Crown

fun cannot be measured in "times" - unless you make yr living with it - I don't understand the whole discussion about "being faster with PDK" as amateur's we want to extract the most fun as we're hopeless in "timing" against professionals anyway. I just came back from a Track day in Spa with Johnny Mowlem - who btw drives in LeMans next week- end - and trust me in saying you would loose big time in the new GT3 vs even a old one him driving - professionals drive in a different world - our group of 5 "experienced drivers" could not believe the times he was extracting......we were all driving "useless"....lines,shifting times, slow in fast out, Blanchimot , Au rouge - sitting next to such a guy for a couple of laps opens eyes !!! (a sample picture of the caliber cars that were there....)

BjoernB:

fun cannot be measured in "times" - unless you make yr living with it - I don't understand the whole discussion about "being faster with PDK" as amateur's we want to extract the most fun as we're hopeless in "timing" against professionals anyway. I just came back from a Track day in Spa with Johnny Mowlem - who btw drives in LeMans next week- end - and trust me in saying you would loose big time in the new GT3 vs even a old one him driving - professionals drive in a different world - our group of 5 "experienced drivers" could not believe the times he was extracting......we were all driving "useless"....lines,shifting times, slow in fast out, Blanchimot , Au rouge - sitting next to such a guy for a couple of laps opens eyes !!! (a sample picture of the caliber cars that were there....)

 

Maybe this is the reason why amateurs seem to cherish pure manual more than professionals? 

Just saying... 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

BjoernB:

fun cannot be measured in "times" - unless you make yr living with it - I don't understand the whole discussion about "being faster with PDK" as amateur's we want to extract the most fun as we're hopeless in "timing" against professionals anyway. I just came back from a Track day in Spa with Johnny Mowlem - who btw drives in LeMans next week- end - and trust me in saying you would loose big time in the new GT3 vs even a old one him driving - professionals drive in a different world - our group of 5 "experienced drivers" could not believe the times he was extracting......we were all driving "useless"....lines,shifting times, slow in fast out, Blanchimot , Au rouge - sitting next to such a guy for a couple of laps opens eyes !!! (a sample picture of the caliber cars that were there....)

 

 

Fantastic! Johnny Mowlem is a very fast driver indeed!!!

pxaxh:

Video from Sportauto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu6o0hCFR5Y

991 GT3 for a few second....rest of the video 997-2 GT3 run...

BjoernB:

fun cannot be measured in "times" - unless you make yr living with it - I don't understand the whole discussion about "being faster with PDK" as amateur's we want to extract the most fun as we're hopeless in "timing" against professionals anyway. I just came back from a Track day in Spa with Johnny Mowlem - who btw drives in LeMans next week- end - and trust me in saying you would loose big time in the new GT3 vs even a old one him driving - professionals drive in a different world - our group of 5 "experienced drivers" could not believe the times he was extracting......we were all driving "useless"....lines,shifting times, slow in fast out, Blanchimot , Au rouge - sitting next to such a guy for a couple of laps opens eyes !!! (a sample picture of the caliber cars that were there....)

Too bad the 918 doesn't have this 12-Cylinder monster engine 

SportCarGroup:

pxaxh:

Video from Sportauto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu6o0hCFR5Y

991 GT3 for a few second....rest of the video 997-2 GT3 run...

it's not a 997-2 run but a red 991 GT3. I know the intro scene is misleading.

--

997 GT3 3.8

Gauss:

SportCarGroup:

pxaxh:

Video from Sportauto: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu6o0hCFR5Y

991 GT3 for a few second....rest of the video 997-2 GT3 run...

it's not a 997-2 run but a red 991 GT3. I know the intro scene is misleading.

--

997 GT3 3.8

You're right, damn intro

All this talk about having a manual option at extra cost is fanciful (according to previous comments by Preuninger) - it is not the cost of the manual unit that is the issue, it is the development that has been carried out by e PDK that would need to be re-done with a manual box if the car is to be made as good as the PDK version.

It makes no financial sense for Porsche to do this at this stage, but a manual RS version must be a possibility.

I'm perfectly happy with the choice of PDK for my GT3, not because it is faster, simply because i believe it allows more flexibility and ease if use when driving in town whilst still being fun when I'm out for the sake of driving! (I base this on the enjoyment I've had from a (supposedly much inferior) normal PDK gearbox.

Sidicks

BjoernB:

fun cannot be measured in "times" - unless you make yr living with it - I don't understand the whole discussion about "being faster with PDK" as amateur's we want to extract the most fun as we're hopeless in "timing" against professionals anyway. I just came back from a Track day in Spa with Johnny Mowlem - who btw drives in LeMans next week- end - and trust me in saying you would loose big time in the new GT3 vs even a old one him driving - professionals drive in a different world - our group of 5 "experienced drivers" could not believe the times he was extracting......we were all driving "useless"....lines,shifting times, slow in fast out, Blanchimot , Au rouge - sitting next to such a guy for a couple of laps opens eyes !!! (a sample picture of the caliber cars that were there....)

 

 

couldnt agree more bjoern.

Otherwise, its a good and useful discussion here. What I dont like is that the so praised CH is saying the 997 chassis at the front was a problem (to a degree its correct, but..), why didnt he say that 2 years ago when he praised it so much?

I wonder what he will tell you when the new 991.2 GT3 comes out,..? He will then refer to your f 991 GT3 as " a lame duck from the stoneage time etc."...

Its just another journalist opinion...and think about it - the fact that he got the car as first means something..(with regards to neutrality). I value independent reviews much more...for example by rennteam users..

I am not against PDK - I just try to "pro-argue for manual - actually in my everyday cars I would never buy a manual for the rest of my life probably - but for me in a fun car it's not about 0-100 times or how fast it does 300 - but how much fun I can extract during A-B - anyway since CH went back from his 4.0 to a 599 as his "fun drive" I don't think he is biased but is a guy that drove so many cars and can extremely well express himself of what he feels against previous models and other cars ! The guy is a icon for me !

Spyderidol:

BjoernB:

fun cannot be measured in "times" - unless you make yr living with it - I don't understand the whole discussion about "being faster with PDK" as amateur's we want to extract the most fun as we're hopeless in "timing" against professionals anyway. I just came back from a Track day in Spa with Johnny Mowlem - who btw drives in LeMans next week- end - and trust me in saying you would loose big time in the new GT3 vs even a old one him driving - professionals drive in a different world - our group of 5 "experienced drivers" could not believe the times he was extracting......we were all driving "useless"....lines,shifting times, slow in fast out, Blanchimot , Au rouge - sitting next to such a guy for a couple of laps opens eyes !!! (a sample picture of the caliber cars that were there....)

 

 

Fantastic! Johnny Mowlem is a very fast driver indeed!!!

Check this out - I am going to watch it from the pits

Startnummer 30

Team: HVM Status GP
Fahrzeug: Lola B12/80 Coupe - Judd
Fahrer: Johnny Mowlem / Anthony Burgess / Jonathan Hirschi
Klasse: LMP2

BjoernB:

I am not against PDK - I just try to "pro-argue for manual - actually in my everyday cars I would never buy a manual for the rest of my life probably - but for me in a fun car it's not about 0-100 times or how fast it does 300 - but how much fun I can extract during A-B - anyway since CH went back from his 4.0 to a 599 as his "fun drive" I don't think he is biased but is a guy that drove so many cars and can extremely well express himself of what he feels against previous models and other cars ! The guy is a icon for me !

Agreed. This is why I want people to have an option but I heard a rumor that PDK development for the GT3 wasn't cheap and if people would have a choice...  Of course I think it is also easier for Porsche to sell a model with one transmission option only or at least I guess so... On the other hand, I wonder: Why does Porsche still offer the Boxster, Cayman and the 991 Carrera with manual?  There are certain inconsistencies in Porsche model policy but maybe Preuninger explained pretty well why he decided to go with PDK only. 

Speaking of CH: He likes to drift, I don't. He loves to experience extreme driving situations, I love to avoid extreme driving situations. I was like him when I was younger, testing my limits, trying to play around but at a certain age, you are getting tired of that and you just want to be...fast...and sometimes safe.

Before someone tells me he is a pro and I'm not: You don't know me. At all.   

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Harris drifts b/c he's putting on a show.  Lurid drifts are great to watch.

He did a great job with this teaser vid.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

RC:

BjoernB:

fun cannot be measured in "times" - unless you make yr living with it - I don't understand the whole discussion about "being faster with PDK" as amateur's we want to extract the most fun as we're hopeless in "timing" against professionals anyway. I just came back from a Track day in Spa with Johnny Mowlem - who btw drives in LeMans next week- end - and trust me in saying you would loose big time in the new GT3 vs even a old one him driving - professionals drive in a different world - our group of 5 "experienced drivers" could not believe the times he was extracting......we were all driving "useless"....lines,shifting times, slow in fast out, Blanchimot , Au rouge - sitting next to such a guy for a couple of laps opens eyes !!! (a sample picture of the caliber cars that were there....)

 

Maybe this is the reason why amateurs seem to cherish pure manual more than professionals? 

Just saying... 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Some professionals still like manual better:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/26/lewis-hamilton-orders-custom-pagani-zonda-with-760-hp-and-manual/

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

frayed:

Harris drifts b/c he's putting on a show.  Lurid drifts are great to watch.

He did a great job with this teaser vid.

I know but he also greatly enjoys it. He is a very good driver indeed but I know a couple of show-offs who drift pretty spectacular but actually can't get it right on the track because they simply can't keep their act together. Even worse on public streets... 

Yes, Chris Harris knows how to tease, no doubt about it, he is a great (car) entertainer. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

...and he  clearly stated that the gt3 with pdk is a lot of FUN! even for him as MT freak...

fantastic and competent review, can't wait to drive that car!!! 

turbolite

RC - Please stop bashing people who like manuals by claiming they don't want to go fast or can't find the correct line or entry speed.  Perhaps you don't see it but some people prefer to walk others like to ride in wheelchairs cause it is faster.  The fact remains that the manual is lighter and less complicated.  I am certain that at some point the steering will be automated and faster and then driving hands off will be THE THING to do. 

For now I am not ready for a wheel chair, I can walk and shift just fine.  I prefer it.  There are lots of things I do for myself.  I still drive without cruise control, especially on my long drives of 20+ hours straight.  The only reason I would get PDK is for gas mileage in the 911 (tall 7th gear).  I don't insist that everyone who likes or prefers PDK is ignorant or foolish or somehow not thinking clearly.  Seriously!  I love the way that GT3 launches and shift fast.  But now that I have seen it it just would get very boring after a while.

Now picture this - a typical American event - two cars side by side 60mph on the highway.  Third gear 60-100mph, no shifting required - PDK vs manual - who would win?  The manual of course because it weighs less!  (handles and stops quicker as well).  So even your MAJOR decision factor - who is faster - is murky given the circumstances.  To be clear the manual car is accelerating faster, handling better and stopping quicker - because it weighs less.  The PDK is slower in every measure but makes up the time by shifting faster.  Since I like shifting myself the increase in shift speed does not interest me in the least so the other factors (speed, handling and stopping) are my priorities.  We have not even discussed longevity and durability - I drive old cars - how long will the PDK last and what will it cost to rebuild?  Simpler is better for me in that regard as well.  I think you get my point.  It is not black or white, right or wrong.  The fact is Porsche has decided what is right and wrong.  We are free to agree or disagree but we can't build or own GT3 manual so who cares.  Just be considerate of opinions else there is no need for a discussion forum. 

I don't know about your driving but when I shift I do it without thinking and I do it smoothly.  It is a pleasure and a joy.  My favorite analogy is that the automatic is like someone else servicing my girlfriend - which can be fun and efficient, but not the same. 

Cheers

Leawood911:

RC - Please stop bashing people who like manuals by claiming they don't want to go fast or can't find the correct line or entry speed.  Perhaps you don't see it but some people prefer to walk others like to ride in wheelchairs.  The fact remains that the manual is lighter and less complicated.  I am certain that at some point the steering will be automated and faster and driving hands off will be THE THING to do.  For now I am not ready for a wheel chair, I can walk and shift just fine.  I prefer it.  There are lots of things I do for myself.  I still drive without cruise control, especially on my long drives of 20+ hours straight.  The only reason I would get PDK is for gas mileage in the 911 (tall 7th gear).  I don't insist that everyone who likes or prefers PDK is ignorant or foolish or somehow not thinking clearly.  Seriously!

Now picture this typical American event - two cars side by side 60mph on the highway.  Third gear 60-100mph, no shifting required - PDK vs manual - who would win?  The manual of course because it weighs less!  (handles and stops quicker as well).  So even your MAJOR decision factor - who is faster - is murky given the circumstances.

I don't know about your driving but when I shift I do it without thinking.  It is a pleasure and a joy.  My favorite analogy is that the automatic is like someone else servicing my girlfriend - which can be fun and efficient, but not the same.

I didn't bash anyone, I just said what I think and others have a different opinion and I respect that. Some actually made it pretty clear that they prefer manual over PDK because they enjoy the shifting experience, not being the fastest and I can relate to that pretty well (which I confirmed in many of my posts, this is why I suggested that Porsche offers a choice, manual as an option for example). 

Also, have you ever wondered why many of your posts have some sort of an analogy to sex? And by analogy, I do not mean what you may think. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

nberry:

Carlos, he made it clear at the beginning that that car is controversial because of the lack of MT. He was well aware that the MT fans which are a big part of his  of his audience were hoping he would find fault with the car. Instead he said

That's not it Nick, he didn't say what he said about the manual to "cater" to an audience, he said it because he believes it and if you would have followed him over the years you would see that it's consistent with what he had always said, and on top of it he was still able to recognize how good the PDK is. He is not only very knowledgeable when it comes to sportscars, he is also very objective, but most of all he is one of "us", not one of those that do it for the job or a poseur, he "lives" it. And no one conveys insight into the driving dynamics and character of the cars like he does.

Also, have you ever wondered why many of your posts have some sort of an analogy to sex? And by analogy, I do not mean what you may think.

Numbers?  Not that many I hope...  I just like that analogy, it is very fitting.  Also, I do enjoy sex a lot more than Porsches - if that is not the case then you are not having good sex.

I do not understand why the overwhelming majority of manual transmission advocates/defenders inevitably advance their opinion/argument with pejorative statements about PDK and by extension PDK drivers.  I absolutely agree that a GT3 should be available w/ a manual transmission. There is no need to condescend, belittle, or mock those who prefer one over the other. The only point of contention should be that Porsche chose one over the other to be its sole offering.

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

Carlos, he made it clear at the beginning that that car is controversial because of the lack of MT. He was well aware that the MT fans which are a big part of his  of his audience were hoping he would find fault with the car. Instead he said

That's not it Nick, he didn't say what he said about the manual to "cater" to an audience, he said it because he believes it and if you would have followed him over the years you would see that it's consistent with what he had always said, and on top of it he was still able to recognize how good the PDK is. He is not only very knowledgeable when it comes to sportscars, he is also very objective, but most of all he is one of "us", not one of those that do it for the job or a poseur, he "lives" it. And no one conveys insight into the driving dynamics and character of the cars like he does.

Carlos, we are agreeing with each other. I did not say he was dishonest but rather diplomatic in tell the MT heads the end is near if not already here.

nberry:

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

Carlos, he made it clear at the beginning that that car is controversial because of the lack of MT. He was well aware that the MT fans which are a big part of his  of his audience were hoping he would find fault with the car. Instead he said

That's not it Nick, he didn't say what he said about the manual to "cater" to an audience, he said it because he believes it and if you would have followed him over the years you would see that it's consistent with what he had always said, and on top of it he was still able to recognize how good the PDK is. He is not only very knowledgeable when it comes to sportscars, he is also very objective, but most of all he is one of "us", not one of those that do it for the job or a poseur, he "lives" it. And no one conveys insight into the driving dynamics and character of the cars like he does.

Carlos, we are agreeing with each other. I did not say he was dishonest but rather diplomatic in tell the MT heads the end is near if not already here.

The thing is he is a MT head himself, he si not being diplomatic for anyones sake, he called it like he saw it, he is not catering to anyone. And being a MT head he is still objective enough to praise the PDK and recognise its strong points, and has owned auto sportcars cars himself. This is one of the things I like about CH. But all this that doesn't mean that PDK doesn't have any down sides all for some sportcar drivers, which is what he is pointing out, and the fact that Porsche is ont offering a manual option alongside the PDK. No matter if you preffer PDK or manual, everyone agrees that not having a manual option is not a good thing from Porsche (when the GT3 was only manual I always complained about it not having a PDK option for those that would preffer it) unless you are a prick and don't care about anyone else as long as it has the PDK.

--

Christian Gebhardt from Sport Auto in their latest edition drove the GT3 in the spanish mountains too (three journalists where invited, him, Charris and Pete Stout).

He confirms all the impressions that CH reported: fantastic steering (he claims on par with 997 one),  bombastic engine, superb chassis and perfect PDK. He also concludes that the car is great but wishes for a manual option, at least for the GT3 RS. 

And Timo Kluck is the one who drove the 7.25 on the Nuerburgring  

turbolite

DaveC:

I do not understand why the overwhelming majority of manual transmission advocates/defenders inevitably advance their opinion/argument with pejorative statements about PDK and by extension PDK drivers.  I absolutely agree that a GT3 should be available w/ a manual transmission. There is no need to condescend, belittle, or mock those who prefer one over the other. The only point of contention should be that Porsche chose one over the other to be its sole offering.

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

If one reviews the entire thread, most of the barbs have come from the PDK crowd insisting that the manual wanting crowd are knuckle-dragging Neanderthals for not wanting to optimize shift times to go faster around a track.  If others want a PDK fine, I personally want a manual transmission in the sportiest of the 911s.  If Porsche does not want to build that car, again fine, and this is the argument I had advanced before, which was soundly rejected by RC, then build a higher performance Cayman.  There's enough market space for these cars to exist without much market overlap.

 "unless you are a prick and don't care about anyone else as long as it has the PDK."

That would be me.

BTW, if you don't think journalist are aware of their audience you are not in tune with the world. The all are including CH.

turbolite:

Christian Gebhardt from Sport Auto in their latest edition drove the GT3 in the spanish mountains too (three journalists where invited, him, Charris and Pete Stout).

He confirms all the impressions that CH reported: fantastic steering (he claims on par with 997 one),  bombastic engine, superb chassis and perfect PDK. He also concludes that the car is great but wishes for a manual option, at least for the GT3 RS. 

And Timo Kluck is the one who drove the 7.25 on the Nuerburgring  

 

I guess Timo has the hot hand, huh?  7.38 in the 991S now 7.25 in the GT3.  Veeeeery fast.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

nberry:

 "unless you are a prick and don't care about anyone else as long as it has the PDK."

That would be me.

BTW, if you don't think journalist are aware of their audience you are not in tune with the world. The all are including CH.

That does not necesarily imply that all say what part of the audience want to hear no matter what they actually think, and if you wouyld have followed CH you would know on which group he is in, otherwise follwing your frivolous theory we would also have to accept that the PDK is a piece of junk and he only said it was good to cater to the PDK crowd 

Interesting comments on the 991 GT3 from Pete Stout, who attended the preview with Chris Harris and Sport Auto...

Pete Stout:

"See the white flash go by Chris' thumbs up? That was me. And trust me, there was plenty of driving time, on great roads, in this deal. More quality seat time in the first afternoon than on the main day of most press intros—and no car sharing. 

For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is a 10 out of 10. Might even be an 11, but I'll need to wait for more time with the car Stateside.

 

As to those cynical about CH, I think I may now have actually seen it all...   

 

...

 

As far as I'm concerned, the journalists invited to this represented a gutsy move on Porsche's part: They're known for calling it like they see it, and they know the previous (excellent) cars intimately. They also know the target market well—both in terms of studying it and in actually knowing a lot of the customers, often on a personal level. 

 

If the car was a bust, I assure you...you would've heard as much from CH. And me. 

 

So while the overall take went very, very well for PAG—and AP's team more than earned the high praise—the verdict re: the decision not to offer a manual was unanimous: We all pined for three pedals, even if we recognized that Porsche will likely find more buyers with the 991 GT3 than it did with the 997s. Hence my one qualification. For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is an incredible car. 

 

But, without the option of a manual, I'm afraid the GT3 has fallen off my personal dream car list. It's been an interesting matter for me to ponder, both from a professional and a personal/philosophical standpoint...and I agree with Chris that there must be some separation of the two."

 

pete

 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Interesting comments on the 991 GT3 from Pete Stout, who attended the preview with Chris Harris and Sport Auto...

Pete Stout:

"See the white flash go by Chris' thumbs up? That was me. And trust me, there was plenty of driving time, on great roads, in this deal. More quality seat time in the first afternoon than on the main day of most press intros—and no car sharing. 

For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is a 10 out of 10. Might even be an 11, but I'll need to wait for more time with the car Stateside.

 

As to those cynical about CH, I think I may now have actually seen it all...   

 

...

 

As far as I'm concerned, the journalists invited to this represented a gutsy move on Porsche's part: They're known for calling it like they see it, and they know the previous (excellent) cars intimately. They also know the target market well—both in terms of studying it and in actually knowing a lot of the customers, often on a personal level. 

 

If the car was a bust, I assure you...you would've heard as much from CH. And me. 

 

So while the overall take went very, very well for PAG—and AP's team more than earned the high praise—the verdict re: the decision not to offer a manual was unanimous: We all pined for three pedals, even if we recognized that Porsche will likely find more buyers with the 991 GT3 than it did with the 997s. Hence my one qualification. For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is an incredible car. 

 

But, without the option of a manual, I'm afraid the GT3 has fallen off my personal dream car list. It's been an interesting matter for me to ponder, both from a professional and a personal/philosophical standpoint...and I agree with Chris that there must be some separation of the two."

 

pete

Well said. It's clear all three agreed on the fact of not offering the manual option is  a limitation for this car as some drivers feel that is what a true sport car needs to have. And they all agree the car is superb the way it is.

Personally I'm very happy with the PDK offering, cause nowadays I wouldnt consider buying a sports car without one. I have some oldtimers in the garage if i want to get  the manual feeling...

turbolite