Crown

RC:

 

Maybe you are lucky this time.

Well Porsche up sell me from the Turbo to the Spyder 

RC:

Very true, Carlos. Many people buy a GT3 but actually never attend a driving school. Even good drivers can learn a lot from that, we had an ecounter with Walter Röhrl and Adrian Sutil and while I was able to keep up pretty well, I learned some new tricks I never believed I could have missed in the past. I also realized one thing again: Training is everything. If you track race or at least do a driving ed event every week, you are going to become an excellent driver. Of course there are very talented and less talented people and not everyone can be that good but in the end, everybody can learn a lot from driving training. There are also certain specifics to a car, for example a Weissach engineer taught me how to properly use Tiptronic in auto mode to achieve the best performance. This may sound stupid but you'd be surprised how different this is from manual and/or just using auto mode and be done with it. There is a certain way you need to handle things, some sort of pre-emptive shifting, throttle pedal usage and braking, kind of a bit sciency but highly effective.

I also agree that many GT3 with PDK will make it to less track savy drivers and may even never see a track but is this really a bad thing? Also, there is kind of a natural selection here , I remember many 996 Turbo and 997 Turbo drivers getting a 996/997 GT2 because they thought the 996/997 Turbo is too lame, too tame and not raw enough for them. Now guess how many crashed their cars or switched back?

I decided against the GT3 not only because of the lack of back seats and worse straight line performance (vs. the 991 Turbo S) but also because I know me too well. I would love to get the car to the limit and since I'm not very often on the track anymore...well... This is still a 475 hp RWD car, not a toy. I can do a lot of stupid stuff in a 991 Carrera S without taking a sweat but the new GT3 is a completely new beast in my opinion. So one reason I took the 991 Turbo S is...safety (for me). If I realize after 2-3 years that the car poses no serious challenge, I can still get a 991 GT2 or GT2 RS instead.

I envy anyone who ordered a new GT3 though, this is the hell of a car and I wish I could afford to have both, the GT3 and the Turbo S. Two different beasts for every mood of the day.

That's an interesting perspective, RC.

For those that have the benefit of professional driver training, the practical reality is that driving a 911 GT3, Turbo or GT2 on the road is largely an exercise in restraint. The absolute limits of these cars (that may be enjoyed on the track) are well beyond the speeds that can be driven on most roads in the US and Europe (aside from the autobahns).

On a track you can enjoy full throttle down the straights, enjoy limit / trail braking ahead of the corner and maximise your corner and exit speed at the limit of the tyres adhesion... 

On the road, the most important aspect is that -- whatever car you are driving -- you enjoy that drive! 

Whether your prefer to drive PDK or manual on road is just a matter of personal preference... 

Carlos from Spain:

It's not do much the stick as the pay between the clutch and the throttle and break pedals, and the more challenging experience of it all and thus rewarding, 

I agree, what I miss most on my PDK car is not the stick in itself, it's the clutch .... the combination between the throttle or the brake and the clutch  + the sensation on my left foot when I can feel the bite of the clutch. So maybe we should have a PDK , with paddles, and a clutch !! 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

It's not do much the stick as the pay between the clutch and the throttle and break pedals, and the more challenging experience of it all and thus rewarding, 

I agree, what I miss most on my PDK car is not the stick in itself, it's the clutch .... the combination between the throttle or the brake and the clutch  + the sensation on my left foot when I can feel the bite of the clutch. So maybe we should have a PDK , with paddles, and a clutch !! 

now that would be amazing! 

Carlos, I actually think that the new GT3 would be just perfect for you. So choose wisely when you choose your next Porsche and if your wife doesn't care to drive with you and you don't plan on another kid, go for it. It would be perfect for you.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Carlos, I actually think that the new GT3 would be just perfect for you. So choose wisely when you choose your next Porsche and if your wife doesn't care to drive with you and you don't plan on another kid, go for it. It would be perfect for you.

I wish I could but thats the problem, I have the same problem as you, its perfect for you and I but we both need rear seats  ... I wish they would make a Carrera GTS with GT3 engine, suspensions, RWS, etc but with Carrera interior.

Some guys in the states put the rear seats back in the 997 GT3. We also have a few like this in NZ. Not too big a job I believe...probably not legal in europe...

Carlos from Spain:

RC:

Carlos, I actually think that the new GT3 would be just perfect for you. So choose wisely when you choose your next Porsche and if your wife doesn't care to drive with you and you don't plan on another kid, go for it. It would be perfect for you.

I wish I could but thats the problem, I have the same problem as you, its perfect for you and I but we both need rear seats  ... I wish they would make a Carrera GTS with GT3 engine, suspensions, RWS, etc but with Carrera interior.

I am also in the same situation with 3 kids. But, I realize also that soon the kids will not fit in the back anyway ( I suppose by the age of 14 or so )   + that there is an alternative . Have another extra car .

I will not compromise with a 991 Carrera S . I know I will end up too dissapointed and frustrated as the car is now too far from a ' sporty feel ' , considering all features like the  interior, the longer wheel base, PDK  + the more ' elegant' outside look . 

It will not be less then a GT3 for me 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Boxster Coupe GTS:

For those that have the benefit of professional driver training, the practical reality is that driving a 911 GT3, Turbo or GT2 on the road is largely an exercise in restraint. The absolute limits of these cars (that may be enjoyed on the track) are well beyond the speeds that can be driven on most roads in the US and Europe (aside from the autobahns).

Very well said. Restraint isn't easy in these cars and this is what actually adds to the challenge (and the dangers).

Autobahn? Yes, I want to be fast on the Autobahn too...too many M5, E63 AMG, etc. driving around but we all know very well that almost everybody can drive fast straight but after the first sharp curve, the seperation between a normal driver and a very skilled driver starts... I see that in my Cayenne GTS almost every day, wannabee sports car drivers in their 335i or Golf GTi R, whatever and they really give me a hard time straight line but after the first curve, they fall back a couple of car lengths. Do you think they would understand? Naah. After each sharp curve, they are back on my tail and usually pass me when it is forbidden or at a location (shortly behind a curve) where you have to be completely nuts to pass another car. Well...

So again: Driving fast on the Autobahn is not really a challenge but being fast in sharp turns and curves is. I usually accelerate before a curve (when I have a tail) because these idiots try to keep up and don't realize what awaits them short after (sharp brake, sharp turn into the curve and so on). Sometimes I see the cars behind me slip, sometimes even losing control, one hit a boardwalk once...not my problem. If they are stupid and really think they can outrun a lame Cayenne...well...this is no Touareg.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

RC:

Carlos, I actually think that the new GT3 would be just perfect for you. So choose wisely when you choose your next Porsche and if your wife doesn't care to drive with you and you don't plan on another kid, go for it. It would be perfect for you.

I wish I could but thats the problem, I have the same problem as you, its perfect for you and I but we both need rear seats  ... I wish they would make a Carrera GTS with GT3 engine, suspensions, RWS, etc but with Carrera interior.

I am also in the same situation with 3 kids. But, I realize also that soon the kids will not fit in the back anyway ( I suppose by the age of 14 or so )   + that there is an alternative . Have another extra car .

I will not compromise with a 991 Carrera S . I know I will end up too dissapointed and frustrated as the car is now too far from a ' sporty feel ' , considering all features like the  interior, the longer wheel base, PDK  + the more ' elegant' outside look . 

It will not be less then a GT3 for me 

The new Carrera generation has more sport options available than the 997 (incl. PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, PTV, louder PSE, sportier PDK, lower profile tires, etc) so in that sense a 991  CarreraS can be configured very very sportly now more so than a 997 CarreraS IMHO (not to mention the huge step in handlig of the 991S vs the 997S)... BUT there will still be three big differences with the GT3; the GT3 tunned steering (probably the most important one for me), the PDK-S and the high reving engine of the GT3 

--

The new Carrera generation has more sport options available than the 997 (incl. PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, PTV, louder PSE, sportier PDK, lower profile tires, etc) so in that sense a 991  CarreraS can be configured very very sportly now more so than a 997 CarreraS IMHO (not to mention the huge step in handlig of the 991S vs the 997S)... BUT there will still be three big differences with the GT3; the GT3 tunned steering (probably the most important one for me), the PDK-S and the high reving engine of the GT3 

And the RWS which adds 'immediacy' to the car's turn-in while also adding stability at speed.  Also, the e-diff  which is crucial to turn in at entry and grip on exit.  I think the new diff is completely underappreciated.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

I have re thought the whole GT3-PDK subject. (like you have all been waiting for this )

By all reports,  the handling is way better than the last GT3. It has more power, more traction, revs quicker and higher. So it does everything better, faster and is even more capable on complex roads in being able to cover them at higher speeds than the GT3 before it.

So maybe putting a manual gearbox into it would just be ....ridiculous.  The new GT3 might be so capable that a MT in it might shortchange a customer from getting the GT3s full bag of tricks.  The MT might be fun in a slower, less agile Porsche, but in the GT3 I think its time to really look at what PDK does for it instead of just pining for a MT because of some emotional baggage from yesteryear.

JimFlat6:

I have re thought the whole GT3-PDK subject. (like you have all been waiting for this )

By all reports,  the handling is way better than the last GT3. It has more power, more traction, revs quicker and higher. So it does everything better, faster and is even more capable on complex roads in being able to cover them at higher speeds than the GT3 before it.

So maybe putting a manual gearbox into it would just be ....ridiculous.  The new GT3 might be so capable that a MT in it might shortchange a customer from getting the GT3s full bag of tricks.  The MT might be fun in a slower, less agile Porsche, but in the GT3 I think its time to really look at what PDK does for it instead of just pining for a MT because of some emotional baggage from yesteryear.

 

 

Jim. Over five forums I read and contribute to and 1000's of posts on the 991 GT3, this is the FIRST and MOST REASONABLE reflection I have read to date on the new car (given the limited balance of useful experience we have with the product to date!). CONGRATULATIONS, You have somehow managed to succintly summarise just how I feel about the new GT3 (as a die hard air cooled MT guy of 15+ years).

For me, for this generation and iteration of Porsches estemed GT car the PDK finally makes more sense than a MT in order to really enjoy the elevated performance and speeds the 991 GT3 offers over its predecessors. Im no cafe racer, but then Im not a driving got either, but I compete in my car on road and track and I know how to heel & toe and enjoy driving my 993 to the edge of my ability. However, the 991 GT3 is capable of much more than I could ever give it (safely) and the PDK-S will allow me to explore the enormous dynamic capability of this car to a degree I could never envisage with a manual 997.2 GT3 on public roads, targa or organised track days.

Im looking forward to shutting up and driving when I get this car (pick up Europe early December and then straight down to Sicily to enjoy a week of driving and the Targa Florio roads!).

Carlos from Spain:

The new Carrera generation has more sport options available than the 997 (incl. PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, PTV, louder PSE, sportier PDK, lower profile tires, etc) so in that sense a 991  CarreraS can be configured very very sportly now more so than a 997 CarreraS IMHO (not to mention the huge step in handlig of the 991S vs the 997S)... BUT there will still be three big differences with the GT3; the GT3 tunned steering (probably the most important one for me), the PDK-S and the high reving engine of the GT3 

--

To summaries better how I feel about the 991 Carrera S, is that it got too ' refined ' . Everything is better, yes,  but it is not raw enough anymore . Like you said , I want the steering feeling of the GT3 ( which already I miss on the 997 ) and I want a bit of challenge ...... With the 991 carrera , as I said, I find everything too refined . I have not tried the car in the full sports set up options, maybe that would be different to the car I tried, but then the price gets so close to the Gt3 anyway + I have ' sacrified manual for the last 5 years by getting a PDK, now I need to come back to something closer to  what I really want .  If I have PDK, at least I want the rest to be the most sporty I can have .

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

IMO, the time to buy 991 Carrera S will be after the facelift in 2 years or so. All improvements in e-steering, PDK-S, plus the 4WS will be incorporated then.

The GT3 is a special purpose car, the way I see things, for people with a large garage. It will be good for the track day and the weekend drive to the mountain (dry) route. If only for that extrovert body kit, it is not usable daily in many places.

"Form follows function"

I am one of those in favor of MT and even more than that in favor of coice of gearbox,but hat off to AP for actually trying to fiddle with PDK to make it different and acceptable to MT fans(possibillity to stall it and roll back as seen in video)...anyway still think he will be remembered as a man who killed manual gearbox

Gnil:

I also find that this bashing the lack of manual  on the GT3 goes too far at the moment.

No one , except 3 journalists, have tried the car yet . 

People need to try it by themselves and only after can they make a proper judgment  . I am also sure many of the people who critisize the GT3 will never buy one anyway .

Porsche does have a problem with the GT3 .  A it is a sports car,  and so supposed to be the fastest it can be, they have to go with new technology to be able to better then the competition .

On the other side , in theory , a car with no MT is ' less involving ' , then again, I would like to hear that from someone who is behind the wheels of a PDK car on a challenging track and see if they still say PDK is less involving or challenging ( as for me, I still get a sweat with PDK when I drive at my most and do not find any lack of challenge , the challenge is just pushed to other parts ) , and Porsche needs to prove to  the die hards who are not willing to give it a try, that it can be fun also.  And this comes from someone who  still misses manual regularly .

When  Ferrari offered both manual and F1 gearboxes, the clients went at  over 90 % for the F1 and the manual got quickly dropped.

Is is hard to offer a car that is slower in the sports car segment, jsut because it wants to keep manual...

Do most of the manual haters drive like this ?

Manual with a pro behind the wheels

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

The new Carrera generation has more sport options available than the 997 (incl. PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, PTV, louder PSE, sportier PDK, lower profile tires, etc) so in that sense a 991  CarreraS can be configured very very sportly now more so than a 997 CarreraS IMHO (not to mention the huge step in handlig of the 991S vs the 997S)... BUT there will still be three big differences with the GT3; the GT3 tunned steering (probably the most important one for me), the PDK-S and the high reving engine of the GT3 

--

To summaries better how I feel about the 991 Carrera S, is that it got too ' refined ' . Everything is better, yes,  but it is not raw enough anymore . Like you said , I want the steering feeling of the GT3 ( which already I miss on the 997 ) and I want a bit of challenge ...... With the 991 carrera , as I said, I find everything too refined . I have not tried the car in the full sports set up options, maybe that would be different to the car I tried, but then the price gets so close to the Gt3 anyway + I have ' sacrified manual for the last 5 years by getting a PDK, now I need to come back to something closer to  what I really want .  If I have PDK, at least I want the rest to be the most sporty I can have .

I understand what you mean and it makes sense too.

BiTurbo:

 

Do most of the manual haters drive like this ?

 

 

Manual with a pro behind the wheels

 

Kurosawa's magical left foot! A pleasure sight to observe every time!!!

I believe some of us are dying breeds.  Current generation lacks certain skills such as making a perfect manual shift, while they gain better google searching skills.

BiTurbo:

Do most of the manual haters drive like this ?

 

Manual with a pro behind the wheels

Personally I have driven manuals since the age of 14  and done many laps around the N'Ring with a manual  

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

reginos:

IMO, the time to buy 991 Carrera S will be after the facelift in 2 years or so. All improvements in e-steering, PDK-S, plus the 4WS will be incorporated then.

The GT3 is a special purpose car, the way I see things, for people with a large garage. It will be good for the track day and the weekend drive to the mountain (dry) route. If only for that extrovert body kit, it is not usable daily in many places.

Not sure AWS will make it to the regular Carrera models but who knows...

I would take the GT3 anytime over the Carrera S if I wouldn't need the backseats.

A well optioned Carrera S with powerkit engine is around 140-150k EUR, a GT3 not much more. I would surely prefer the GT3. If Porsche would offer the GT3 with optional back seats, the choice would be even easier.

If Porsche would offer the GT3 without the rear wing (option), they would probably have difficulties to sell the Carrera S.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I would say that is a fair comparison. A rank amateur against one of the best professional drivers. Now ask yourself one question. What was the professional trying to do when driving the Ring? Play with heel and toe or accomplish the fastest time? Now follow your answer with which would be faster by the same driver, manual or PDK. Case closed.

BiTurbo:

 

Do most of the manual haters drive like this ?

It is unbelievable how bad the F430 driver shifted. Unbelievable. I mean c'mon...really???

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

  Fast lap back in the day in that Nsx. Amazing how much faster cars have become. 

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

Kind of the manual box..... You all know him The footwork is really awesome...

Back in the days...when specators where so close to the street that I actually had to think of them as part of the nature, not to be afraid of hitting them. So dangerous...

Yes, Walter Röhrl was and still is a master and he seems to get better with aging. Unbelievable.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

BiTurbo:

Do most of the manual haters drive like this ?

It is unbelievable how bad the F430 driver shifted. Unbelievable. I mean c'mon...really???

Yes RC, now you know the truth - this is the exact video that convinced Ferrari to stop offering manual transmission on any of their cars.  The embarassment at Maranello was just too much to live with. 

Seriously, there are many, many manual drivers who are deathly afraid of screwing up on say, a downshift (so they stop practicing downshifting into a corner), and gradually become just sub-par manual drivers.  Some of these drivers may still claim to enjoy the connection with the car etc. that a manual gives.... but IMO many more are quietly happy to accept PDK and similar options, which at least will never leave you embarrassed.  

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

FWIW, allocations for the US market are suppose to be out this week. We shall see.

4trac:

Seriously, there are many, many manual drivers who are deathly afraid of screwing up on say, a downshift (so they stop practicing downshifting into a corner), and gradually become just sub-par manual drivers.  Some of these drivers may still claim to enjoy the connection with the car etc. that a manual gives.... but IMO many more are quietly happy to accept PDK and similar options, which at least will never leave you embarrassed.  

I have no issues with manual...or better said...I had no issues with manual until I realized that I would be slower with it (vs. 997 Turbo Tiptronic). The 997 Turbo was my first sports car with automatic transmission and it felt pretty strange. Tiptronic isn't exactly PDK, if you get my point and shifting an automatic tranny using buttons was no fun either. So at some point, I stopped using the buttons and started to learn...how to properly use the Tiptronic in auto mode in the 997 Turbo. If you think this was an easy task, you are wrong. Flooring the throttle pedal just left you with a second or two of...nothing. Just an example. It was horrible. From standstill, things were going better but I really had to learn how to cope with Tiptronic in such a car, with turbo lag, with kickdown reaction and turbo lag and automatic shifting of course, the downshifts I needed at a percise time and so on. It was quite a steep learning curve. I know this is hard to believe but those who had or still have Tiptronic in their 997 Turbo, may actually understand what I am talking about if they had some track time with a capable instructor who knew Tiptronic well.

Then, Porsche put PDK on the market. I cannot say I was impressed with PDK at first but it was much better than Tiptronic, especially faster. With the introduction of the next gen PDK in the 991, things got much better. In the 997, PDK still felt like a slight compromise, this may also be the reason why Porsche never introduced it for the 997 GT3 or GT3 RS.

I never cared about manual, automatic or whatever. I wanted to be fast and being fast or the fastest was the fun for me. I didn't care how I achieved it, I wasn't that clever in my early days, I just was happy to be able to drive a powerful car as fast as possible. Never cared too much about the means but the results.

So no, I don't miss manual at all. Sometimes, when I get to drive a loaner or a testcar with manual, I actually don't care. I really do not think about it. It is just a car, I usually care more about the drive feel, handling, sound, steering and this sorts of stuff but I couldn't care less how I shift or if I have to shift. I care about shifting response time though, this I do.

I really think that this whole manual vs. PDK thing has something to do with some sort of false perception of loosing some sort of identity, something like manhood or whatever. For me, using manual is nothing special (hey, I am 48 years old and many cars with manual have come and gone) but I can see why some younger people or people from countries with a very high auto tranny usage percentage think different. Honestly, I never put much thought into that because simply put, I always went for the fastest setup out there and this kind of excludes manual.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Just for perspective, here is a "benchmark" lap in a manual GT3 RS at the Nurburgring...

Porsche 911 GT3 RS (manual gearbox) at Nurburgring -- Video Link

...if you can drive a lap 100% flat out around the Nurburgring, the new 991 GT3 PDK may be just as fast!