of my Mom's garage to park my RS.

Also, how many will keep buying cars if a car burns money (after the bubble has bursted)?

MKSGR:

Targa Tim:

Whoopsy:

Granted, the North American 918 VIPs will all take a car...

I wonder how many garage spaces these 918 owners have?

I always have this discussion with my car friends.  Buying more cars is never a problem, but the limited number of garage spaces at our house is.  I do not prefer to park my cars elsewhere as I want to see them and use them whenever I feel like it.

Having said this, if my chance of buying a .2GT3 comes up, I will steal one of my Mom's garage to park my RS.

Also, how many will keep buying cars if a car burns money (after the bubble has bursted)?

I like you have been saying that it always ends in tears, but when? As long as interest rates stay as artificially low as they are then the "Cayman GT4 car collectors" can keep getting cheap debt

crayphile:

MKSGR:

Targa Tim:

Whoopsy:

Granted, the North American 918 VIPs will all take a car...

I wonder how many garage spaces these 918 owners have?

I always have this discussion with my car friends.  Buying more cars is never a problem, but the limited number of garage spaces at our house is.  I do not prefer to park my cars elsewhere as I want to see them and use them whenever I feel like it.

Having said this, if my chance of buying a .2GT3 comes up, I will steal one of my Mom's garage to park my RS.

Also, how many will keep buying cars if a car burns money (after the bubble has bursted)?

I like you have been saying that it always ends in tears, but when? As long as interest rates stay as artificially low as they are then the "Cayman GT4 car collectors" can keep getting cheap debt

To me it seems interest rates have bottomed out in general and first signs indicate increasing short term rates. But the truth is one never knows until it is too late 

MKSGR:

But the truth is one never knows until it is too late 

Its ironic that the only car I have had to pay over list for is a Porsche  - go figure .

It's not all about the money. I'm more interested in on how the GT2 RS will be to drive on track. Especially compared to GT3 RS. Faster, of course, but I find the N/A's less nervous and somewhat more balanced. But my experience in this field is limited.

Have any of you for example been able to fully comparing the 997's and if so, what's your findings?

And yes, I'm aiming to buy my self a GT2 RS and use it on track as much as possible. Dont even have a garage, just outdoor parking spaces and i live in the northpole. Guess I'm somewhat crazy, but what the heck, the world need my sort as well....