Crown

MKSGR:

RC:

 

Maybe we should put this in a different perspective: Imagine you are at a driving event and at some point, even if it is a driver ed event, there is some sort of competition with time taking.  So here's my point: Do you want to be the fastest or one of the fastest or do you want to enjoy yourself? You can't have both as an amateur driver because achieving the best or the second best time requires very good driving skills AND a perfect technical setup, there is also always somebody in the group who is a semi-pro or a former pro. So from a group of 10 cars, you would be the 5th or 6th or maybe the 9th because all these cars had PDK and you had manual (same car and power). Would you care? I bet you would. Just an example.

 

Christian, I think his point is the following: while you could argue that you would get a better result in this driving contest in your example with a PDK GT3 car than with a manual GT3 you could still argue that your result would be even better with a GT2RS. Thus, everything is relative. A GT3 is never the fastest car (although one of the best "compromises"). I.e. if you are at approx. 80% of the possibilities with a GT3 - why bother if you are at 78% or 83% (GT3 manual or GT3 PDK) - if the driving pleasure makes a difference for you...

We compared the same cars with manual and PDK, it doesn't make sense to compare a 991 GT3 to a 997 GT2 RS but you'd be surprised how fast the 991 GT3 will be on the track.

So what if Porsche puts the next gen GT2 RS on the market...with PDK?
Gotcha...you will get this car, I bet my underpants on it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

JimFlat6:

Corvettes aren't my first choice for much either...but if the GT3 PDK is only good because it is faster than a GT3 with a manual, but is still slower than other track oriented production cars, than what the hell is the point  of the GT3 really ????????  Since it will only "rule the road" so to speak, the advantages of the PDK arent really all that needed.

 

*slaps forehead* Maybe you should wait till you drive the car? The GT3 was never the fastest car on track and still isn't.  It's about the drive.   Having owned both past versions, the gearbox was only part of the puzzle.  Steering precision, feedback, sound, dynamics, build quality, etc etc.  But if you cannot detect these difference from the vette, then save your duckets and buy the vette.

I have faith that PAG hasn't lost the plot.

But I understand the violent response to the loss of the manual.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

You skipped a page... Its Porsche telling us we need PDK only GT3's because they are better than a manual GT3 for track days etc.. When in reality the only track days it will prove the PDK is best is  at Porsche Club events and not mixed marque events..so the entire claimed advantage for PDK is limited to inbred Porsche events so to speak.

RC:

MKSGR:

RC:

 

Maybe we should put this in a different perspective: Imagine you are at a driving event and at some point, even if it is a driver ed event, there is some sort of competition with time taking.  So here's my point: Do you want to be the fastest or one of the fastest or do you want to enjoy yourself? You can't have both as an amateur driver because achieving the best or the second best time requires very good driving skills AND a perfect technical setup, there is also always somebody in the group who is a semi-pro or a former pro. So from a group of 10 cars, you would be the 5th or 6th or maybe the 9th because all these cars had PDK and you had manual (same car and power). Would you care? I bet you would. Just an example.

 

Christian, I think his point is the following: while you could argue that you would get a better result in this driving contest in your example with a PDK GT3 car than with a manual GT3 you could still argue that your result would be even better with a GT2RS. Thus, everything is relative. A GT3 is never the fastest car (although one of the best "compromises"). I.e. if you are at approx. 80% of the possibilities with a GT3 - why bother if you are at 78% or 83% (GT3 manual or GT3 PDK) - if the driving pleasure makes a difference for you...

We compared the same cars with manual and PDK, it doesn't make sense to compare a 991 GT3 to a 997 GT2 RS but you'd be surprised how fast the 991 GT3 will be on the track.

So what if Porsche puts the next gen GT2 RS on the market...with PDK?
Gotcha...you will get this car, I bet my underpants on it.

You know me well 

JimFlat6:

You skipped a page... Its Porsche telling us we need PDK only GT3's because they are better than a manual GT3 for track days etc.. When in reality the only track days it will prove the PDK is best is  at Porsche Club events and not mixed marque events..so the entire claimed advantage for PDK is limited to inbred Porsche events so to speak.

Not sure what you are trying to say, faster is faster.  In my experience a typical track day laptime is far more dependent on driver than machine.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

Guys. This thread is decending into the BS rants as found on Rennlist 991 GT3 board.

The 991 GT3 is PDK only. Lets live with it. If you are a diehard MT guy try one and if you dont like it go out and buy a 997 GT3.

A few things over the last few pages that warrant comment. The tuning of the engine and the electronic differential have both been designed in the 991 GT3 SPECIFICALLY for the PDK-S gearbox. The peak power RPM and shift points with 7th gear (no overdrive) all work with the electronic diff (run by hydrallics from the PDK box - the manual box cant run the diff) to form a "network". Added to this network are the electric steering and PTV as well as the active engine mount dampers and new RWS system.

As previously stated by AP, the manual gearbox form the 997 will not fit the 991. Its also a two shaft unit (991 requires 3 due to new engine). So only the 7 speed manual box is suitable as it was designed off the casing and three shaft design of the PDK housing. Unfortunately it cannot yet run the e-diff which is a big disadvantage in handling. At this time many feel the 7 speed gearbox is not a worthy replacement for the old 6 speed unit so an entirely new gearbox needs to be put into production which is stronger, has better shift feel, different gearing and can run an aux hydrallic oil pump for the e-diff.

Just offering a "MT and PDK" option for the GT3 when there will be only 1500-2000 units approximately produced makes no economic sense at all. Porsche went with the decision that would be most viable and tie in their new technologies together to produce a state of the are GT3 for the new generation.

The 991 GT3RS is all but signed off. It will have PDK-S. Perhaps by the face lift versions of these two cars in 2017/18 Porsche will have a MT option/solution - but by then the game will have moved on and none of their serious competitors will anymore use MT.

These are facts not my opinion. Until each of us have driven the new GT3 its a bit difficult to tell if we like it more or less than the old MT whatever the preconceptions we individually hold. One thing is true however, its the future so we stay on teh train or get off a few stops back. 

macca,

From what I read (i) the main issue with a move to the MT is that  the pump running the ediff is in the PDK box, and (ii) AP has CLEARLY left the MT on the table for a future GT car.  As for (i), it would add weight but they can do what Ferrari does: have the pump external the transmission.

Sure the electronics integration will have to be reworked but it's certainly feasible.  In other models, PAG offers both solutions so they know how to skin this cat.  AP did not mention the network as a hindrance to the MT.

Since the new car was designed around the pdk box, I believe there could be some 'holes' in a MT car derivative in the .2 production run.  If the market response is strong, it seems it would be hard to convince management to spring for the development costs of the MT car if all units are sold out anyway.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

Hi Frayed. All you say above is correct. The networking of the systems isnt an issue just additional development time and cost.

AP's team left the MT development on the table quite some time ago from what I have learned. Around August/September 2013. It wasnt a completed solution, more a proto.

The 991 GT3 will not see a MT box. Nor will the 991 GT3RS. If version two deritives are to see an option Porsche will need to start working on this solution in the next 12-18 months.

Personally I believe a MT box development at this juncture would probably be a bit of a dissapointment to those who are MT die hards. My observation of MT transmissions developed for the NA market specifically due to demand, but based on an "automatic" platform form design up is that they are not a cohesive solution and leave something wanting most often. I use the BMW M5 and Merc C63 as examples of this. Of the sports cars currently on the market (Gallardo, R8 etc) you will fid most of these were designed when MT was the focus platform with e clutch boxes etc considered in development at the same time. Many of thos ecars are coming to teh end of the design/development lifespans I I suspect competition will ensure in the next generation or two they will no longer sport MT systems. North Amercia is the only market that has historically been able to sway the manufacturers to stay with MT and now that China and other tiger nations are increasing in size, whilst NA is relatively decreasing in size I dont think the business plan to make a handful of MTs for NA market will hold water for much longer.

The 6 speed MT in the Cayman/Boxster is the  reminants of the older sized gearbox. These may be the only Porsche models offering  MT option over the next 5 years....

Macca, I tend to agree with your post.  Given development cycles, you are right.  APs team would have to get busy in the short term to launch a manual option by the time the .2 variants get finalized for production.  So, it would be only the initial allocation of cars and customer response to gauge interest based on your 12-18 month timeline.

It seems there are plenty of euro buyers who would prefer a manual, but based on what I can glean from the magazines, forums and history with the BMW M5, the most vocal and fervent are the NA folks.  As a percentage the NA market is smaller due to demands worldwide. . . it doesn't bode well for the manual fans.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

Frayed. Opps. Meant Aug/Sept  2012. Yes agree with your other points. 

Its possible MT in generation 2 991 GT3/RS. There is enough time. I dont believe APs team ever completed a MT gearbox to their absolute satisfaction so there is still work to be done there but its achievable if Porsche take head of these boards (Rennlist etc) and the requests of the MT die hard fans.

The thing is these boards are heavily skewed to enthusiasts and if I look over the 4-5 boards Im a member (Pistonheads, Teamspeed etc) I can only identify around 30 of us around the globe that bought a new 997.1 or 997.2 GT3 which means most of us buy these cars second hand and therefore are not the target market. Essentially I guess what Im saying is that most new Porsche GT3 buyers traditionally havent spent alot of time on such boards and this probably wont express their dislike of a lack of manual option in the same was as they do here. Furthermore there will be a new audience due to the PDK and quite frankly I suspect the 991 GT3/RS will porve to be such a run away success on road and track that Porsche accountants will not notice at all the MT fraternity has abandoned the product. Infact the 991 GT3 biggest surprises will be on the track where many of the current used GT3 owners take there ca and once they see first hand the success this gearbox affords a good driver on the track the cars short comings due to MT box will rapidly demise.

Its no doubt an interesting world we live in right now. Like you I have the luxury of a wonderful analogue "hairy chested" air cooled ca in my stable so I feel very privaledged to be able ti enjoy the future today with the 991 Gt3 whilst still having the benefit of the old skool car should I wish to excercise my left foot. I somehow suspect however thee 993 will see much less use one I get my ass in that GT3 and find out how easy it is to live with and addictive that engine and paddle shift is in real life...

As I see it, the GT cars have always been manual only... Should a PDK never have been considered for the GT cars? Most certainly not! I'm a manual fan but I applaude that a PDK has been made available for those that prefer it. I despise the fact that the manual is no longer an option on what has been traditionally a manual only platform. I'd accept Porsche saving development costs and making Carreras, Boxsters and Caymans PDK only to keep up with the Jones's but no option on the GT platform is plain stupid... How would having a slower manual GT3 alongside the PDK version be an issue anyway? They could claim the faster performance times from the PDK for marketing yet provide a manual and give the diehards a stick to shift until they are ready to try PDK...

As for whole manual would be way slower argument, that's rubbish... on paper a 997 4.0RS matches most closely to a 991GT3. Both are approx 500hp (AP stated the 991's 475hp figure was very conservative suggesting closer to 500), they are both widebody, the 4.0RS has better aero whilst the 991 GT3 has a much better chassis apparently (10sec improvement with 991 CS vs 997.2 CS)  and stickier rubber... So all in all it comes down to manual vs pdk yet there is only 2 seconds between the two... Don't live under the disillusion that specced similarly, a manual won't be as fast to within 2-4 seconds... Why? Because thats about as fast as any 500hp , 1400kg, arse engined car can be... Don't expect to see a GT car to ever crack under 7.20 without serious hp or serious weight loss...

So to all of those swallowing the Porsche marketing BS about the PDK being a must for keeping up with the Jone's, wake up!!! Just excuses to justify saving on development costs for the trans that has been in the car all along. They were equally fast 18 months ago with an old chassis, no RWS, sh!tter tyres, an 'outdated' 6 speed manual box with minimal fuss. We also saw what the same sh!t platform with  620hp (GT2RS) managed... 

And as for the references and comparisons to Ferrari, Lamborghini etc, etc and how Porsche are behind the times... What a joke! Lets take a look at the typical buyer of those marques, a cashed up, middle age man with lots of dollars, no passion and no desire to drive. Just a desire to be seen... Why would they want to shift? Most don't even drive their f@#ken cars! They have servants wash them for their once a quarter drive to the local marina to board a yacht! Most sell after 5 years with 2-3000kms. When I see more than one a year at a race track, I'll consider them driver's cars worthy of Porsche keeping up with in the technology sweepstakes! 

RC:

wurlie:

The benefits of the CL system on 997.2 platform are not clear at all. Given the procedure to torque/ re-torque the nuts with the wheels off the ground, greasing procedure, and the maintenance of the nut itself, for an amateur track driver it is easier to use the five lugs.

Of course using the five lugs is easier for an amateur driver but people had a choice here on the 997.2 Carrera. Owners could complaint to Porsche that they failed to communicate the maintenance implications but Porsche didn't seem to have a clue at that time, which is unfortunate, I agree. 

It kind of reminds me of the early PCCB track issues. At some point owners realized that track racing the PCCB brake would be very expensive since it didn't last as long as Porsche promised, simply because track racing took a toll on the PCCB discs and the steel brake discs proved to be less expensive, even if you had to exchange them more often.

 

Furthermore, the CL assembly including the CL wheels is actually heavier than equivalent 5 lug hub assembly. I know, I have a car with the CL.

Not valid for the 991 according to Preuninger. 

Finally, new preventative hub replacement procedure is applicable for the track driving - not racing.

Well, it is actually for track racing, not track driving. I consider track driving the occasional track fun with a driver ed class or a club. Whoever does 50 or more rounds on a track on a single day is track racing, not just track driving. I agree however that there is a thin line here, so Porsche should actually communicate more precisely when the extended maintenance procedures are necessary.

Porsche is asking the 997.2 CL owners to pay for a deficient technology with no technical benefit. I understand that the factory has been generous in case of failures, however, I am not sure that the new time-out schedule is fair.

Best, w

Well, this is a different story. On the other hand, the street driving maintenance procedure stays the same, so if you do not track race your car... 

Porsche has a communication problem here, not only regarding CL but also regarding their street cars: They are not race cars, not even the GT3. So Porsche needs to avoid telling people that they can drive to work and then to the track in the same car. Actually they can but the track fun can have serious consequences, not only regarding maintenance procedures but also regarding the warranty. This is something Porsche needs to make more clear to customers.

Still misinforming everyone about CLs I see RC... FYI, the FACT is that there is no distinction for various types of track driving or racing as you put it! Per the motorsport engineering department at PAG whom I had many discussions with via the local importer, any use on track whether it be 5 laps at 75% or 100 laps at 100% must be logged... Whether you do 7000km at 50% or 100% on the track your hubs must be replaced. It would help to get your facts straight...

Let me stress this as you may have missed it over the 10 pages of arguing on the other thread when you were proven wrong, over and over again, its 7000km of 'track use', not track racing... There is no way a customer could determine what driving is and isn't putting stress on the CL system...

The good news for the numerous manual transmission lovers who are going to desert Porsche due to the recent "PDK Only" policy, is that the British TVR manufacturer is going to open for business again soon. The maker of eccentric and old fashioned automobiles has changed hands for the upteenth time. The lucky new owner is a certain Mr. Edgar,  who intends to give back  to the world of romantics and manly gear-changers their dose of automotive machismo.

Just when we thought everything was lost in the fight against evolution, TVR is rising again!

"Form follows function"

911rox:

RC:

wurlie:

The benefits of the CL system on 997.2 platform are not clear at all. Given the procedure to torque/ re-torque the nuts with the wheels off the ground, greasing procedure, and the maintenance of the nut itself, for an amateur track driver it is easier to use the five lugs.

Of course using the five lugs is easier for an amateur driver but people had a choice here on the 997.2 Carrera. Owners could complaint to Porsche that they failed to communicate the maintenance implications but Porsche didn't seem to have a clue at that time, which is unfortunate, I agree. 

It kind of reminds me of the early PCCB track issues. At some point owners realized that track racing the PCCB brake would be very expensive since it didn't last as long as Porsche promised, simply because track racing took a toll on the PCCB discs and the steel brake discs proved to be less expensive, even if you had to exchange them more often.

 

Furthermore, the CL assembly including the CL wheels is actually heavier than equivalent 5 lug hub assembly. I know, I have a car with the CL.

Not valid for the 991 according to Preuninger. 

Finally, new preventative hub replacement procedure is applicable for the track driving - not racing.

Well, it is actually for track racing, not track driving. I consider track driving the occasional track fun with a driver ed class or a club. Whoever does 50 or more rounds on a track on a single day is track racing, not just track driving. I agree however that there is a thin line here, so Porsche should actually communicate more precisely when the extended maintenance procedures are necessary.

Porsche is asking the 997.2 CL owners to pay for a deficient technology with no technical benefit. I understand that the factory has been generous in case of failures, however, I am not sure that the new time-out schedule is fair.

Best, w

Well, this is a different story. On the other hand, the street driving maintenance procedure stays the same, so if you do not track race your car... 

Porsche has a communication problem here, not only regarding CL but also regarding their street cars: They are not race cars, not even the GT3. So Porsche needs to avoid telling people that they can drive to work and then to the track in the same car. Actually they can but the track fun can have serious consequences, not only regarding maintenance procedures but also regarding the warranty. This is something Porsche needs to make more clear to customers.

Still misinforming everyone about CLs I see RC... FYI, the FACT is that there is no distinction for various types of track driving or racing as you put it! Per the motorsport engineering department at PAG whom I had many discussions with via the local importer, any use on track whether it be 5 laps at 75% or 100 laps at 100% must be logged... Whether you do 7000km at 50% or 100% on the track your hubs must be replaced. It would help to get your facts straight...

Let me stress this as you may have missed it over the 10 pages of arguing on the other thread when you were proven wrong, over and over again, its 7000km of 'track use', not track racing... There is no way a customer could determine what driving is and isn't putting stress on the CL system...

Some good points here, and obviously some tounge in cheek.

A few thoughts. I dont think a manual 991 GT3 would be as quick as the 4.0RS. It has a tad more torque, a bit more horsepower (arguable as to exactly how much but lets agree maybe 20 bhp) and it weights a good 70kg less than the 991 GT3. 

Anyway, that's not important. I guess Porsche decided it would only have one transmission option. MT or PDK-S. It chose PDK-S as the cost to benefit analysis obviously proved in favour of the PDK. AP says his team took this decision based on a number of factors. At this time we have to give some credence to what he says as none of us have driven the car yet.

I think it would have been a perfect solution to have had both choices. However economics for such a small production run vehicle obviously did not fall in favour of the MT enthusiasts amongst us. Im a 991 GT3 customer and my biggest fear was to be given a choice and I have been secretely hankering for try of this PDK technology for a while now (since a few road race guys I know have spoken highly of it) so the PDK only option worked in my favour (i.e. I have my hand forced). I would have been just as happy if they had have made it MT only - infact I may have been happiest of all (as PDK only gets better as generations go on and there is plenty of time to own a PDK car in the future afterall).

For those that will never own an automated gearbox GT car I can only say, in your defence and favour, look at this as a positive. You no longer have to ride the rat race of "latest and greatest" GT cars suffering depreciation and always clamouring to upgrade every 3-4 years. You can now have a rest, keep yyour MT GT3 knowing it was the last of the breed and spend your money enhancing it and making it a better car. Over time you will form an even stronger bond with the car and perhaps never let it go.

This is what happened for me when porsche went watercooled. I just couldnt "love" the 996 (I tried and even owned a 996.1 GT3). The watercooled cars just lost their charm for me (IMHO ugly design, not as well built, not the sound or pretty engine of the air cooled etc). So I kept the 993 I owned, payed with a 993RS and others and 13 years on I still have a air cooled 911 and just love it to bits (will never sell it). Its now had much improvement (suspension, interior, handling,and engine etc) and when the 991 GT3 is been and gone the 993 will still have a place in the garage.

I think Porsche have just given the enthusiast world a gift. They have stopped time. You no longer need to work so hard to finance the next new Porsche and you now have the finest MT GT Porsche ever made in your garage...

For the few of us willing to give the new generation, new technology, new era GT3 a go, only time will tell if it is actually a better solution than the MT only option it replaced. As always it will probably be a stonking good car and alot of fun to own. Some of us may continue the journey with the GT3RS and onwards and some of us may revert back to an "old skool" 3.8GT3 MT. Who knows....

Porsche's marketing strategy is clearly focused on volume growth and "upselling" customers...

...and the 991 GT3 is designed to be an attractive upgrade for, inter alia, existing Carrera and Carrera S owners...

...while many existing GT3 and GT3 RS owners are understandably looking forward to the launch of the 991 GT3 RS... 

Andreas Preuninger:

"In general, the development of a GT3 with a strong forward runs for RS-version based on it.

In the current case, the task is more difficult, because we had a full model change.

Moreover, the differentiation between GT3 and RS is always great.

Until next RS is still a bit to go, but I can already say with full conviction: The RS is just 'wow' 

RS models are the homologation in motorsport. In the development of road and racing cars, the same people are involved - this is a symbiosis for decades."

997 GT3 RS ---> Project 960   Is that 960 project still real? I heard that VW put that to "waiting list"

SportCarGroup:

997 GT3 RS ---> Project 960   Is that 960 project still real? I heard that VW put that to "waiting list"

Porsche is responsible for developing the MSB-M mid-engined platform for the VW Group, which will include follow-ups to the Audi R8 and Lamborghini Gallardo, along with the Porsche 960 Coupe... it is just a matter of timing! 

The charts are infantile. Are you sure they are authentic?

You could ask any car enthusiast which step up models provide attraction to existing Porsche owners and likely they would provide the same answer. Duh!

However, to an investor 21% return on capital and 15% profit margin on sales is  very appealing and would get their attention.

If these charts are authentic (and I suspect that they are) , then this is the first time I have seen the 960 mentioned "officially".

with me they goes wrong 

997 TT-------> 991TTS

no,nein,it costs too much!

997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo

"Increase customer enthusiasm"    I must be the wrong sort of customer because for the first time since I could think about such things, there isn't a new Porsche I want to own. 

Gen II Cayman S

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Porsche's marketing strategy is clearly focused on volume growth and "upselling" customers...

 

...and the 991 GT3 is designed to be an attractive upgrade for, inter alia, existing Carrera and Carrera S owners...

...while many existing GT3 and GT3 RS owners are understandably looking forward to the launch of the 991 GT3 RS... 

Andreas Preuninger:

"In general, the development of a GT3 with a strong forward runs for RS-version based on it.

In the current case, the task is more difficult, because we had a full model change.

Moreover, the differentiation between GT3 and RS is always great.

Until next RS is still a bit to go, but I can already say with full conviction: The RS is just 'wow' 

RS models are the homologation in motorsport. In the development of road and racing cars, the same people are involved - this is a symbiosis for decades."

 

If authentic, these charts are motivation enough never to buy Porsche again... If they are going to treat customers like cash cows, they'd be best to amend their strategy to at least listen to and give customers what they want... A pdk, rws, unproven drivetrain Carrera RS is NOT what this customer wants but thanks anyway....

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Porsche's marketing strategy is clearly focused on volume growth and "upselling" customers...

 

I don't know, there is something I do not like about these charts.

For example: Why would a Carrera S owner upgrade to a GT3? There are no backseats, the ride is stiffer, there is no AWD version and so on. Also the price is higher.

The project 960 sounds interesting but why should GT3 RS owners upgrade to it? Why not upgrade to the GT2 RS?

I don't know if this chart is authentic...any confirmation for that? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

911rox:

Let me stress this as you may have missed it over the 10 pages of arguing on the other thread when you were proven wrong, over and over again, its 7000km of 'track use', not track racing... There is no way a customer could determine what driving is and isn't putting stress on the CL system...

You do not let go, do you?  It is your safety, not mine, so do whatever you think is OK for you.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

frayed:

Frayed, CH said PDK was more fun to drive period! As to his preference, that does not mean a hill of beans to me. If PDK is faster, more fun and engaging on the track that is all that matters. Pete Stout and CH can have their MT if they can find one on a modern car.

Huh?

He did not.  He said the GT3 should have a manual option; the last bastion of the manual gearbox! He went on to say it's a massive shame.  Despite being so much fun, he misses the manual.

Not once did he say it was more fun than a manual.

Lookit, I'm OK with the PDK.  But let's not twist words here.

 

Stupid question (maybe I am wrong): Didn't Chris Harris sell his manual GT3 RS 4.0 and exchanged it with a Ferrari 599 GTB without manual? OK, he sold his 599 GTB recently and he didn't like the gearbox in the 599 (I wonder why he bought the 599 then???) but I cannot help it: I think he is getting a 991 GT3. With PDK. Wanna bet? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

911rox:

Let me stress this as you may have missed it over the 10 pages of arguing on the other thread when you were proven wrong, over and over again, its 7000km of 'track use', not track racing... There is no way a customer could determine what driving is and isn't putting stress on the CL system...

You do not let go, do you?  It is your safety, not mine, so do whatever you think is OK for you.

Nope 

We're entitled to do as we please personally RC but as a key person on this forum, you owe it to those reading and learning to give them the correct information, not how you personally may intend to approach the situation... I'm sure that nobody here will appreciate 100000 hits on youtube for having being misinformed and having lost a wheel... 

911 Rox. Were you one of the 250 people AP mentioned in the recent GT3 interview  in Panorama magazine that lost a CL wheel?

If you want a copy of the interview PM me. If you want a copy of the technical blurb from Porsche on the new GT3 CL wheel system improvements (part of a 105 page technical sales manual for the 991 GT3) then PM me.

No need Macca, lol... I got the technical spill from Porsche PAG themselves on the 997.2 system, the reasons why they got it wrong and why the maintenance schedule is now required... Its all quite laughable and the excuses dismally poor at best. Whilst I value your offer to share details of the new system, proof won't be in the literature but in the pudding itself after these cars have circled tracks for 2-3 years...

AP is making a joke of the whole affair to dismiss their mishandling of the situation... I've seen at least a dozen failures on the net, not a single one with 5 studs yet on a P car...

I agree there was an issue on 997 GT3+RS CL wheels. I asked my Porsche Service Manager (a friend) if they had had any reported inncidences (around 35% of the 22 odd 997.2 GT3/RS were sold by them new in NZ). They havent seen one failure even with tracked cars. But they did acknowledge there were recalls on the system and it had been fustrating for both them and clients.

I would have no issues if the 991 Gt3 was sold with 5 lug system only as the choice of wheels is greater and the need for special tools nil. However I cannot deny they look cool. This was obviously a marketing ploy I guess.

It seems 997.2 GT3 owners got their fair share of issues (CL, cracked pipes etc). I imagine Porsche will want to get it right with the 991 Gt3.

I have my fingers crossed for you 991 guys Macca... I'm hoping all the beta testing we 997.2 guys did will give you guys the fool proof system you deserve!