Crown

Whoopsy:

blueflame:

From Porsche Panorama May 2013 - some Preuninger-info about CL-Wheels.

Blueflame

PS - Sorry - start reading with pic2

I like the Explorer II 

Ha ha ha, I was thinking the same.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

blueflame:

From Porsche Panorama May 2013 - some Preuninger-info about CL-Wheels.

Blueflame

PS - Sorry - start reading with pic2

One that that (surprisingly) has not been commented on:

Preuninger claims that these hubs must be replaced after 30 hours, then goes on to say that's around 7,000 to 10,000 km.

Which implies that the average speeds for track use would be circa 9,000 / 30 = 300 km/h.

Now the 991 GT3 is going to be fast, but surely average speeds will be more like 100km/h (at best), so that actually the hubs will need to be changed every 3,000km....

With the front lifter is it a different front bumper and have a slightly different appearance? Does it extend out or lift or both? Not sure how it works.

BTW, 30mm is about 1.2 inches. Would that make that much of a difference?

--

Yeah it's a lot in the real world.  No diff in bumper. Whole front end lifts. 

nberry:

With the front lifter is it a different front bumper and have a slightly different appearance? Does it extend out or lift or both? Not sure how it works.

BTW, 30mm is about 1.2 inches. Would that make that much of a difference?

Porsche 911 GT3 Front Axle Lifting System...

...IMO, the front lift system should really be STANDARD EQUIPMENT on the 911 GT3...

Porsche 911 GT3 Front Axle Lifting System -- Video Link

nberry:

With the front lifter is it a different front bumper and have a slightly different appearance? Does it extend out or lift or both? Not sure how it works.

BTW, 30mm is about 1.2 inches. Would that make that much of a difference?

--

 

May not seem like much but that makes a HUGE difference.

According to the video it is almost 2 inches. Certainly need to rethink whether I get the lifter.

Rossi:

Whoopsy:

blueflame:

From Porsche Panorama May 2013 - some Preuninger-info about CL-Wheels.

Blueflame

PS - Sorry - start reading with pic2

I like the Explorer II 

Ha ha ha, I was thinking the same.

Blueflame

I have viewed the video several times. The lift of the vehicle is about 1 1/12 inches. The rubber front lip is over two inches. Therefore even if you had the lift the rubber lip will be subject to scrapping regardless if you lift or not. The front body of the car would be protected because of the rubber lip whether the car is raised or not. Eventually, the front rubber lip would have to be replaced just as I did with the 997.2TT for a couple of hundred dollars. 

So what benefit do I get from the lift? The only time the lift may help is if the angle is so steep that it would hit the front bumper. Even with a lift I would not attempt to navigate that steep of an angle. Am I missing something?

nberry:

I have viewed the video several times. The lift of the vehicle is about 1 1/12 inches. The rubber front lip is over two inches. Therefore even if you had the lift the rubber lip will be subject to scrapping regardless if you lift or not. The front body of the car would be protected because of the rubber lip whether the car is raised or not. Eventually, the front rubber lip would have to be replaced just as I did with the 997.2TT for a couple of hundred dollars. 

So what benefit do I get from the lift? The only time the lift may help is if the angle is so steep that it would hit the front bumper. Even with a lift I would not attempt to navigate that steep of an angle. Am I missing something?

If you are planning to drive a 911 GT3 on the road, the front lift is probably the most useful option you can select. 

Of course, it's less relevant if you are just track driving, but it may still impact resale value -- as most will have it. 

It may also be worth keeping in mind that the ride height on the GT3 is somewhat lower than the 997.2TT... 

If you get the front lift, you will certainly use it. If you don't get the front lift, then you'll wish you had done! 

That's a video of the front lift I madeI

The problem lies with the fact that from the c/l of the front wheels to the front edge of the splitter is 3ft.  

For most situations the lifter works just fine as advertised, not to mention it is fast. Get the lift!

trundle has it right.  Even though the 991 has less front overhang, it has a lot compared to, say, bmw. 

Great option.  My only true must have.  The rest are nice to haves.

Thanks for the valuable input. More than likely I will get it.

sidicks:

Which implies that the average speeds for track use would be circa 9,000 / 30 = 300 km/h.

Now the 991 GT3 is going to be fast, but surely average speeds will be more like 100km/h (at best), so that actually the hubs will need to be changed every 3,000km....

 

As far as I know, the Porsche safety recommendations for the street car mention the mileage, not operating hours.

Also, they are only valid for track racing, not for normal street driving. For normal street driving, the standard maintentance procedures apply. Again...the emphasis lies on racing, not some occasional track fun on the track with a driving ed class for a couple of rounds.

Speaking of people who track race their GT3 and think they got a race car (I love how direct Preuninger is...I just love him, as if he reads my mind...I am surprised that he is allowed to be that blunt and I really appreciate it): They don't have a race car and if they did, some of them should be ashamed on how they treat it. I know a couple of track addicts, some of them even driving in semi-professional series and I am sometimes surprised how much they do not care about safety. Example: They drive to the track, they lower the tire pressure for track use and then, when they drive back, they forget to raise it again. Best thing track addicts can do: Have a second set of wheels ready for them at the track, so they can exchange them with the street wheels. How many do that? Not enough drivers I'm afraid.

Like Preuninger said: The GT3 is a street car with track capabilities for occassional track fun but this is not a race car, not even close to it. So as long as people do not understand this, things can get ugly. Maybe Porsche is a little bit to blame for this, advertisement and all but I think that if people are smart enough to check the internet for cars and their capabilities, they should be smart enough to understand what they are buying. Just saying...

Again: I loved the interview with Preuninger and I have to confess that I wish all Porsche employees were that straight forward and open minded. It would help me and others a lot to understand the brand and their products much better.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

As far as I know, the Porsche safety recommendations for the street car mention the mileage, not operating hours.
 

I'm just quoting Preuninger -

"Thirty hours on the track, what's that?   It's about 7,000 - 1000 kilometers..."

:)

sidicks:

As far as I know, the Porsche safety recommendations for the street car mention the mileage, not operating hours.
 

I'm just quoting Preuninger -

"Thirty hours on the track, what's that?   It's about 7,000 - 1000 kilometers..."

:)

I think he was actually referring to the race car because I doubt that most amateur drivers would achieve driving 7000-10000 km in 30 hours on the track. Just a guess of course...

I see his point though: Track racing is not street driving or some track fun. Unfortunately some GT3 owners don't even seem to understand the difference. Maybe Porsche should publish some clear guidelines what track racing actually means, so nobody gets a bad surprise in the end. I think this may be missing right now.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Doh, we've all been so stupid: it's not abundantly clear from the interview: Preuninger and RC.... are one and the same person!

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

RC:

sidicks:

Which implies that the average speeds for track use would be circa 9,000 / 30 = 300 km/h.

Now the 991 GT3 is going to be fast, but surely average speeds will be more like 100km/h (at best), so that actually the hubs will need to be changed every 3,000km....

 

As far as I know, the Porsche safety recommendations for the street car mention the mileage, not operating hours.

Also, they are only valid for track racing, not for normal street driving. For normal street driving, the standard maintentance procedures apply. Again...the emphasis lies on racing, not some occasional track fun on the track with a driving ed class for a couple of rounds.

Speaking of people who track race their GT3 and think they got a race car (I love how direct Preuninger is...I just love him, as if he reads my mind...I am surprised that he is allowed to be that blunt and I really appreciate it): They don't have a race car and if they did, some of them should be ashamed on how they treat it. I know a couple of track addicts, some of them even driving in semi-professional series and I am sometimes surprised how much they do not care about safety. Example: They drive to the track, they lower the tire pressure for track use and then, when they drive back, they forget to raise it again. Best thing track addicts can do: Have a second set of wheels ready for them at the track, so they can exchange them with the street wheels. How many do that? Not enough drivers I'm afraid.

Like Preuninger said: The GT3 is a street car with track capabilities for occassional track fun but this is not a race car, not even close to it. So as long as people do not understand this, things can get ugly. Maybe Porsche is a little bit to blame for this, advertisement and all but I think that if people are smart enough to check the internet for cars and their capabilities, they should be smart enough to understand what they are buying. Just saying...

Again: I loved the interview with Preuninger and I have to confess that I wish all Porsche employees were that straight forward and open minded. It would help me and others a lot to understand the brand and their products much better.

I'm sorry, but this is something one should not expect from Porsche...or any other manufacturer for that matter.

And about the CL issue...the fact remains that they redesigned it...

RC:

sidicks:

As far as I know, the Porsche safety recommendations for the street car mention the mileage, not operating hours.
 

I'm just quoting Preuninger -

"Thirty hours on the track, what's that?   It's about 7,000 - 1000 kilometers..."

:)

I think he was actually referring to the race car because I doubt that most amateur drivers would achieve driving 7000-10000 km in 30 hours on the track. Just a guess of course...

I see his point though: Track racing is not street driving or some track fun. Unfortunately some GT3 owners don't even seem to understand the difference. Maybe Porsche should publish some clear guidelines what track racing actually means, so nobody gets a bad surprise in the end. I think this may be missing right now.

Given the lack of knowledge we sometimes see from dealers, do we really believe that dealers know this ??

Dear RC, I would really appreciate your view on why did Porsche not update the maintenance schedule for the 5 lug GT3 cars of the 997.1 generation, under same usage pattern?

Many thanks, w

nberry:

Faint praise from a manual shift writer. He tried very hard not to like the car and that came through loud and clear.

And then turned around at the end, so he doesn't sound like a pussy.  

I am sorry but I guess I am closer to that German engineer comparison than to the "good old American wanna drive a stick" mentality. Americans aren't alone though: There has been a discussion in German Sport Auto regarding manual transmissions and surprisingly, many people were actually saying they prefer manual. However, if they would take all these people and actually look at what they are driving, well...most don't have a clue about modern sequential shifting systems or PDK in the GT3 for that matter. However, they drool around whenever they see a 458 or an Aventador, so go figure. 

Actually, I think people should have a choice (manual or PDK for example) but on the other hand, I don't understand why Ferrari and Lamborghini drivers would accept not having a manual option but Porsche drivers won't. Doesn't make sense to me.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

wurlie:

Dear RC, I would really appreciate your view on why did Porsche not update the maintenance schedule for the 5 lug GT3 cars of the 997.1 generation, under same usage pattern?

Many thanks, w

You know the benefits of a CL system, so what is the problem?  Also don't forget that the extended CL maintenance is only necessary for track racing, not for normal street driving.

Or let me ask you something in return: Why are most race cars using CL systems? Of course we could discuss the benefits of CL on a street car like the 991 GT3 but a little bit of weight here, a little bit of weight there...also they look cool and if you track race the GT3, you have clear benefits (releasing the CL is faster than removing the five lugs).

Bottom line is: There is a clear maintenance schedule and owners should follow it. That simple.

Yes, the failures of the "old" CL system are unfortunate and Porsche should handle issues with generosity (and I think they do as far as I heard, unless of course people fight them with a lawyer...) but I think that Preuninger was very blunt about this issue in the interview he gave and I actually appreciate such honesty from a Porsche employee. Most car manufacturers would probably hide behind their press department and official declarations. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

The benefits of the CL system on 997.2 platform are not clear at all. Given the procedure to torque/ re-torque the nuts with the wheels off the ground, greasing procedure, and the maintenance of the nut itself, for an amateur track driver it is easier to use the five lugs. Furthermore, the CL assembly including the CL wheels is actually heavier than equivalent 5 lug hub assembly. I know, I have a car with the CL.

Finally, new preventative hub replacement procedure is applicable for the track driving - not racing.

Porsche is asking the 997.2 CL owners to pay for a deficient technology with no technical benefit. I understand that the factory has been generous in case of failures, however, I am not sure that the new time-out schedule is fair.

Best, w

RC:   I don't understand why Ferrari and Lamborghini drivers would accept not having a manual option but Porsche drivers won't. Doesn't make sense to me.

I know plenty of Ferrari owners who won't own anything but a manual gated shifter model (myself included).

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

RC:   I don't understand why Ferrari and Lamborghini drivers would accept not having a manual option but Porsche drivers won't. Doesn't make sense to me.

I know plenty of Ferrari owners who won't own anything but a manual gated shifter model (myself included).

Well...I do not see any modern car in your "collection", so I'm not surprised. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

wurlie:

The benefits of the CL system on 997.2 platform are not clear at all. Given the procedure to torque/ re-torque the nuts with the wheels off the ground, greasing procedure, and the maintenance of the nut itself, for an amateur track driver it is easier to use the five lugs.

Of course using the five lugs is easier for an amateur driver but people had a choice here on the 997.2 Carrera. Owners could complaint to Porsche that they failed to communicate the maintenance implications but Porsche didn't seem to have a clue at that time, which is unfortunate, I agree. 

It kind of reminds me of the early PCCB track issues. At some point owners realized that track racing the PCCB brake would be very expensive since it didn't last as long as Porsche promised, simply because track racing took a toll on the PCCB discs and the steel brake discs proved to be less expensive, even if you had to exchange them more often.

 

Furthermore, the CL assembly including the CL wheels is actually heavier than equivalent 5 lug hub assembly. I know, I have a car with the CL.

Not valid for the 991 according to Preuninger. 

Finally, new preventative hub replacement procedure is applicable for the track driving - not racing.

Well, it is actually for track racing, not track driving. I consider track driving the occasional track fun with a driver ed class or a club. Whoever does 50 or more rounds on a track on a single day is track racing, not just track driving. I agree however that there is a thin line here, so Porsche should actually communicate more precisely when the extended maintenance procedures are necessary.

Porsche is asking the 997.2 CL owners to pay for a deficient technology with no technical benefit. I understand that the factory has been generous in case of failures, however, I am not sure that the new time-out schedule is fair.

Best, w

Well, this is a different story. On the other hand, the street driving maintenance procedure stays the same, so if you do not track race your car... 

Porsche has a communication problem here, not only regarding CL but also regarding their street cars: They are not race cars, not even the GT3. So Porsche needs to avoid telling people that they can drive to work and then to the track in the same car. Actually they can but the track fun can have serious consequences, not only regarding maintenance procedures but also regarding the warranty. This is something Porsche needs to make more clear to customers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Furthermore, the CL assembly including the CL wheels is actually heavier than equivalent 5 lug hub assembly. I know, I have a car with the CL.

Not valid for the 991 according to Preuninger. 

Unfortunately, he said the same for the 997.2 CL. :(

Best, w

BjoernB:

What astonishes me is that we seem to have a discussion about PDK vs manual or as Carlos & RC points out ego-driven personal "races" where a friend might be a touch faster with PDK vs manual on a B-road - BUT my point is as stated by Lewis Hamilton is FUN ! No doubt PDK is faster than manual - I think nobody questions this and Porsche has to evolve in terms of new NBR times and 0-100/200 times that are way superior to the previous car - but AGAIN that is not the point ! I just think that unless you're making money with driving - it's about having fun with yr toy-car. some want a PDK and some a manual - what I am just not happy is that they make a choice for you - simply to please the numbercrunchers on which 98% can't replicate any given factory tracktime anyway - it's purely to say "my car can".....

Then I could argue with the words of a Caterham driver: Your car sucks. 

Bottom line is: This discussion is senseless because we all seem to want something different when we want to have fun. A friend of mine loves to drift. Drifting makes him slower. He is very good at drifting but I am always faster than him, despite him having the "better" car (997 GT2), because he got used to drifting, he always initiates a drift, he cannot scrap the limit without drifting. He has fun, I am faster (Panamera Turbo S), he is frustrated that he is slower (he is because he does some spectacular stuff with his car in curves but it slows him down) and I am happy. I'm more of the technical type of driver who tries to find the perfect line, to avoid any slip at all times (which of course includes traction issues) and this is what I enjoy. I also have lots of fun to find the perfect breaking point, which has become my specialty. Many drivers I drive with (group drives) are surprised how late I brake but this is actually something I really know well and I almost made an art out of it. This is why I love PCCB. 

Or to make it simple: To each his own. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Grant:

RC:   I don't understand why Ferrari and Lamborghini drivers would accept not having a manual option but Porsche drivers won't. Doesn't make sense to me.

I know plenty of Ferrari owners who won't own anything but a manual gated shifter model (myself included).

Well...I do not see any modern car in your "collection", so I'm not surprised. 

My Ferrari was a 550 Maranello which I think is the most modern Ferrari they ever made without an option for paddles.  I know many who would buy a brand new Ferrari if not for the lack of manual option.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

I know many who would buy a new classic VW Beetle... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)