Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread

    Jun 3, 2013 6:05:20 PM

    kashmir
    Senior
    kashmir
    Loc: Germany , Germany
    Posts: 596, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 18, 2004
    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    RC:
    kashmir:

    Interesting thread. 


    At the end its always a question of personal taste and preferences.

    Being a lifetime Porsche fan...I have to admit I am also disappointed with their current model range (911 getting to GT, too influenced by Panamera). Still think 991 turbo/S is a great car, though I would have loved to see the turbo S closer to 600 hp (580hp?), with some more exclusive extras which justifies that price increase.

    On the MP4-12C.... I really, really like it. Fantastic drive, stunning fast, nice finish. BTW being also tall...I didn´t have an issue to fit in.

     

     

    This is actually a very valid point. Let's just hope that the real life performance is better than it looks on paper.

    I am also very curious about throttle response, turbo lag (or the lack of), AWD setup (the 997 Turbo/Turbo S had too much RWD characteristics, which doesn't make sense for an AWD car in my opinion) and PDK reaction. According to some recent information I got, there have been substantial improvements. This is actually what I do not understand: Porsche claims to have used aprox. 90% new parts in the new 991 Turbo/Turbo S, which would actually make it a completely new car vs. the "old" 997 Turbo/Turbo S. Now while this sounds impressive, I would love to know what the differences are. On paper, the 991 Turbo/Turbo S looks like a nice evolution of the 997 Turbo/Turbo S but then, why use 90% new parts? So what are the enhancements? Why did Porsche use 90% new parts? What are the differences in detail? Or did Porsche just change the parts to save money and to improve profit? Considering the price hike, I rather want to believe that Porsche really put something new on the street here. 

    Porsche needs to understand that customers are curious and furthermore, they want to know what they pay for.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    My hope/impression was when Porsche escaped* under the VW roof, that they concentrate on making sportscars/leading technology/performance. The introducting of the 911 GT2RS with a 90hp jump over the predecessor was  a good start.... Though Macan, parts of the 991 design and giving focus on a €1 Mio sportscar on hybrid and 3 litre consumption is the other part of the medal. I thought this mini-mini powerr steps are over. I think 580/590hp would be the right power figure for the turbo s.

    The difference between the MP4-12C and GT2RS, is the limited edition of the last one. I suspect the 991 GT2 not going (much) over 620hp. 

    And I wouldn´t be surprised if we see a track oriented version of the MP4-12C . Lighter, different set-up, some race ingredients...and 650hp.

    *escape explaines how I feel about the Porsche/VW thing....I know it was a takeover, though I hoped it would never happen.

    Jun 3, 2013 7:00:53 PM

    hunterone
    Senior
    hunterone
    Loc: Vienna , Austria
    Posts: 582, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 9, 2006
    Reply to: kashmir

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    I think also that the 991 Turbo S should be around 580-600HP to be competitive in straight line especially at higher speeds. In the comparison tests it would win because of the rear wheel steering – that brings the tracktime. But we all need to look forward to test drive the car and make our own opinion.

    Jun 4, 2013 4:38:48 AM

    blade1
    Newbie
    blade1
    Loc: somewhere , United States
    Posts: 38, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 28, 2008
    Reply to: hunterone

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    I wonder why the 12C's used price has dropped so much; it seems like a great, great car .... why doesn't it hold it's value ??  Very strange to lose that much in one year.

    Jun 4, 2013 5:44:50 AM

    hunterone
    Senior
    hunterone
    Loc: Vienna , Austria
    Posts: 582, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 9, 2006
    Reply to: blade1

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    To many 2012 Coupes cars produced (arround VIN 1800 end of 2012). Some are still sitting new right now at the dealer lots. And the Spider got released to short after the Coupe, so many existing customers switched to the Spider and "flooded" the market with used Coupes, so the prices dropped. And you see it here in the discussion that not many have the "balls" in the current economic situation to go for the MP4-12C, so the initial customers bought their cars, and no new ones are coming.

    But im in for a 2012 coupe, maybe not now but next April my current lease rans out and then i want to switch.

    Jun 4, 2013 6:27:27 AM

    GnilM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Gnil
    Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland
    Posts: 14171, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 11, 2005
    Reply to: blade1

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    blade1:

    I wonder why the 12C's used price has dropped so much; it seems like a great, great car .... why doesn't it hold it's value ??  Very strange to lose that much in one year.

    On our market they keep their value quite well . Much better then the 458 . It must be that there are very few. On the second hand market on Auto scout , their are about  10  12C for sale vs about 80  F458 .


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

    Jun 4, 2013 10:39:25 AM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
    Posts: 59581, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: hunterone

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    hunterone:

    I think also that the 991 Turbo S should be around 580-600HP to be competitive in straight line especially at higher speeds. In the comparison tests it would win because of the rear wheel steering – that brings the tracktime. But we all need to look forward to test drive the car and make our own opinion.

    I still have hopes that the current Porsche performance claims for the 991 Turbo and Turbo S are very conservative.

    Like I said before, test cars have done 0-100 kph in under 3 seconds and 0-200 kph in under 10 seconds and according to my source, these cars were already running on stock hardware and software. So my hopes are high but I can't exclude that I may be disappointed.

    If the new 991 Turbo S gives the "old" 997 Turbo S a run for it's money, I am happy. Meaning: At least one car length difference from 0-200 kph (125 mph) with a rolling start from 30 kph and two car lengths with a start from standstill. This is all I ask. Smiley

    Btw: As far as I heard, Porsche is still doing some minor software tweaks on the 991 Turbo S, so maybe there is a chance that the performance increases slightly. 

    I also heard that the 991 Turbo/Turbo S AWD system got a new setup, more neutral this time, which is a good thing in my opinion. If I want to drive a 911 with RWD feel, I buy a RWD 911.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Jun 6, 2013 3:14:26 AM

    GT Offline
    Senior
    GT
    Loc: london , United Kingdom
    Posts: 618, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 14, 2006
    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    mp4 needs an electronic diff. And a bit more torque. Was a sin to have an open diff in a car like this and rely on massive brake steer setup.

    The rest they fixed with the upgrade. Next model generation will probably be the best car in its segment.

    Btw for those that prefer the 458, it is now in a completely different performance league to the 2013 MP4. The difference in performance is so great that they probably should not be even mentioned in the same sentence anymore (not press cars of course).

     

    Jun 6, 2013 3:31:38 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
    Rennteam Moderator
    Whoopsy
    Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada
    Posts: 16151, Gallery
    Registered on: Sep 19, 2006
    Reply to: GT

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    Ferrari needs a e-diff because their traction control tuning is so bad. TC and the brake steer on the McLaren is so good that not sure if a e-diff is gonna help it get meaningfully better times. 

    Jun 6, 2013 5:21:13 AM

    hunterone
    Senior
    hunterone
    Loc: Vienna , Austria
    Posts: 582, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 9, 2006
    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    I was happy without e-diff but a lil bit more torque would be warmly welcomed ;)

    Jun 6, 2013 6:33:25 AM

    MKSGRM
    Rennteam Moderator
    MKSGR
    Loc: Germany , Germany
    Posts: 8098, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 17, 2002
    Reply to: GT

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    GT:

    the 458, it is now in a completely different performance league to the 2013 MP4. The difference in performance is so great that they probably should not be even mentioned in the same sentence anymore (not press cars of course).

     

    I agree with that - we need to wait for the 458 successor to have a close competitor again Smiley

    Jun 6, 2013 6:56:08 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
    Rennteam Moderator
    Whoopsy
    Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada
    Posts: 16151, Gallery
    Registered on: Sep 19, 2006
    Reply to: hunterone

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    hunterone:

    I was happy without e-diff but a lil bit more torque would be warmly welcomed ;)

     

    Haha, I routinely drives the MP4 and the Turbo S back to back, as both are modern turbo-ed cars, they have great low end torque unlike NA high revving engines, I can't really tell which one pulls harder to be honest. The V8 really pulls hard all over the rev range so I am actually hard pressed to think of where in the rev range could the extra torque goes.

    But then again I am a car guy, and find a car guy who doesn't like more HP and more torque. :)

    The one car that needs extra torque, especially down low is the 458, one really needs to wind up the motor to get anything out of it, like the old school turbo, you get nothing, then nothing, then wham POWER!!!

    Jun 6, 2013 7:19:40 AM

    hunterone
    Senior
    hunterone
    Loc: Vienna , Austria
    Posts: 582, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 9, 2006
    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    Whoopsy you described that better than me :) - It’s the overall pressure from the engine through the entire Rev range and not the Turbo Whoomp down low.

    Jun 6, 2013 5:04:56 PM

    GT Offline
    Senior
    GT
    Loc: london , United Kingdom
    Posts: 618, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 14, 2006
    Reply to: hunterone

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    more torque is possible from the engine, the gearbox is the question.

    Comment re the lack of some kind of LSD is that it robs some of the pleasure of positioning the car as a driver. You cant use weight transfer to get the nose in, and throttle yourself out of a corner with an MP4 (with or without a small drift). The car is doing sth different, you need to provoke understeer and then you can feel the brake steer rotating the car. I drove it at dunsfold and it was obvious that Ron Dennis decided how this car has to be driven.

    I say with less brake steer and a e-diff they could get similar pace but sooooo much more driver involvement. But then it would be more demanding in terms of skill to drive fast. A bit like a GT2.

    Mclaren told me that they were trying LSD and it did not work with brake steer. I am not sure i believe that as the hydraulic roll system gives such excellent traction for a rwd (much ahead of its class) that i am positive it would work very well with less brake steer input. I am 99% sure that the decision was driven by weight (and marketing)  as a mechanical diff would add 30kgs or sth. And a weightless e-diff would take long time to develop from scratch..

    I bet you the next MP4 12c sport or whatever wont have an open diff... (hint; most of the early criticisms from jourmalists etc were because of that btw). If you think about it the rest of the early comments from journalists they addressed pre launch (see Metcalf's comments that were spot on mainly) or with subsequent updates.

     

     

    Jun 6, 2013 5:41:58 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
    Rennteam Moderator
    Whoopsy
    Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada
    Posts: 16151, Gallery
    Registered on: Sep 19, 2006
    Reply to: GT

    Re: Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt drove a McLaren 12C Spider to test its top speed

    It has more to do with McLaren's culture. They are so clinical, more 'German' than the real Germans. They created a car that will corners on rail and faster than the competitions by a wide margin on race tracks. Their straight forward thinkings means they do not understands there are people in the world who prefer to go 4/10s slower a lap just so they can hang the tail out during cornering for the 'fun' part. Somehow they didn't factored in the 'fun' part.

    Witness the un-defeatable traction control during launching and the barrage of complaints they received and the subsequent software updates to give the option to turn off TC completely.

    The brake-steer is another go fast item that sometimes gets on the owners nerves. It pretty much go against conventional driving wisdom. Normal people corners slow in fast out, gold rule of cornering since the beginning of time, but this will not trigger the brake steer. To use it one will need to turn in 'hot', but then the electronics takes over and you will be doing fast in and even faster out.  

     

     
    Edit

    Forum

    1. All 

    Boards

     
    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM     		763707 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS     		436094 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM     		260858 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48     		257818 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA     		82569 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut     		5325 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    		 875657 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant     		808456 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry     		387747 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/17/24 8:53 PM
    GaussM     		385776 1452
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut     		368799 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker     		366710 797
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 4/21/23 8:09 AM
    the-missile     		289799 550
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie     		286474 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    		 259226 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug     		237559 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel     		225578 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel     		220100 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug     		167113 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut     		139054 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA     		115787 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM     		107631 685
    Others Valkyrie final design? 4/28/23 2:45 AM
    Rossi     		99343 219
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM     		83652 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame     		74906 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM     		53228 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM     		24722 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy     		20963 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie     		19235 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997     		16471 120
    129 items found, displaying 1 to 30.