Crown

A quick search revealed that:

2007 911 turbo goes for around $85k with $130k msrp = 65%

2007 ferrari F430 goes for around $135 original msrp $210k = almost 65%

It seems that the values are quite similar.  The only difference was the average turbo has 30k miles and the average Ferrari 15k.  

Do you worry about your 612 when parked?  Or do you make sure that wherever you go there is some sort of accommodation?  

Depreciation meant lost value, so in your terms, 35% for the Cayenne and 40% for the 612...

I try to be careful parking but seriously if you start worrying about this then maybe you shouldn't have such a car. I will not hesitate to valet the car if necessary, or park it on the streets.

I just got my second offer from my dealer, looks good so far, 36 months lease only (instead of 48 months), which gives me more options if a facelift shows up and/or if I get bored with the car.  Now I have to decide... (October delivery guaranteed). Also don't forget that the dealer takes my PTS in (which still has 36 months of the lease left), no questions asked, which is a huge bonus for me.

Right now, I have mixed feelings about the 991 Turbo S. Yes, I want this car but on the other hand, I also like the 991 GT3 a lot and it seems to be the better value right now. Still, the 991 Turbo S has some serious advantages over the GT3 and since I wouldn't track race the GT3 very often, the 991 Turbo S actually makes more sense in a region with lots of rain and snow (winter time).

Depreciation isn't really an issue for me since I lease the car. I would love to buy the car but 200k EUR is a lot of money and I would probably loose 40k EUR the moment I register the car on my name. Of course I could wait until some used cars are available but I get the feeling that this time, the 991 Turbo will actually sell better than the 991 Turbo S. I know many 997 Turbo S owners over here, on the last driving event we had three Turbo S with us (eight cars only), so go figure. Maybe I am wrong but if someone doesn't really want the PCCB and doesn't really put a lot of additional options into a 991 Turbo, the price difference between the Turbo and Turbo S would be 30-35k EUR, which is a lot of money. Since the performance difference seems to be minimal, at least on paper (0-200 kph in 10.3 seconds for the Turbo S and 10.8 seconds for the Turbo), I can imagine that some potential buyers will go for the regular Turbo instead. I know, at this price range, maybe money isn't that much of an issue but when 997 Turbo S owners talk about high fuel cost, I think that money still matters to (some of) them.

I am still a little bit offended by the thought that the 40 hp power difference between the 991 Turbo and Turbo S would be based on software only. Yes, Turbo S owners also get the "Turbo S" lettering in the speedo cluster, the logo in the PCM and the logo on the active front spoiler lip but still...is the software worth the 10k EUR or so (excluding PCCB) difference? I get it, Porsche had development cost and of course the new 991 Turbo S has a better standard equipment than the old one (not that something important was missing) but I think Porsche is standing on thin ice here, unless they know something I don't know.

A short while ago, I came off the phone with somebody who knows the 991 Turbo S quite well. He told me, so the rumors seem to be true, that 90% of the 991 Turbo/S has been built NEW from the ground up. This car has almost nothing in common with the old 997 Turbo. He also told me that the new 991 Turbo uses similar PDK improvements like the GT3 and according to him, he suspects that the 991 Turbo/S use the new GT3 engine as a basis for the bi-turbo engine. This isn't 100% sure however, he only had the chance to see some development data which seem to point into that direction.

Unfortunately he also claims that the difference between the Turbo and Turbo S is software only, so theoretically, it should be possible to use the Turbo S software to "upgrade" the Turbo if the car has PDDC and the Sport Chrono package (otherwise, the Turbo S software should be difficult to use because the Turbo S has these options standard and the software "expects" to "see" these options, I cannot explain it better). The question is: How would Porsche void the warranty on a modified Turbo (with Turbo S software) because it is actually their own software and there is no hardware difference? Could they claim additional stress? I don't think so. Interesting stuff...for lawyers.

Next week I have to decide which route I go (GT3 or Turbo S) but right now, it seems I am going the Turbo S route.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

Depreciation isn't really an issue for me since I lease the car. I would love to buy the car but 200k EUR is a lot of money and I would probably loose 40k EUR the moment I register the car on my name.

Who do you think funds the depreciation on a lease deal??!

RC:

I just got my second offer from my dealer, looks good so far, 36 months lease only (instead of 48 months), which gives me more options if a facelift shows up and/or if I get bored with the car.  Now I have to decide... (October delivery guaranteed). Also don't forget that the dealer takes my PTS in (which still has 36 months of the lease left), no questions asked, which is a huge bonus for me.

Right now, I have mixed feelings about the 991 Turbo S. Yes, I want this car but on the other hand, I also like the 991 GT3 a lot and it seems to be the better value right now. Still, the 991 Turbo S has some serious advantages over the GT3 and since I wouldn't track race the GT3 very often, the 991 Turbo S actually makes more sense in a region with lots of rain and snow (winter time).

Depreciation isn't really an issue for me since I lease the car. I would love to buy the car but 200k EUR is a lot of money and I would probably loose 40k EUR the moment I register the car on my name. Of course I could wait until some used cars are available but I get the feeling that this time, the 991 Turbo will actually sell better than the 991 Turbo S. I know many 997 Turbo S owners over here, on the last driving event we had three Turbo S with us (eight cars only), so go figure. Maybe I am wrong but if someone doesn't really want the PCCB and doesn't really put a lot of additional options into a 991 Turbo, the price difference between the Turbo and Turbo S would be 30-35k EUR, which is a lot of money. Since the performance difference seems to be minimal, at least on paper (0-200 kph in 10.3 seconds for the Turbo S and 10.8 seconds for the Turbo), I can imagine that some potential buyers will go for the regular Turbo instead. I know, at this price range, maybe money isn't that much of an issue but when 997 Turbo S owners talk about high fuel cost, I think that money still matters to (some of) them.

I am still a little bit offended by the thought that the 40 hp power difference between the 991 Turbo and Turbo S would be based on software only. Yes, Turbo S owners also get the "Turbo S" lettering in the speedo cluster, the logo in the PCM and the logo on the active front spoiler lip but still...is the software worth the 10k EUR or so (excluding PCCB) difference? I get it, Porsche had development cost and of course the new 991 Turbo S has a better standard equipment than the old one (not that something important was missing) but I think Porsche is standing on thin ice here, unless they know something I don't know.

A short while ago, I came off the phone with somebody who knows the 991 Turbo S quite well. He told me, so the rumors seem to be true, that 90% of the 991 Turbo/S has been built NEW from the ground up. This car has almost nothing in common with the old 997 Turbo. He also told me that the new 991 Turbo uses similar PDK improvements like the GT3 and according to him, he suspects that the 991 Turbo/S use the new GT3 engine as a basis for the bi-turbo engine. This isn't 100% sure however, he only had the chance to see some development data which seem to point into that direction.

Unfortunately he also claims that the difference between the Turbo and Turbo S is software only, so theoretically, it should be possible to use the Turbo S software to "upgrade" the Turbo if the car has PDDC and the Sport Chrono package (otherwise, the Turbo S software should be difficult to use because the Turbo S has these options standard and the software "expects" to "see" these options, I cannot explain it better). The question is: How would Porsche void the warranty on a modified Turbo (with Turbo S software) because it is actually their own software and there is no hardware difference? Could they claim additional stress? I don't think so. Interesting stuff...for lawyers.

Next week I have to decide which route I go (GT3 or Turbo S) but right now, it seems I am going the Turbo S route.

 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Christian, 

I think that it will be impossible to upload Turbo S software ! We have tried to do this on 997 and we didn't manage as the special Porsche device checks the VIN and offers only those software to upload that is designated for this model. So for Turbo will be only Turbo software unfortunately. After market tuning will correct this thing for sure:)

sidicks:

RC:

Depreciation isn't really an issue for me since I lease the car. I would love to buy the car but 200k EUR is a lot of money and I would probably loose 40k EUR the moment I register the car on my name.

Who do you think funds the depreciation on a lease deal??!

Yes, indeed but I keep to "play" with the "saved" 120k EUR on the stock markets and in 3-4 years, I add at least 50% to it, sometimes I double it. No real depreciation here.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

artur777:

I think that it will be impossible to upload Turbo S software ! We have tried to do this on 997 and we didn't manage as the special Porsche device checks the VIN and offers only those software to upload that is designated for this model. So for Turbo will be only Turbo software unfortunately. After market tuning will correct this thing for sure:)

You can't do this using the official PiWiS but it works in a different way. Putting our hands on the OEM 991 Turbo S software wouldn't be a problem but I worry more about the interaction with the other control units on the regular Turbo.

Since I think I am going to go with the 991 Turbo S anyway, the whole software thing doesn't really bother me anymore. 10k EUR for a better software...well...not great but at least I get the fancy Turbo S logos too.

Still not so sure about the exterior color and interior: My wife loves the Black/Carrera Red Bi-color choice but my daughter hates it. I just saw an agate grey met. car at the dealer, it looks similar to the meteor grey on my Cayenne GTS, which is OK for me. Saw a white and a red 991 Carrera S at the dealer today too, the white car had the glass sunroof (with black color in front and the back) and it looked really nice. Maybe I should choose white but it looks too "shy", too "calm" for such a powerful car, so I think I am going to stick with agate grey. Black doesn't seem to be OK on the new 991 Turbo S, it "hides" some design elements, which is a shame. Red would be interesting too but I'm not so sure that a red 991 Turbo S would be such a good idea in the current emotional environment in Germany.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I would never play with software, especially on a new top of the line car. I would either get the real thing or admit to myself that I cannot afford it.

The problem now that the S is a normal model, is that if someone pays the hefty 160.000+ EUR to get the basis car, he would still feel that he missed out. Porsche are very clever in their placement, as they have simulated the the Carrera vs. Carrera S buying decision to the Turbo models. very few buy the Carrera and similarly very few will buy the non-S Turbo.

"Form follows function"

RC:

Still not so sure about the exterior color and interior:

Have you checked the new darker colours like Anthrazitbraun and Mahogani, yet? If yes, what is your opinion?

"Form follows function"

RC:

artur777:

I think that it will be impossible to upload Turbo S software ! We have tried to do this on 997 and we didn't manage as the special Porsche device checks the VIN and offers only those software to upload that is designated for this model. So for Turbo will be only Turbo software unfortunately. After market tuning will correct this thing for sure:)

You can't do this using the official PiWiS but it works in a different way. Putting our hands on the OEM 991 Turbo S software wouldn't be a problem but I worry more about the interaction with the other control units on the regular Turbo.

Since I think I am going to go with the 991 Turbo S anyway, the whole software thing doesn't really bother me anymore. 10k EUR for a better software...well...not great but at least I get the fancy Turbo S logos too.

Still not so sure about the exterior color and interior: My wife loves the Black/Carrera Red Bi-color choice but my daughter hates it. I just saw an agate grey met. car at the dealer, it looks similar to the meteor grey on my Cayenne GTS, which is OK for me. Saw a white and a red 991 Carrera S at the dealer today too, the white car had the glass sunroof (with black color in front and the back) and it looked really nice. Maybe I should choose white but it looks too "shy", too "calm" for such a powerful car, so I think I am going to stick with agate grey. Black doesn't seem to be OK on the new 991 Turbo S, it "hides" some design elements, which is a shame. Red would be interesting too but I'm not so sure that a red 991 Turbo S would be such a good idea in the current emotional environment in Germany.

Definitely get either Blk/Blk or Red/Beige or Red/Blk-Beige.

Personally, I would be bold and get the Red.

2005 997S Blk/Blk

reginos:

I would never play with software, especially on a new top of the line car. I would either get the real thing or admit to myself that I cannot afford it.

The problem now that the S is a normal model, is that if someone pays the hefty 160.000+ EUR to get the basis car, he would still feel that he missed out. Porsche are very clever in their placement, as they have simulated the the Carrera vs. Carrera S buying decision to the Turbo models. very few buy the Carrera and similarly very few will buy the non-S Turbo.

They are very clever.  They should have done this with the 997 series also (introduced both turbo S and non-S models at the beginning).

2005 997S Blk/Blk

Christian, you need to do some self analysis.

Why do I want a new car? Certainly it is not because you have to replace your present cars. Do your present cars excite you and satisfy your emotional needs?

If it is emotional what emotion are you trying to satisfy? Is it you would want the latest and best offering from Porsche or is it something else? With your present cars you can achieve the high speeds you seem to crave. But if it is a more exciting car and challenge to drive then you should look elsewhere.

Financially what car makes sense to satisfy your emotional need. If the need to is to have the latest and best from Porsche then the S seems to be the choice though not a rational choice. 

My advice is do not put your self into hock and be car poor for the sake of having something new in the garage. It needs to knock your socks off!

reginos:

RC:

Still not so sure about the exterior color and interior:

Have you checked the new darker colours like Anthrazitbraun and Mahogani, yet? If yes, what is your opinion?

Not a brown tone fan...sorry. I've seen Anthrazitbraun at the dealer today but this really isn't my thing.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

nberry:

Christian, you need to do some self analysis.

Why do I want a new car? Certainly it is not because you have to replace your present cars. Do your present cars excite you and satisfy your emotional needs?

This is exactly the problem: The Panamera Turbo S is a wonderful Porsche but it doesn't really excite me. Furthermore, I realized that it just isn't me, like I said before, I am a SUV (family) and sports car (me, myself and I) type of guy. The steering on the Panamera Turbo S drives me crazy, this is why I will not order the "Plus" steering for the 991 Turbo S. No way.

If it is emotional what emotion are you trying to satisfy? Is it you would want the latest and best offering from Porsche or is it something else? With your present cars you can achieve the high speeds you seem to crave. But if it is a more exciting car and challenge to drive then you should look elsewhere.

I always loved the 911 Turbo and actually thought I would stick with the Turbo but when I had the 997 Turbo for almost five years and it was sitting in the garage most of the time, I didn't think it would be the right car for me. It is only now, after I got the PTS, that I realize that I still love the 911 Turbo, even if it would stay in the garage most of the time. The time I find to drive the PTS, I can drive the 991 Turbo S, so nothing lost here. The fact that I didn't pursue my 991 GT3 craving (I had some for a week or two after the official photos showed up) also proves to me that I know what I want, even if the GT3 would save me a lot of money.

Financially what car makes sense to satisfy your emotional need. If the need to is to have the latest and best from Porsche then the S seems to be the choice though not a rational choice. 

None of my cars make financially sense, then I would rather stick to my Mini Countryman.

My advice is do not put your self into hock and be car poor for the sake of having something new in the garage. It needs to knock your socks off!

 

No, the novelty factor wears off fast, I know that. The Panamera just isn't right for me, I'm not a sedan type of guy, never have been. My wife is to blame a little bit because I didn't go for the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit instead of the PTS (the Cayenne Turbo S wasn't available at that time). She gave me the wrong advice and I was too eager to listen to her, this is actually the second time she messed "car things" up for me, so no more listening to her.

I will lease the 991 Turbo S for three years, not four years, so I have an exit strategy when my Cayenne GTS lease runs out. Then I can decide if I go for another 991 Turbo S and/or a Cayenne or if I get a Cayenne Turbo S and be done with it. For me, the 991 Turbo S deal is also an opportunity to get out of the PTS lease deal three(!) years earlier, which is usually quite expensive. So this is a win/win situation for me, even if it costs extra money. In no way will I buy the 991 Turbo S. I can do better things with the money I "save". Unless of course the dealer would offer a special cash deal but I doubt it (dealers usually get some sort of bonus from the lease company to close a deal, so they are more interested in lease deals over here).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Good answer.

You have my approval to lease the S.

nberry:

Good answer.

You have my approval to lease the S.

Thank you. Now if you pay the lease too, you will earn my eternal gratitude.

P.S.: Nick, seriously...I know what I do. Can't say I knew what I did (with the PTS), my wife was too much involved ("something new"..."looks classy"..."a woman I know drives one..." ) and I almost forgot about my passion about the 911. The 997 Carrera GTS Cab was a shy start to get back on the 911 saddle but it had to fail...not enough power and the back seats were horrible too for the kids. Today I went to the Porsche dealer and had the kids sit in the rear of a 991 Coupe, just to make sure and yes, they fit perfectly and they even felt good. No more Cab for me.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

KresoF1:
Christian,
Regarding color combination... Think very carefully about your final choice.
Personally, I will probably choose GT Silver with either Black or Yachting Blue interior. Also, I will go for optipnal Sport Classic wheels in Black since I totally hate design of standard Turbo S wheels(or standard multispoke standard Turbo wheels).
Agate Grey is nice color, but is it the right color for 991 Turbo? On direct sunlight it has some brown in it that I do not like..
After some thinking I narrowed my personal favourite colors for 991 turbo:

-White
-Red
-Yellow
-Black
-Rhodium Silver
-GT Silver

RC will go for Guards Red with Black wheels 

Ron (Houston):

RC will go for Guards Red with Black wheels 

Well...I thought about that but I can't. Too flashy I'm afraid.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

991 TT is a major improvement IMO over 997TT

KresoF1:
Christian,
Regarding color combination... Think very carefully about your final choice.
Personally, I will probably choose GT Silver with either Black or Yachting Blue interior. Also, I will go for optipnal Sport Classic wheels in Black since I totally hate design of standard Turbo S wheels(or standard multispoke standard Turbo wheels).
Agate Grey is nice color, but is it the right color for 991 Turbo? On direct sunlight it has some brown in it that I do not like..
After some thinking I narrowed my personal favourite colors for 991 turbo:

-White
-Red
-Yellow
-Black
-Rhodium Silver
-GT Silver

White: Too tame.

Red: Too flashy.

Yellow: Too "I wear tattoos and a thick gold chain".

Black: Too stealth.

Rhodium Silver: Actually an interesting color but I have some sort of silver color "allergy" (my old man always had silver cars, they remind me of "old").

GT-Silver: Save as above, interesting color but I don't know. Also costs 2700 EUR extra. Nope.

So far, I love the meteor grey on my Cayenne GTS, so I will choose a similar color for the 991 Turbo. I will experiment with the interior though, Black/Carrera red Bi-color looks quite wild, so this is going to be the icing on the cake.

Still have time to change my mind, even after I order the car. Maybe I get the chance to see several color combos at Porsche, so I can make a final decision. Right now, Agate grey with Black/Carrera red Bi-color it is.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

when u guys think we can see new pictures of new colors from porsche ???? this is the most important thing we can wait for now 

Rossi:

Mithras:

Conrad2:

Currently configuring my Turbo S and thinking about selecting the new black/red interior with agate grey.  Any thoughts regarding this color combination?  Also, thinking about not getting the Burmester - would this be a mistake?  My hearing is not that great and really wonder if there would be that big a difference for me.

 

I would never get the upgraded stereo but each to their own… The stock one is fine, quite good actually and I would rather spend the thousands elsewhere.

As for that colour combo, I think it is the best. Wonderful. Look at the SLS Mercedes, there are a lot oin this dark grey with red & black. It’s striking.

Let's face it: why would you configure something like the Burmester in a Turbo? Because someone said, you should order something that is said to be one of the best HiFi-systems for one of the best cars. Perhaps this someone sits in your head only, perhaps he sits in Zuffenhausen.

Fact is, that no car-HiFi-system will ever sound as good as your HighEnd equipment at home, even more when we are talking about a sports car, with its relatively loud engine and tyre noise. But to each his own and with less than 3k the Burmester suddenly isn't out of reach for many, I guess.

I am late to the thread but I echo this thought.  when getting my 4.0 i thought it would be crazy to get it without a stereo but  now I wish I did - you just cannot hear it while driving at any speed and my engine sounds way better than any song.

Keep in mind I just bought a well optioned ($145K sticker) mint 2007 Turbo for $64K (including top dollar ($34K) for my high mileage 2005 S).  My car had 67K miles and the Turbo 47K miles.  I don't expect hardly any future depreciation on this Mezger, manual.  Additional miles will be good for it and maintenance if it keeps being used daily will be minor.  It has a new clutch, tires and wheels so it drives and runs like a new car.  Some would say it is still getting faster!  Awesome engine!  All it needs are some better suspension parts to make it a very quick car - does not need any aftermarket software or power add-ons IMHO.  Learning how to properly drive it with a sport suspension is far more important than adding power.  Anyway - just my two cents - in 6 years the NEW 991 Turbo S will be a $75K ($65K for Non S) car at best regardless of miles.  Not driving these cars (vs. Ferrari) to keep them from depreciating is big mistake.  Low mileage cars especially Turbo's have more major issues from not being driven.  The simple problem is that Porsche and everyone else will have raised the bar.  That is their job and they are good at it especially for this kind of money and profit.  The end of warranty for such an advanced car will be an even bigger problem for resale - perhaps making Porsche more likely to dominate the used car market with used car warranties.

Dark blue metallic.

Chris

2007 997.1 TT (#3)

1987 930 Slant 505

Christian, Theres nothing close to meteor gray (Which I really like) Agate gray has a brown hint under certain lights.  I bet Rhodium silver will be a hot color, finally after a few years we get a cool, pure silver with no more blue/champagne/gray hues in it.

Well, what happens when you option a Turbo to Turbo S specs? On the configurator, the S didn't have the typical long list of option choices. This makes me think it takes a cue from Audi in that their top model (the V10) already has a lot of the stuff that are considered options on the lower model (V8.)

However, a software bump is still kinda hard to swallow for $10-15K.

sulaiman:

when u guys think we can see new pictures of new colors from porsche ???? this is the most important thing we can wait for now 

 

I already made a complaint to Porsche that while their internet configurator is quite useful, the colors are not accurate at all. I suggested to use photorealistic imaging (or better: photos) to improve the configurator experience but since I do not work for Porsche, I am just a customer, I doubt they will listen.

It is a pity: So many people are interested in new Porsche models but the colors (configurator) are not accurate, the dealers usually have only small samples and dealer cars are usually not in the colors we really want to order.

At least Porsche could offer some sort of photo gallery with different colors and options (I suggested that too) but I don't understand why the don't offer it. Shouldn't be too difficult. I would even volunteer and come to Porsche to photograph the cars for free.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

galion:

Christian, Theres nothing close to meteor gray (Which I really like) Agate gray has a brown hint under certain lights.  I bet Rhodium silver will be a hot color, finally after a few years we get a cool, pure silver with no more blue/champagne/gray hues in it.

I saw Agate grey in direct sunlight and you really really have to imagine the brown tone to see it. I think that this is the closest I can get to Meteor grey. Of course I could order Meteor grey but then, I would get the car next year and not in October. 

Rhodium silver looks nice, I haven't seen it live though but like I said before, I'm not a friend of silver...or blue.  (I associate both colors with "old" , same goes to brown).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

i will help u on that .... for free as well ...

but the idea of photo galary is easy and simple yet so helpful