Crown

Thank you Nick

Leave it to you to find out that even the Germans want a MT gearbox in a GT3.

RC:

Confirmed: In 2014, the new GT3 engine will be very likely used as a base for the next 911 RSR engine.

Why not this year (2013)? Because it isn't quite clear where the GTE class is heading to...so Porsche slowed down development for the new direct injection engine.

There you go....racing. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Confirmed also, in 2014, the Cup cars will use the old Mezger engine.

Any ideas why?

Best, w

nberry:

This is from Rennlist a brief summary.

 

frayed: if you need any other translation of some sentences here I can help here quickly too...but otherwise the article doesnt give much more info. They drove the car only shortly before being stopped by the police. The engine revs quicker than the old one (listen to this, Im a big fan of the old one..but it really only started to pull above 5000, the new one seems more linear; this would have been also on my list) + the car - despite being longer, feels more agile compared to the old one, but in an "honest way"..this is how they describe it. Steering feel is "equal" to 997 GT3 but certainly better then 991S. Not so much (new) about PdK itself.... all the best,

Also, SportAuto believes a MT is a must option.

MT a must option??!! Didi we read the same article?? Where is it mentioned in the article?

In end summery there is a "prediction" that from next MY Porsche needs ot offer MT for purists since they are most devoted GT3 fans. Or at least to offer MT in new GT3 RS.

Do you know what is such a dissapointment for me? Fact that most important item on GT3 experience for purist GT3 fan is MT! Not a chassis, or precise steering, nothing but MT...

wurlie:

RC:

Confirmed: In 2014, the new GT3 engine will be very likely used as a base for the next 911 RSR engine.

Why not this year (2013)? Because it isn't quite clear where the GTE class is heading to...so Porsche slowed down development for the new direct injection engine.

There you go....racing. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Confirmed also, in 2014, the Cup cars will use the old Mezger engine.

Any ideas why?

Best, w

Smooth transition from old Mezger engine to new one? I guess it is impossible to switch instantly.

Look at the RSR...is isn't officially based on the GT3 but on the Carrera 4 (homologation reasons as far as I heard). So what now? Bad car?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

KresoF1:

Do you know what is such a dissapointment for me? Fact that most important item on GT3 experience for purist GT3 fan is MT! Not a chassis, or precise steering, nothing but MT...

Maybe because they

1. Haven't driven it yet (or never will)

2. Aren't actually intererested (too expensive, too whatever, etc.)

3. Want to keep their "old" GT3, so they tell to themselves..."hey, the new one is crap because it doesn't have manual", just to justify not getting it...

4. All above three and a thousand reasons more?

Seriously, I don't get it either. Maybe we have too many pro drivers here and we don't have a clue about driving a sports car.

Yes, I am a little bit pissed, similar to Andreas Preuninger because the new GT3 is a fantastic car but everybody seems to bash it for one thing only. What disappoints me even more is that Sport Auto made a similar comment and even Chris Harris, who, try to understand him or not, actually bought himself a 599 GTB without manual and sold his manual GT3 4.0 RS for it. Sorry guys but this is getting ridiculous. Seriously.

If people don't want to get a GT3 with PDK, don't get it. There are enough other sports cars with manual...and all of them in the same price range are way slower than the new GT3.

Seriously: How can you ask Porsche to build a slower, less capable car, just to have a manual transmission? Get over it, buy yourself a Caterham or whatever and try to enjoy the rear of every new GT3 leaving you  behind. Yeah...it is fun to drive manual...and be slow. Got it.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

JimFlat6:

Thank you Nick

Leave it to you to find out that even the Germans want a MT gearbox in a GT3.

Depends on what Germans. I do not want manual on any Porsche because PDK offers both worlds. I just want Porsche to make PDK faster and sportier and this is what they did with the GT3 version (and hopefully with the new Turbo PDK too, even if it shifts slightly less fast for comfort reasons).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I also find that this bashing the lack of manual  on the GT3 goes too far at the moment.

No one , except 3 journalists, have tried the car yet . 

People need to try it by themselves and only after can they make a proper judgment  . I am also sure many of the people who critisize the GT3 will never buy one anyway .

Porsche does have a problem with the GT3 .  A it is a sports car,  and so supposed to be the fastest it can be, they have to go with new technology to be able to better then the competition .

On the other side , in theory , a car with no MT is ' less involving ' , then again, I would like to hear that from someone who is behind the wheels of a PDK car on a challenging track and see if they still say PDK is less involving or challenging ( as for me, I still get a sweat with PDK when I drive at my most and do not find any lack of challenge , the challenge is just pushed to other parts ) , and Porsche needs to prove to  the die hards who are not willing to give it a try, that it can be fun also.  And this comes from someone who  still misses manual regularly .

When  Ferrari offered both manual and F1 gearboxes, the clients went at  over 90 % for the F1 and the manual got quickly dropped.

Is is hard to offer a car that is slower in the sports car segment, jsut because it wants to keep manual...

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:
When  Ferrari offered both manual and F1 gearboxes, the clients went at  over 90 % for the F1 and the manual got quickly dropped.

Is is hard to offer a car that is slower in the sports car segment, jsut because it wants to keep manual...

But that's the whole point! They gave their customers the option, their customers decided the direction of their cars and they ceased manual... Porsche have had AP telling us for the past 13 years that grannies and pussies drive flappy paddle gearboxes, now its dinosaurs drive manual... They're dictating to us what's right like we're muppets!

They forgot the step of offering an option like Ferrari and others, letting customers choose their preferred transmission and in 2-3 years if the manual uptake dropped dramatically (ie like Ferrari), they could cease the manual without a complaint from the greater enthusiast market as the market will have spoken

Gnil:

Is is hard to offer a car that is slower in the sports car segment, jsut because it wants to keep manual...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

911rox:

They forgot the step of offering an option like Ferrari and others, letting customers choose their preferred transmission and in 2-3 years if the manual uptake dropped dramatically (ie like Ferrari), they could cease the manual without a complaint from the greater enthusiast market as the market will have spoken

The thing is: If manual and PDK equipped cars would offer a similar performance, I don't think Porsche would really mind offering manual too. However, with the new AWS system, PDK is practically mandatory (as far as I understood), not talking about the other advantages PDK offers.

I think I mentioned it before: If Porsche claims that a manual 991 GT3 looses one car length per single shift vs. a PDK equipped car, who is that nuts to go for the manual car? Seriously, buyers would actually start bashing Porsche for delivering a car with bad performance. I mean one car length per single shift, this is insane...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

In this Sport Auto video, you can actually hear how well PDK works (you need to watch and listen to the whole thing...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6GhpKiLJHo

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

In this Sport Auto video, you can actually hear how well PDK works (you need to watch and listen to the whole thing...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6GhpKiLJHo

Not many are saying that PDK doesn't work or is not faster on the track. Instead, some are saying we would rather sacrifice a millisecond or two of shift time, and a car length or two, for a more pleasurable driving experience.

Porsche itself opened this Pandora's box by offering a manual box as standard and a PDK optional on the new 991.  If the PDK is so superior why didn't Porsche skip development of the manual box? Or are you finally admitting that the Americans had it basically correct over the past fifty years with its heavy concentration of automatics?

RC:

911rox:

They forgot the step of offering an option like Ferrari and others, letting customers choose their preferred transmission and in 2-3 years if the manual uptake dropped dramatically (ie like Ferrari), they could cease the manual without a complaint from the greater enthusiast market as the market will have spoken

The thing is: If manual and PDK equipped cars would offer a similar performance, I don't think Porsche would really mind offering manual too. However, with the new AWS system, PDK is practically mandatory (as far as I understood), not talking about the other advantages PDK offers.

I think I mentioned it before: If Porsche claims that a manual 991 GT3 looses one car length per single shift vs. a PDK equipped car, who is that nuts to go for the manual car? Seriously, buyers would actually start bashing Porsche for delivering a car with bad performance. I mean one car length per single shift, this is insane...

RC, the car length claim was marketing hype... In actual fact it was claimed to be half a car length per shift but this would only be apparent from 1-2 and maybe 2-3... Around a track like the NBR, benefits would be minimised and the 4.0 RS is proof of this... Its just exaggerations and fluff from AP and his team to justify their direction with PDK...

CGX car nut:

RC:

In this Sport Auto video, you can actually hear how well PDK works (you need to watch and listen to the whole thing...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6GhpKiLJHo

Not many are saying that PDK doesn't work or is not faster on the track. Instead, some are saying we would rather sacrifice a millisecond or two of shift time, and a car length or two, for a more pleasurable driving experience.

Porsche itself opened this Pandora's box by offering a manual box as standard and a PDK optional on the new 991.  If the PDK is so superior why didn't Porsche skip development of the manual box? Or are you finally admitting that the Americans had it basically correct over the past fifty years with its heavy concentration of automatics?

Just wait another year or two...

Also...PDK is not an automatic, it just has an auto function. Or do you seriously compare a 3-speed US auto tranny from some classic US cars with a modern 7-speed PDK?

Maybe Porsche should really offer a manual shift lever for those who want to shift PDK the old ways, without paddles and with a certain shifting pattern (up, down, up middle, down middle, up right, down right and so on). Basically a manual without clutch...which would actually be PDK but without paddles.

Should I patent this? Maybe.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

CGX car nut:

RC:

In this Sport Auto video, you can actually hear how well PDK works (you need to watch and listen to the whole thing...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6GhpKiLJHo

Not many are saying that PDK doesn't work or is not faster on the track. Instead, some are saying we would rather sacrifice a millisecond or two of shift time, and a car length or two, for a more pleasurable driving experience.

Porsche itself opened this Pandora's box by offering a manual box as standard and a PDK optional on the new 991.  If the PDK is so superior why didn't Porsche skip development of the manual box? Or are you finally admitting that the Americans had it basically correct over the past fifty years with its heavy concentration of automatics?

Just wait another year or two...

Also...PDK is not an automatic, it just has an auto function. Or do you seriously compare a 3-speed US auto tranny from some classic US cars with a modern 7-speed PDK?

Maybe Porsche should really offer a manual shift lever for those who want to shift PDK the old ways, without paddles and with a certain shifting pattern (up, down, up middle, down middle, up right, down right and so on). Basically a manual without clutch...which would actually be PDK but without paddles.

Should I patent this? Maybe.

Ah!  The typical blather about "inferior" American technology over the decades.

While the average American automotive consumer put style over substance, BMW, among other European brands, did employ GM and Chrysler transmissions.  Even the "superior" PDK box uses technologies, under license, from U.S. domiciled companies. 

It's not do much the stick as the pay between the clutch and the throttle and break pedals, and the more challenging experience of it all and thus rewarding, compared to flipping a paddle and getting a perfect shift done for you every time. So just adding a stick would not do as its just a different type of "switch" as the paddle.

Not so sure one would only lose a few meters from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3. Let's ad a long sweeping curve in the mix.

Something like Kesselchen... You even get added stability as a bonus!

(coming from someone who will not be ordering the first generation 991 GT3 and who has experience with multiple dual-clutch gearboxes)

DuckieRS:

Not so sure one would only lose a few meters from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3. Let's ad a long sweeping curve in the mix.

Something like Kesselchen... You even get added stability as a bonus!

Just pull both paddles and...voila...

(coming from someone who will not be ordering the first generation 991 GT3 and who has experience with multiple dual-clutch gearboxes)

Why not? If you are hoping for manual...I doubt it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

CGX car nut:

 

Ah!  The typical blather about "inferior" American technology over the decades.

While the average American automotive consumer put style over substance, BMW, among other European brands, did employ GM and Chrysler transmissions.  Even the "superior" PDK box uses technologies, under license, from U.S. domiciled companies. 

 

Oh boy...

So how much German parts (Bosch, Siemens, Getrag, ZF, etc.) are in US cars?

You misunderstood my post completely...it was about comparing a primitive automatic transmission (50 years US auto tranny...) to a modern PDK system. In this case, I don't think my English is(or was) that bad.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Carlos from Spain:

It's not do much the stick as the pay between the clutch and the throttle and break pedals, and the more challenging experience of it all and thus rewarding, compared to flipping a paddle and getting a perfect shift done for you every time. So just adding a stick would not do as its just a different type of "switch" as the paddle.

Well, I am pretty sure Porsche could add a clutch dummy too...

I get your point, Carlos but I bet that if you would try the new GT3, you'd be amazed by it. Also, there is that thing with pulling both paddles...not the same as engaging the clutch with each shift but it is close.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

CGX car nut:

 

Ah!  The typical blather about "inferior" American technology over the decades.

While the average American automotive consumer put style over substance, BMW, among other European brands, did employ GM and Chrysler transmissions.  Even the "superior" PDK box uses technologies, under license, from U.S. domiciled companies. 

 

Oh boy...

So how much German parts (Bosch, Siemens, Getrag, ZF, etc.) are in US cars?

You misunderstood my post completely...it was about comparing a primitive automatic transmission (50 years US auto tranny...) to a modern PDK system. In this case, I don't think my English is(or was) that bad.

I understood your post.  Automatic transmissions are engage and forget devices and the paddles of a PDK are really superfluous too.  Let the embedded logic determine the optimal shift pattern to optimize performance both on the street and on the track. 

Maybe Porsche should really offer a manual shift lever for those who want to shift PDK the old ways, without paddles and with a certain shifting pattern (up, down, up middle, down middle, up right, down right and so on). Basically a manual without clutch...which would actually be PDK but without paddles.

Should I patent this? Maybe.

I had a better idea-connect paddles to the clutch so by choosing how to operate them(slow or fast) driver chooses how to engage the clutch...when i started to think how to incorporate shifting to neutral and blipping the gas things got complicated

Hmm, didn't Porsche always offers manuals in the 911, in addition to the old Tiptronic and the PDK? So Porsche had decades of data on customer preferences, and we the customers has already voted our preference for PDK with our pocket?

Since we voted for the PDK, why is it a surprise it will be the default transmission of choice from now one?

Same deal with the glass top Targa, I keep hoping Porsche would do a 997 Turbo S with a glass Targa roof, like someone prefer MT, I prefer Targa. Too bad I am in the minority and Porsche didn't deem the market was big enough to warrant a 997 Turbo S Targa. 

Whoopsy:

Hmm, didn't Porsche always offers manuals in the 911, in addition to the old Tiptronic and the PDK? So Porsche had decades of data on customer preferences, and we the customers has already voted our preference for PDK with our pocket?

Since we voted for the PDK, why is it a surprise it will be the default transmission of choice from now one?

Same deal with the glass top Targa, I keep hoping Porsche would do a 997 Turbo S with a glass Targa roof, like someone prefer MT, I prefer Targa. Too bad I am in the minority and Porsche didn't deem the market was big enough to warrant a 997 Turbo S Targa. 

Maybe you are lucky this time.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

DuckieRS:

(coming from someone who will not be ordering the first generation 991 GT3...)

Why not? If you are hoping for manual...I doubt it.

Not hoping for manual (anymore). Unlike you, I (generally) prefer to buy the second generation in cars.

The upcoming RS might make me change my mind though. Hope it will have the same effect on me as the 996.1 GT3 had back in 1999...

RC:

I get your point, Carlos but I bet that if you would try the new GT3, you'd be amazed by it. Also, there is that thing with pulling both paddles...not the same as engaging the clutch with each shift but it is close.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I'm sure I would, I already like the PDK on the 991 Carrera and that won't likely be as good as the one in the GT3. But the point of the matter is that no matter how good it is, it could be absolutely blow you away fantastic DC secuential gearbox, BUT still won't give the experience of a manual gearbox, no matter how good it is, it will give other things (speed, confort, efficiency, etc) but not the experience of operating the clutch and stick yourself that keeps you directly involved in the dance that is coordinating the clucth, throttle, brake, and stick, giving you a greater challenge to get it right on each curve entry and exit and being more rewarding when you do. 

I understand that for others what I just described they would call a pain in the neck and do not enjoy it at all, and that is fine and equally respectable, but for those that look foward to that when driving the car, no automated gearbox can subtitute that no matter how good it is, just like no sportcar can e a subtutute for the experience of riding a sportbike no matter how good the sportcar is, and viceversa. 

Some are willing to trade in some marginal speed  for the fun that the manual gives that PDK cannot because of the "fun" being automated (thats not to say that for others the PDK is more fun than them manual), just like some GT3 owners will preffer to have slower regular tires instead of cups for better grip/safety on wet days, or ticking all the creature conforts of the options list that add weight to the car instead of getting a bare to the bone GT3 that would be faster. This is not different. If Porsche should not offer a manual option because its a tad slower than the PDK even if the clinets want that, they why should they offer NAV, electric seats, A/C, etc as well if it also slows the car? and they should only allow R-rated compund tires on the GT3 as well with no other options?... or why build a GT3 altogether and not only build the RS version?

Also funny how many GT3 to be owners would get the PDK over the manual simply because its faster yet have not attended or intend to attend any driving courses that would make them much more faster than what the PDK adds (not to mention safer), makes no sense to me.

--

Carlos from Spain:

... just like no sportcar can e a subtutute for the experience of riding a sportbike no matter how good the sportcar is, and viceversa. 

True.

Makes me think of how easily quickshifters got accepted by bikers. Less opposition because the action stays the same? (comparison doesn't hold up, I know. Different system, but still, somehow...)

Subject might have been tackled before. Leawood mentioned the sequential (cup) gearbox, but I don't think those can be adapted to street use (due to maintenance / cost)...

I believe the new GT3 was designed to be more compatible for DD while maintaining its competitive performance in track events. 

Despite what many MT enthusiast claim, sitting in traffic with a clutch that requires the power of a well built thigh is not something anyone wants to look forward to.

RC:

Maybe Porsche should really offer a manual shift lever for those who want to shift PDK the old ways, without paddles and with a certain shifting pattern (up, down, up middle, down middle, up right, down right and so on). Basically a manual without clutch...which would actually be PDK but without paddles.

Should I patent this? Maybe.

  Porsche already has the patents on that, it was /is called "Sportomatic"

 PDK will be ok for sure, but even better when Google and Porsche synch up. Imagine how faster per lap that autonomous car would be! No driver error from late or awkward inputs. GPS speed, braking, steering wheel inputs all tailored in real time for maximum efficiency.

Why even bother with man machine interface if the machine is always faster? Just eliminate all human error and chance! lol

Very true, Carlos. Many people buy a GT3 but actually never attend a driving school. Even good drivers can learn a lot from that, we had an ecounter with Walter Röhrl and Adrian Sutil and while I was able to keep up pretty well, I learned some new tricks I never believed I could have missed in the past. I also realized one thing again: Training is everything. If you track race or at least do a driving ed event every week, you are going to become an excellent driver. Of course there are very talented and less talented people and not everyone can be that good but in the end, everybody can learn a lot from driving training. There are also certain specifics to a car, for example a Weissach engineer taught me how to properly use Tiptronic in auto mode to achieve the best performance. This may sound stupid but you'd be surprised how different this is from manual and/or just using auto mode and be done with it. There is a certain way you need to handle things, some sort of pre-emptive shifting, throttle pedal usage and braking, kind of a bit sciency but highly effective.

I also agree that many GT3 with PDK will make it to less track savy drivers and may even never see a track but is this really a bad thing? Also, there is kind of a natural selection here , I remember many 996 Turbo and 997 Turbo drivers getting a 996/997 GT2 because they thought the 996/997 Turbo is too lame, too tame and not raw enough for them. Now guess how many crashed their cars or switched back?

I decided against the GT3 not only because of the lack of back seats and worse straight line performance (vs. the 991 Turbo S) but also because I know me too well. I would love to get the car to the limit and since I'm not very often on the track anymore...well... This is still a 475 hp RWD car, not a toy. I can do a lot of stupid stuff in a 991 Carrera S without taking a sweat but the new GT3 is a completely new beast in my opinion. So one reason I took the 991 Turbo S is...safety (for me). If I realize after 2-3 years that the car poses no serious challenge, I can still get a 991 GT2 or GT2 RS instead.

I envy anyone who ordered a new GT3 though, this is the hell of a car and I wish I could afford to have both, the GT3 and the Turbo S. Two different beasts for every mood of the day.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)