Crown

I guess my only point is that while they have no trouble selling all the automatic Ferraris they can make (and likely the same with the 991 GT3), there is still an untapped market for both marques with manual boxes (it's not just a Porsche thing).  Not sure if one can make a good business case for satisfying that market or not...

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

I guess my only point is that while they have no trouble selling all the automatic Ferraris they can make (and likely the same with the 991 GT3), there is still an untapped market for both marques with manual boxes (it's not just a Porsche thing).  Not sure if one can make a good business case for satisfying that market or not...

Yes, I agree. There is an untapped market for manual equipped Ferraris and Porsches and maybe even other cars but concentrating on one transmission choice actually makes development easier and probably cheaper too.

I think manufacturers should offer choices but on the other hand, I wouldn't hold back buying a car because it isn't available with manual.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

My understanding is when Ferrari introduced the California, they made MT available to prospective buyers. Of all the orders they took only one ordered manual. Clearly, only the hardcore enthusiast/ traditionalist covet MT. Manufacturers have to move on.

nberry:

My understanding is when Ferrari introduced the California, they made MT available to prospective buyers. Of all the orders they took only one ordered manual. Clearly, only the hardcore enthusiast/ traditionalist covet MT. Manufacturers have to move on.

Hmm, hardcore enthusiast/traditionalist Ferrarista would not consider the California in the first place. Having MT in a California is like having MT in a Bentley Continental. Only the stupid would pick MT in such a car.

Makes you wonder if Ferrari made MT available to prospective 458 buyers, how many would order?

nberry:

My understanding is when Ferrari introduced the California, they made MT available to prospective buyers. Of all the orders they took only one ordered manual. Clearly, only the hardcore enthusiast/ traditionalist covet MT. Manufacturers have to move on.

Yes, but the California is the one model that is probably best suited to an automatic box.  If they had built a 458 Challenge Stradale (or Scuderia or whatever hardcore model) with optional manual 7spd, I think that would've sold better.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Hi Guys.

The 991 GT3 Rennlist forums have dissolved into a sh*t slinging match on almost every thread between those who think the new GT3 is crap and those who are fending it. Pretty incredible given no one has driven it.

It would be nice if we could keep this thread relevant to the original topic and post new information and articles we find on the car. 

Just a suggestion. Converstaion about MT vs PDK, Bucket seats and track warrantys gets mighty boring when every thread on every board ends up stuck on such conversations.....

Agreed, Macca.  Things are outta control over there.

macca993:

Hi Guys.

The 991 GT3 Rennlist forums have dissolved into a sh*t slinging match on almost every thread between those who think the new GT3 is crap and those who are fending it. Pretty incredible given no one has driven it.

It would be nice if we could keep this thread relevant to the original topic and post new information and articles we find on the car. 

Just a suggestion. Converstaion about MT vs PDK, Bucket seats and track warrantys gets mighty boring when every thread on every board ends up stuck on such conversations.....

OK, so we should stop the manual vs. PDK discussion until someone has actually driven the car to provide some feedback. 

A little information for those who ordered a GT3 in the US (Nick...etc.): It seems that first GT3 will be delivered to US customers in November, not earlier. Not sure how accurate this information is but the source is usually trustful.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Yay! Some new conent! Thanks very much!!!

Christian I believe your source is accurate. October production with deliveries in the US in November. On another board, there is a rumor that German deliveries have been delayed until the end of September or October. Reason given has to do with the "heart of the car" whatever that may mean.

Now we wait for US dealers to get their allocations.

macca993:

Hi Guys.

The 991 GT3 Rennlist forums have dissolved into a sh*t slinging match on almost every thread between those who think the new GT3 is crap and those who are fending it. Pretty incredible given no one has driven it.

It would be nice if we could keep this thread relevant to the original topic and post new information and articles we find on the car. 

Just a suggestion. Converstaion about MT vs PDK, Bucket seats and track warrantys gets mighty boring when every thread on every board ends up stuck on such conversations.....

Hey Macca,

i have a 991 GT3 on order as well, and had been following the other forum for pertinent information leading up to its reveal.  I don't post there - or here either - but I was shocked at just how quickly it all devolved into a flurry of arguments based primarily on theories, speculation, conjecture, and personal biases.  You and Mike in CA were two of the few people objectively (relatively, at least) defending the car.  Granted, we have our own biases for having deposits down, but I felt you guys were making rational arguments which were more often than not simply countered by accusations of brainwashing or "drinking the Kool-Aid". 

The drum beating, the same tired rhetoric and arguments; I've seen far worse than that on various fora, sure.  But the fact that almost every thread goes the same way, that people were making new threads with the same questions and arguments, all on top of the fact that no one has driven the car yet... Quite shocking, really.  This from what I had come to see as (mostly) rational adults and petrol heads.  It all seems very different from when I first came across that forum almost five years ago, when I got my first 911.  It seems so simple to me: If you don't like it, don't buy it.  If you don't like it but have never driven it, then what's the point?  Why spend your free time rehashing the same arguments ad nauseum on a forum?

To be fair, certainly there is an element of blind faith when choosing a vehicle sight unseen, but as Andreas has said, "This is a car you choose with your heart and stomach, not so much your brain."  And my heart tells me it will be an incredible car, no worse than the GT3's that have come before it.  Sadly, I missed out on the 997 GT3 like I originally wanted (no allocations were available at the time), but I don't see the 991 GT3 a compromise of any sort.  There's absolutely no guarantee that this car will be brilliant of course, but there's no guarantee that it won't be, either.

Having owned a 991 C2S for a year and four months now, I look forward to disproving the notion that the new GT3 is just a tarted up Carrera S as some people have come to see it as.  I tend to chuckle a bit when even the 991 Carrera's gets called out negatively.  16 months behind the wheel haven proven otherwise for me, but for some a 5 minute test drive or a magazine article - even reading something on a forum - is enough evidence to dismiss it.  Sadly, the same will probably be true for the GT3, but as long as we're happy behind the wheel - that's what counts, right?

Unfortunately, that is the nature of car sites recently. What is particularly aggravating is many of the critics probably had no intention to buy the car. They just like to rain on other peoples parade. 

What I also find offensive is the air of superiority they exhibit in their posts claiming buyers of the new GT3 are poseurs who do not understand race cars like "they" do. 

As for me, the more they complain the more I want the car.

The most critical observation of all has been made by RC.  The GT3 is not a race car. It was never intended as such.  It is a sport oriented street car capable of light duty track days without major modification. A poseur may take many forms. One is to pretend that owning a GT3 puts you in the same league as those who race Cup cars.  The cost of a GT3 pales in comparison to the financial committment required to maintain a Cup car through a season, let alone its purchase.  Porsche should offer the GT3 w/ a manual transmission simply because it should be offered as a matter of choice.  PDK does not  diminish the car, the brand, or the owner.  If others see it differently I am quite convinced that is their problem and not mine. By the way, when anything new concerning the GT3, or any other Porsche for that matter, becomes available, it will almost certainly appear on Rennteam first.

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

nberry:

Unfortunately, that is the nature of car sites recently. What is particularly aggravating is many of the critics probably had no intention to buy the car. They just like to rain on other peoples parade. 

What I also find offensive is the air of superiority they exhibit in their posts claiming buyers of the new GT3 are poseurs who do not understand race cars like "they" do. 

As for me, the more they complain the more I want the car.

2005 997S Blk/Blk

nberry:

Unfortunately, that is the nature of car sites recently. What is particularly aggravating is many of the critics probably had no intention to buy the car. They just like to rain on other peoples parade. 

What I also find offensive is the air of superiority they exhibit in their posts claiming buyers of the new GT3 are poseurs who do not understand race cars like "they" do. 

As for me, the more they complain the more I want the car.

 Good for you Nick!

Those that complaint about the lack of manual are like those that prefer carburetors in their cars. Those people kind of living in the past and watched technology blew past them and they are unable to catch up. I still heard people saying they like carb better because it can be easily tuned, the joy of 'tuning' carb is part of the fun, those same people also say they like manual too. Go figures.

Manual is DEAD. Move on... If you want a manual buy an older car like I did...

Whoopsy:

Those people kind of living in the past and watched technology blew past them and they are unable to catch up. I still heard people saying they like carb better because it can be easily tuned, the joy of 'tuning' carb is part of the fun, those same people also say they like manual too. Go figures.

 

People often prefer older technology at the time of new tech being released, because the old tech is plainly better (until the new tech matures). 

For instance, carbs were MUCH better on Porsches and Ferraris than the CIS fuel injection that followed.  If you look at a 911 or 308 GTB or 512BB, the early electronic fuel injection robbed lots of horsepower and throttle response.  I certainly have no fondness for the tuning - just the performance (however, my personal preference is for the Bosch Mechanical Fuel Injection which was far better than either carbs or CIS injection, last used in 1973).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Lets say Porsche heard us and will offer a 991 manual (6-speed!)  GT3 with the old 4.0 Mezger engine (new one can't fit manual visa versa) and same power (500bhp).  It will be a bit slower than the GT3 PDK with the non mezger block and not have the 9K redline but...  Which would you buy?  Price is the same... (free PDK!)

Grant:

Whoopsy:

Those people kind of living in the past and watched technology blew past them and they are unable to catch up. I still heard people saying they like carb better because it can be easily tuned, the joy of 'tuning' carb is part of the fun, those same people also say they like manual too. Go figures.

 

People often prefer older technology at the time of new tech being released, because the old tech is plainly better (until the new tech matures). 

For instance, carbs were MUCH better on Porsches and Ferraris than the CIS fuel injection that followed.  If you look at a 911 or 308 GTB or 512BB, the early electronic fuel injection robbed lots of horsepower and throttle response.  I certainly have no fondness for the tuning - just the performance (however, my personal preference is for the Bosch Mechanical Fuel Injection which was far better than either carbs or CIS injection, last used in 1973).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

There's always technology for the sake of technology, leading to technology that subtracts from the overall experience.    Porsche has, for many years, concentrated more on marketing rather than technical solutions, and hence the proliferation of special editions that merely distinguish one special edition from another through cosmetic enhancements and/or modest technical enhancements.  

There are certain artifacts of mankind that are desirable because of achievement in technical craftsmanship versus unbridled homages to the gods of technology.  This is why Swiss mechanical watches are in demand versus highly precise and accurate low cost digital watches.  This is also why some choose a Leica camera over the myriad of technologically superior digital cameras; it's for that undefinable qualities that bring the individual joy through the use of that machine through the man-machine interface.  Certain things should be special versus commonplace, and the automatic transmission, torque converter based or clutch based, feel more artificial, appliance-like and common.  An older car is always an option; however, why should I forsake current safety and emissions equipment to gain fractions of a second on a mythical race track - the GT3 is not a race car...

Leawood911:

Lets say Porsche heard us and will offer a 991 manual (6-speed!)  GT3 with the old 4.0 Mezger engine (new one can't fit manual visa versa) and same power (500bhp).  It will be a bit slower than the GT3 PDK with the non mezger block and not have the 9K redline but...  Which would you buy?  Price is the same... (free PDK!)

 

How could you not take a GT3 4.0 for $55k less than 997 version with improved (on some specs) chassis?

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

DaveC:

The GT3 is not a race car. It was never intended as such.  It is a sport oriented street car capable of light duty track days without major modification. 

Just a small note: a GT3/GT2 is not only capable of "light duty track days". These cars allow you to drive full speed (!) for a full day of track fun. Of course, you have to replace wear parts afterwards. But that's it. You have to so the same with a 100% race car. Only you can drive it longer beforehands...

MKSGR:

DaveC:

The GT3 is not a race car. It was never intended as such.  It is a sport oriented street car capable of light duty track days without major modification. 

Just a small note: a GT3/GT2 is not only capable of "light duty track days". These cars allow you to drive full speed (!) for a full day of track fun. Of course, you have to replace wear parts afterwards. But that's it. You have to so the same with a 100% race car. Only you can drive it longer beforehands...

That's true about many other cars too.  Now the question becomes how will maintenance differ for the PDK versus the manual transmission for cars that are occasionally tracked.  Don't forget that PCCB was originally seen as a better track day option than the steel brakes.  

all but given up over there at rennlist.  the spam-like emotional responses from the angry posters have gotten old.  hopefully the good folks at rennteam continue to find and post new content.

@nberry, dealer called yesterday.  allocations forthcoming shortly.  hopefully this week. . . and I'll know better whether a November euro delivery is viable.  fingers crossed.

white pics above not terribly flattering but I think they were taken with a crappy phone camera.

Nick, how would your reaction be, if the only 991 GT3 to leave the factory by mistake with a manual transmission goes to you and the dealer apologizes for this unforgivable mistake and has no option to replace the car for you, but offer you $10k discount instead or order another GT3 with PDK and lose over $50k on the first order

Nick won't even take delivery of the manual car.......................

I used to be a die-hard manual guy, thinking I am a man that's why I NEEDED a manual car. Tip in my last Turbo was a compromise to see if my wife would drive it more. She didn't and prefer SUV more.

After experiencing the 1st gen PDK in a Porsche Road Show on a track a few years ago, driving back to back a pdk car and a manual car, I am a convert, even with the retarded buttons back then. In a pdk car, my left foot stays on the dead pedal to brace myself, my right hand stays on the wheel for more control, I am more focus on the the line I take, the apex I want to hit, I am using more of the car's capability, enjoying the car more, feels like I am more involved with the car, car and I are one instead of me being a driver of the car. I really gave up next to nothing apart from the 3rd pedal, even the gear stick is still there if I ever want to use that instead of the wheel mounted controls, lightning fast gear changes are just the icing on the cake.

PDK is really a matured automatic gearbox, car makes spent decades to perfect it and this is the result. Best of both the automatic and manual, and none of the negatives associated with either. 

Whoopsy:

I used to be a die-hard manual guy, thinking I am a man that's why I NEEDED a manual car. Tip in my last Turbo was a compromise to see if my wife would drive it more. She didn't and prefer SUV more.

After experiencing the 1st gen PDK in a Porsche Road Show on a track a few years ago, driving back to back a pdk car and a manual car, I am a convert, even with the retarded buttons back then. In a pdk car, my left foot stays on the dead pedal to brace myself, my right hand stays on the wheel for more control, I am more focus on the the line I take, the apex I want to hit, I am using more of the car's capability, enjoying the car more, feels like I am more involved with the car, car and I are one instead of me being a driver of the car. I really gave up next to nothing apart from the 3rd pedal, even the gear stick is still there if I ever want to use that instead of the wheel mounted controls, lightning fast gear changes are just the icing on the cake.

PDK is really a matured automatic gearbox, car makes spent decades to perfect it and this is the result. Best of both the automatic and manual, and none of the negatives associated with either. 

Good post.

But did you miss the manual on the street?  I'm very convinced that PDK on track is the way to go for the reasons you state.  But I like 'doing the dance' on the street.  The extra modulation in day to day driving provided by the clutch provides extra entertainment value in situations where you can't even come close to using the car's lofty potential.

I guess I'm the opposite of many: with PDK I fear I would lose entertainment value on the street but look forward to the extra 'bandwidth' freed up b/t my ears when track driving.

Thoughts?

The thing with PDK is: you need enough time behind the wheel to really appreciate the gearbox, to learn its ways and you'll end up loving it to bits. It's like drinking a beer for the first time. 

frayed:

 

But did you miss the manual on the street?  I'm very convinced that PDK on track is the way to go for the reasons you state.  But I like 'doing the dance' on the street.  The extra modulation in day to day driving provided by the clutch provides extra entertainment value in situations where you can't even come close to using the car's lofty potential.

 

Hmm, no? Where I live was voted the 2nd worse traffic in North America, just behind LA. 

It will just mean a new clutch every 6 months in a manual car.