Jul 8, 2013 5:51:57 PM
- SuzyF
- Expert
- Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland
- Posts: 1306, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 7, 2013
- Reply to: Super Darius
Jul 8, 2013 5:51:57 PM
Jul 8, 2013 9:13:55 PM
Porsche 991 GT3 in white...
Porsche 991 GT3 in white -- Gallery Link
Porsche 991 GT3 in white -- Video Link
Jul 8, 2013 9:34:22 PM
2014 Porsche 911 GT3 First Drive...
2014 Porsche 911 GT3 First Drive -- Automobile Article Link
Jul 8, 2013 10:29:34 PM
Jul 9, 2013 1:49:45 AM
nberry:
In fact, you keep bumping into the fuel cutoff at the redline because of the engine’s willingness to show off its explosive low-friction, free-revving energy.
So there is protection against exceeding the rev limit.
A common feature with Bosch FI for at least fifteen years...of course, if one, with a manual, downshifts into a wrong gear, damage is done to the valve train.
Jul 9, 2013 9:45:22 AM
CGX car nut:
nberry:
In fact, you keep bumping into the fuel cutoff at the redline because of the engine’s willingness to show off its explosive low-friction, free-revving energy.
So there is protection against exceeding the rev limit.
A common feature with Bosch FI for at least fifteen years...of course, if one, with a manual, downshifts into a wrong gear, damage is done to the valve train.
You won't believe how many times I actually witnessed that and every time, it "hurts" the same (I almost cry when I witness this stuff).
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)
Jul 9, 2013 2:44:47 PM
CGX car nut:
nberry:
In fact, you keep bumping into the fuel cutoff at the redline because of the engine’s willingness to show off its explosive low-friction, free-revving energy.
So there is protection against exceeding the rev limit.
A common feature with Bosch FI for at least fifteen years...of course, if one, with a manual, downshifts into a wrong gear, damage is done to the valve train.
Actually, all 911's have had some sort of feature like this for at least 44 years (it used to be done by mechanical means inside the distributor - when the weighted and sprung rotor spun fast enough, the centrifugal force of the rotor would make it lose contact with the cap, stopping the ignition). There was a separate rotor for each model of 911 (T, E, S, etc.) - each with its own redline.
--
73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550
The original reports on the 991GT3 were that the car could exceed rev limits. I found it puzzling that would allow that and the reason for me highlighting the remark.
FWIW, I am having serious reservations buying this car because of the time delay in getting it. I have second quarter 2014 allocation which means I probably will get the car a year from now if not later. Hell, I could buy a used one before then and at less than MSRP. Also, they may announce an updated version by then. Waiting a year for a car already in production is stupid.
nberry:
The original reports on the 991GT3 were that the car could exceed rev limits. I found it puzzling that would allow that and the reason for me highlighting the remark.
That would be puzzling and the only explanation I can see for that is that the protection circuit was too slow to respond to the mechanical situation (seems impossible with DFI - fuel delivery can be immediately ceased, even if enormous fuel pressure remains at the injector). I think this was just another case of erroneous reporting (like we have seen several times since the press has had access to the car).
And PDK will not allow "Money Shift" based on a computer algorithm (won't allow dowshift, if downshift would put the motor over 9k revs).
Can't imagine any situation that could confound this safeguard, outside of a computer or major hardware failure.
--
73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550
nberry:
The original reports on the 991GT3 were that the car could exceed rev limits. I found it puzzling that would allow that and the reason for me highlighting the remark.
FWIW, I am having serious reservations buying this car because of the time delay in getting it. I have second quarter 2014 allocation which means I probably will get the car a year from now if not later. Hell, I could buy a used one before then and at less than MSRP. Also, they may announce an updated version by then. Waiting a year for a car already in production is stupid.
You are getting nervous, don't you?
I don't think that the new GT3 engine will be permitted to exceed rev limits, I actually think that Porsche built in some sort of downshift error prevention, which should be possible with PDK. I cannot guarantee that though, this is just something I heard (Porsche apparently had to deal with a couple of downshift damages on GT3 models in the past and their legal challenges with customers, who think that Porsche should pay for their stupidity... )
I am sorry to hear about the delay with your car, why don't you try a different dealer? The US is a big country... Also maybe there is someone who already has an early allocation and wants to get rid of it? There are always possibilities if you badly want something, you know that.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)
Christian, you're right. I could call around and may find something sooner. One individual has already done this and got a build date in December. Has never owned a Porsche before. He found one after calling 30 dealers. I am not sure I want to do that. I suspect other have done this as well and early builds are gone.
Porsche decided for what ever reason to put the US buyers last not only for allocations but build dates. As a result, many of us will be forced to wait more than a year to get a car. NO doubt Porsche will sell all the GT3 allocations. This would have been my fifth Porsche in less than 10 years. I was planning to turn it in within two years and get another Porsche.
Now I honestly do not know what I will do. I have been speaking with my dealer and they try to give me hope for earlier delivery based on their experience that people drop out. We shall see. My patience is limited.
I don't understand why Porsche doesn't build more GT3 and resolve the problem. FWIW, even Ferrari acknowledged that their clients should not have to wait one year to get a car. The GT3 is not a Ferrari.
nberry:
The original reports on the 991GT3 were that the car could exceed rev limits. I found it puzzling that would allow that and the reason for me highlighting the remark.
I think that was an issue of poor English translation by AP. Practically every car I've owned came equipped with a fuel/ignition cuttoff at redline to protect the engine. It would be insanity by any sports car manufacturer to remove the rev limiter.
nberry:
FWIW, I am having serious reservations buying this car because of the time delay in getting it. I have second quarter 2014 allocation which means I probably will get the car a year from now if not later. Hell, I could buy a used one before then and at less than MSRP. Also, they may announce an updated version by then. Waiting a year for a car already in production is stupid.
Certainly understand but based on the number of cars coming into the US Q4 and Q1, I highly doubt you'll get a used one below MSRP. I was number 2 on the list for the 997 GT3. I sold it after 6 months at MSRP, and I could haven't gotten 5k above but it was a quick sale to a local guy.
991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff
nberry:
This would have been my fifth Porsche in less than 10 years. I was planning to turn it in within two years and get another Porsche.
I don't understand why Porsche doesn't build more GT3 and resolve the problem. FWIW, even Ferrari acknowledged that their clients should not have to wait one year to get a car. The GT3 is not a Ferrari.
Two year only? To get which one?
Jul 9, 2013 4:07:20 PM
Grant:
CGX car nut:
nberry:
In fact, you keep bumping into the fuel cutoff at the redline because of the engine’s willingness to show off its explosive low-friction, free-revving energy.
So there is protection against exceeding the rev limit.
A common feature with Bosch FI for at least fifteen years...of course, if one, with a manual, downshifts into a wrong gear, damage is done to the valve train.
Actually, all 911's have had some sort of feature like this for at least 44 years (it used to be done by mechanical means inside the distributor - when the weighted and sprung rotor spun fast enough, the centrifugal force of the rotor would make it lose contact with the cap, stopping the ignition). There was a separate rotor for each model of 911 (T, E, S, etc.) - each with its own redline.
--
73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550
This was true with many cars with a mechanical distributor; however, mechanical governors tend to lag. Electronic fuel injection typically needs RPM as an input so simple control logic is readily implemented to prevent the engine from exceeding its maximum RPM. Note that the never exceed or maximum RPM is not always at the redline displayed on the tachometer.
Jul 9, 2013 4:50:51 PM
CGX car nut:
Note that the never exceed or maximum RPM is not always at the redline displayed on the tachometer.
Right, it's usually about 200rpm higher, but I think in the case of the GT3, they really wanted to stretch for 9k and I think the redline here is a hard limit (fuel cutoff same as redline).
73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550
Jul 9, 2013 5:37:31 PM
Grant:
CGX car nut:
Note that the never exceed or maximum RPM is not always at the redline displayed on the tachometer.
Right, it's usually about 200rpm higher, but I think in the case of the GT3, they really wanted to stretch for 9k and I think the redline here is a hard limit (fuel cutoff same as redline).
Very easy to implement through the ECU, DI, and the use of PDK. Valve float could become a significant issue at RPMs much higher than 9,000.
I am not sure I agree that the car will hold its price.This GT3 is different in that it is only PDK. Many after driving it for a while may find the PDK too placid and not sufficiently engaging enough for their taste.
I anticipate by next summer several with low mileage will be available at less than MSRP. Meanwhile, I sit and twiddle my thumbs hoping for an earlier build date.
Jul 9, 2013 7:01:15 PM
nberry:
I am not sure I agree that the car will hold its price.This GT3 is different in that it is only PDK. Many after driving it for a while may find the PDK too placid and not sufficiently engaging enough for their taste.
I anticipate by next summer several with low mileage will be available at less than MSRP. Meanwhile, I sit and twiddle my thumbs hoping for an earlier build date.
Chief cheerleader vacillates on Porsche's PDK decision.
Jul 9, 2013 7:14:14 PM
CGX car nut:
nberry:
I am not sure I agree that the car will hold its price.This GT3 is different in that it is only PDK. Many after driving it for a while may find the PDK too placid and not sufficiently engaging enough for their taste.
I anticipate by next summer several with low mileage will be available at less than MSRP. Meanwhile, I sit and twiddle my thumbs hoping for an earlier build date.
Chief cheerleader vacillates on Porsche's PDK decision.
Has nothing to do with my view of PDK. There are several stated buyers of the 991GT3 who owned prior model GT3's and would have preferred MT. They will give PDK a chance and some will opt out after short period of time. By next summer there will several on the market at less than MSRP because by then the wait will be six months or so for a new one.
Jul 9, 2013 7:25:13 PM
nberry:
CGX car nut:
nberry:
I am not sure I agree that the car will hold its price.This GT3 is different in that it is only PDK. Many after driving it for a while may find the PDK too placid and not sufficiently engaging enough for their taste.
I anticipate by next summer several with low mileage will be available at less than MSRP. Meanwhile, I sit and twiddle my thumbs hoping for an earlier build date.
Chief cheerleader vacillates on Porsche's PDK decision.
Has nothing to do with my view of PDK. There are several stated buyers of the 991GT3 who owned prior model GT3's and would have preferred MT. They will give PDK a chance and some will opt out after short period of time. By next summer there will several on the market at less than MSRP because by then the wait will be six months or so for a new one.
Again, as you have stated, Porsche may have made a poor decision regarding equipping the GT3 exclusively with PDK. One views these comments as vacillation and confirmation that PDK is not that rewarding of an experience for a few.