Crown

macca993:

Can someone tell me how I can have an avatar? I cant find the option under the "profile" menu and want a picture?

Profile settings -> MyProfile -> Edit.

Look at the lower left side.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Hi RC. Thanks so much!

nberry:

If I could get a time frame when these sport buckets seats will be available in the US I will wait to place my order. Obviously, if it's a year or two down the road then that my change my thinking including whether I order the car. I need to know what the dimensions of the sport bucket seat and the standard seat being offered. Anyone know where I can get this information?

It appears that the sport bucket seats are a must on this car.

--

 

Nick - You can find Sport Buckets to test-drive and measure in a large variety of 997 and 987 (Boxsters and Caymans) - same seat, unless the upcoming new version will be different (I certainly hope they offer a height adjustment, as the Sport Buckets sit much higher than a standard Sport seat in its lowest position and the roof of the 991 is lower than 997 without sunroof).

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant, good thought. I am going to my dealer to try them out.

I have been reviewing the standard sport plus seat in the 991GT3 and it does not appear to be much different than the optional sport buckets seats. The standard seats are adjustable in height and back tilt. The sport buckets have the seat belts through the back of the seat and may have a little more side padding for secure seating. I am not sure if height is adjustable.

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

Porsche can call it the "Rennlist US Edition" and paint it bile green.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

DaveC:

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

Porsche can call it the "Rennlist US Edition" and paint it bile green.

It's sad to think but in a few years, the only "performance" car with a manual transmission may be a Volkswagen GTI.  I guess I'll take my with the performance package and the carbon fibre roof option...

For now, the new Cayman S mit six speed will suffice.

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

+1. No-one in Europe gives a stuff for the manual apart from a very very small number of geeks. Most small/mid size cars that 'normals' drive are manual.

GT3ZZZ:

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

+1. No-one in Europe gives a stuff for the manual apart from a very very small number of geeks. Most small/mid size cars that 'normals' drive are manual.

Don't know what planet you live on but this weekend I was with 30 Porsches having fun on mountain roads that were used by the Group B rally beasts in the 80's championships and most were manuals by choice and none of them  "geeks" precisely, one of them a spanish rallye champion who no long ago won the spanish champisonhip on a GT3.

--

OK it'll need a spanish  flag as well.  ;)

nberry:

Grant, good thought. I am going to my dealer to try them out.

I have been reviewing the standard sport plus seat in the 991GT3 and it does not appear to be much different than the optional sport buckets seats. The standard seats are adjustable in height and back tilt. The sport buckets have the seat belts through the back of the seat and may have a little more side padding for secure seating. I am not sure if height is adjustable.

Sport Buckets have never been height adjustable - they provide much bettter bracing than the Sport Seats Plus (that are adjustable for height).  The Carrera GT seats (also offered in ROW on the GT3 and RS) are also not height adjustable, but sit quite a bit lower than Sport Bucket.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Carlos from Spain:

GT3ZZZ:

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

+1. No-one in Europe gives a stuff for the manual apart from a very very small number of geeks. Most small/mid size cars that 'normals' drive are manual.

Don't know what planet you live on but this weekend I was with 30 Porsches having fun on mountain roads that were used by the Group B rally beasts in the 80's championships and most were manuals by choice and none of them  "geeks" precisely, one of them a spanish rallye champion who no long ago won the spanish champisonhip on a GT3.

--

I dont think you get it. They are running a multi $$bn business not an enthusiasts club. They are out to sell new cars. You are not a commercial opportunity because there aren't enough of you. Designing a car around you guys would be complete financial suicide. Ferrari realised this already and Lambo, Mclaren and others are there too.

GT3ZZZ:

Carlos from Spain:

GT3ZZZ:

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

+1. No-one in Europe gives a stuff for the manual apart from a very very small number of geeks. Most small/mid size cars that 'normals' drive are manual.

Don't know what planet you live on but this weekend I was with 30 Porsches having fun on mountain roads that were used by the Group B rally beasts in the 80's championships and most were manuals by choice and none of them  "geeks" precisely, one of them a spanish rallye champion who no long ago won the spanish champisonhip on a GT3.

--

I dont think you get it. They are running a multi $$bn business not an enthusiasts club. They are out to sell new cars. You are not a commercial opportunity because there aren't enough of you. Designing a car around you guys would be complete financial suicide. Ferrari realised this already and Lambo, Mclaren and others are there too.

If you bother to read the whole thread then you would know that was said that a while back already... by me  

But that and saying that no one "in Europe" cares about manuals except a few "geeks" is a different story, its not "no one" and its not "geeks"  If that is how it is were you live then I'm sorry for you, but don't generalise to "Europe".

Carlos from Spain:

GT3ZZZ:

Carlos from Spain:

GT3ZZZ:

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

+1. No-one in Europe gives a stuff for the manual apart from a very very small number of geeks. Most small/mid size cars that 'normals' drive are manual.

Don't know what planet you live on but this weekend I was with 30 Porsches having fun on mountain roads that were used by the Group B rally beasts in the 80's championships and most were manuals by choice and none of them  "geeks" precisely, one of them a spanish rallye champion who no long ago won the spanish champisonhip on a GT3.

--

I dont think you get it. They are running a multi $$bn business not an enthusiasts club. They are out to sell new cars. You are not a commercial opportunity because there aren't enough of you. Designing a car around you guys would be complete financial suicide. Ferrari realised this already and Lambo, Mclaren and others are there too.

If you bother to read the whole thread then you would know that was said that a while back already... by me 

But that and saying that no one "in Europe" cares about manuals except a few "geeks" is a different story, its not "no one" and its not "geeks"  If that is how it is were you live then I'm sorry for you, but don't generalise to "Europe".

Only a few years ago, the Europeans always mocked the Americans for wanting automatic transmissions and not manuals.  My, how have the times changed.

frayed:

OK it'll need a spanish  flag as well.  ;)

  actually we hopped over to Portugal... no points off the license there for spaniards 

(hopefully I can post some pictures when I get a chance)

--

Okay - I have lived in and visited Europe many times.  When I look into small to midsized cars in Europe they are almost all manuals.  In the US a tiny percent of average cars are manuals.  Something is really backwards here.  I must believe that MOST drivers who have owned 911s owned manual cars when they could have had an automatic instead.  These are not geeks or the exception.  It used to be if you had an automatic 911 is was almost always a CAB and lost tons on resale because of it being an Auto.  times have changed.

Sad that the diff in the Gt3 requires and Autobox for hydraulic pressure - means they really never gave the manual a chance.  Questions is can they fit a sequencial manual with a real clutch for stopping and downshifting?  That is the real question - then use a racing diff.

Cheers

CGX car nut:

Carlos from Spain:

GT3ZZZ:

Carlos from Spain:

GT3ZZZ:

frayed:

I liked his answers.  Not that I had serious reservations about the new metal, but the manual issue integrated with the ediff makes sense.

So if the manual devotees hate the new car and there is a notable sales opportunity for a slower GT3 with a manual and an inferior diff, then it sounds like porsche will build it.

Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems this would be primarily a US spec car as the Europeans and perhas all ROW are more comfortable with the concept of PDK.  Maybe they can build the car with a special logo or something with the American flag, or something more clever. . . can't think right now.

+1. No-one in Europe gives a stuff for the manual apart from a very very small number of geeks. Most small/mid size cars that 'normals' drive are manual.

Don't know what planet you live on but this weekend I was with 30 Porsches having fun on mountain roads that were used by the Group B rally beasts in the 80's championships and most were manuals by choice and none of them  "geeks" precisely, one of them a spanish rallye champion who no long ago won the spanish champisonhip on a GT3.

--

I dont think you get it. They are running a multi $$bn business not an enthusiasts club. They are out to sell new cars. You are not a commercial opportunity because there aren't enough of you. Designing a car around you guys would be complete financial suicide. Ferrari realised this already and Lambo, Mclaren and others are there too.

If you bother to read the whole thread then you would know that was said that a while back already... by me 

But that and saying that no one "in Europe" cares about manuals except a few "geeks" is a different story, its not "no one" and its not "geeks"  If that is how it is were you live then I'm sorry for you, but don't generalise to "Europe".

Only a few years ago, the Europeans always mocked the Americans for wanting automatic transmissions and not manuals.  My, how have the times changed.

Wrong perception, Europeans do like manuals a lot.

J.Seven

+1 We love our manuals here on the continent, 99% of the drivers know how to use a stick shift.

Wasn't the reason for so many manual in European cars in the past because the cost of fuel? At that time it was more economical to run a car using a manual. Today I don't believe that is the case.

If Europeans are still involved with the manual, why are so many "performance" cars switching to automatics?  The racer's edge of the DCT only goes so far, as an explanation.

I believe European sports car buyers have been much quicker to take up emerging technologies. The US makes up almost 50% of the world sports car/ luxury European market. If 2% of Amercians decide they want manual only thats equivalent to probably 20% of European buyers on a market share/sales vs population basis. Weve seen this before with the BMW M5. This car isnt sold in manual anywhere else outside of the USA. I believe BMW have decided to discontinue the manual altogether now. A recent review by EVO suggests that the car was designed for the automtic transmission and looses something as a manual because there are holes in the rev range manual gears cannot take up.

Porsche look like they have decided to remove manual from the menu for all future variants of their 911. The 991 TT and TTS along with the GT3 are evidence of this policy. I believe the 991 GT2 will also sport PDK (probably the variant in the GT3). Furthermore I think its still more likely than not that the 991 GT3 RS will be PDK-S only.  I imagine their product plan will show the second generation 991 base models also abandon the manual option so the whole range will become PDK only. The 911 has been slowly moving to the "GT tourer" space and the Cayman is taking up the gap as the "purist sports car" (Cayman R, Speedster etc).

MT demand in the USA may arrest this development, however if Porsche choose to release US only MT option in generation 2 GT3/RS & 991.2 TT and GT2 you may well be very dissapointed. These cars have been developed as a system and the development budget has to date been 99% directed to PDK and systems that integrate with this. PDK only is a big change in the GT3/TT architecture as it means the engine differential, ABS brakes, TC, PSAM, PTV, Dynamic engine mounts etc are now all working as a system using sensors and ECU's to monitor each other functions for optimum effect. Once you take the PDK out of teh equation you are left with some systems that no longer integrate. The car cannot guess if you will move heel and toe from 5th to 3rd on the back straight while braking hard. It cant easily prepare the other systems for such a "human logic" choice without changes to the system architecture.

I think we need to wait for the 991 GT3 with PDK-S to be launched at the press release in September and get a proper work out on track and road before we draw conclusions. It will take a huge global lobby to get Porsche to re design their product strategy to focus their product around MT again for these sports models and if they dont and just launch a MT for USA market you can be confident it will be a poor cousin and in the end die from lack of uptake...

" engine differential, ABS brakes, TC, PSAM, PTV, Dynamic engine mounts etc are now all working as a system using sensors and ECU's to monitor each other functions for optimum effect" - digital driving, while quicker and fool-proof is not what I am looking for in a sports car.  You are correct that PDK is now required for it all to work as a system - what a shame.  Resistance is futile.

Leawood911:

Okay - I have lived in and visited Europe many times.  When I look into small to midsized cars in Europe they are almost all manuals.  In the US a tiny percent of average cars are manuals.  

It is difficult to find good automatics on small cars (Ford Fiesta, Toyota Yaris etc.) and medium cars (BMW 1, Ford Focus etc) driven in Europe. Therefore, buyers prefer the manual versions. Automatics in this class are generally slow changing and heavy and they are best avoided.

Some manufacturers like VW Group offer very good DCTs even on their small models (1200,1400 cc) but because the extra cost is a large % of the starting price, buyers in this class who typically have tight budgets also prefer the manual version.

So, many people drive manual by necessity and not by choice.

As to Porsche, those who knock the PDK are those who have not used it enough so  as to learn it. There is nothing useful a manual can do that cannot be replicated on the PDK. The only incentive for manual is to exercise the muscles of your left leg.

--

"Form follows function"

Ill go further and say almost everyone who has commented negatively on PDK has even tried it. I havent and I have ordered the 991 GT3 with PDK-S! Most of us may have tried the old tiptronic and had questionable experiences (I did). 

I have three friends who have bought 991S. One bought manual and after trying another friends PDK version regrets his decision. He also owns, 2009 GT9, 2006 997TT manual and Cayman S manual

Few of us have lived with the latest PDK box and nine of us have driven a car with the new PDK as the 991 GT3 has. Therefore there arent that may of us that are qualified to comment. Im a hard core air cooled guy from way back (964RS, 993RS etc) the only water cooled car Ive owned is 996.1 GT3. Im looking forward to owning a 991 GT3 and Im sure Ill know soon enough if that will be the last new or modern Porsche 911 I will every own. I have a sneaky suspicion that it will be a blast (I do have a little insider knowledge on the car which I guess may be unfair). If its not it will get sold before they finish the second production run in late 2014 and the proceeds will go to another old skool air cooled to keep my 6 speed 993 hot rid company.

If you dont like the PDK GT3, easy. Buy a 6GT3 or 7GT3 or better still a 993RS!

spudgun:

+1 We love our manuals here on the continent, 99% of the drivers know how to use a stick shift.

+1 Completely agree (in my case auto for city driving and manual for weekend fun)

I will be looking forward, however, to test drive the PDK GT3. PDK on the 997 and 991 does not do it for me amazing speed but less (subjective) fun.
 

--

911 Club Coupe, 993 4S Riviera Blau, 12' Audi S4 Avant

spudgun:

+1 We love our manuals here on the continent, 99% of the drivers know how to use a stick shift.

But now loads of  the young crowd are fascinated by PDK  . They want now their GTI, S3, Cupra etc... to have DSG.

I don't know how many times, when someone asks me if my car has PDK, and I answer yes, their eyes light up in excitement   ( and mine in sadness when I see that is what makes them so excited  )   and they tell me how fantastic it must be to just flip those paddles like in a F1 car .

For the ' non sports car freaks ' and younger people  , PDK is so ' cool ' ......

I think for general public , a manual is outdated. There parents drove that, their gran mother drove that, they have seen that for the last 50 years, and now there is something that is closer to what they are used to ( video games ? Instant gratification ? Technology ? )

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

nobody doubts that PDK is faster and now since connected to diff etc probably a must for Porsche - my point is that after 15-20 min paddling back and forth it becomes boring - yes faster on track and whatever you can think of - but booooring..... - I drive my friends 458 frequently and I always love the first 20 mins of it's "kalashnikov" gearchanges - but I am always happy to change back. Again if you make money with race-driving you need the fastest - if not you don't..

Gnil:

spudgun:

+1 We love our manuals here on the continent, 99% of the drivers know how to use a stick shift.

But now loads of  the young crowd are fascinated by PDK  . They want now their GTI, S3, Cupra etc... to have DSG.

I don't know how many times, when someone asks me if my car has PDK, and I answer yes, their eyes light up in excitement   ( and mine in sadness when I see that is what makes them so excited  )   and they tell me how fantastic it must be to just flip those paddles like in a F1 car .

For the ' non sports car freaks ' and younger people  , PDK is so ' cool ' ......

I think for general public , a manual is outdated. There parents drove that, their gran mother drove that, they have seen that for the last 50 years, and now there is something that is closer to what they are used to ( video games ? Instant gratification ? Technology ? )

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

True. I blame the game consoles, future generation will be used to change gear with paddles on their playstation steering wheels. In my day we just used the keyboard.

spudgun:

Gnil:

spudgun:

+1 We love our manuals here on the continent, 99% of the drivers know how to use a stick shift.

But now loads of  the young crowd are fascinated by PDK  . They want now their GTI, S3, Cupra etc... to have DSG.

I don't know how many times, when someone asks me if my car has PDK, and I answer yes, their eyes light up in excitement   ( and mine in sadness when I see that is what makes them so excited  )   and they tell me how fantastic it must be to just flip those paddles like in a F1 car .

For the ' non sports car freaks ' and younger people  , PDK is so ' cool ' ......

I think for general public , a manual is outdated. There parents drove that, their gran mother drove that, they have seen that for the last 50 years, and now there is something that is closer to what they are used to ( video games ? Instant gratification ? Technology ? )

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

True. I blame the game consoles, future generation will be used to change gear with paddles on their playstation steering wheels. In my day we just used the keyboard.

 

I don't think it is only young people who like the new gearboxes.

In the past someone drove the torque converter auto because either he/she didn't know how to drive manual or this person was too lazy or old to be troubled with the procedure.

Nowadays with the PDK type boxes people drive them because they give more possibilities with modern electronics (in normal traffic, spirited road driving or track), they are faster and  in doing so they are also more convenient and more economical.

Nowadays, even some good torque converter autos (see BMW) are a better choice than manual.

What I never liked are the automated manuals from the lowest level on the Smart, VW Up or Fiesta to the top BMW SMG or Ferrari F1.

"Form follows function"

nberry:

Wasn't the reason for so many manual in European cars in the past because the cost of fuel? At that time it was more economical to run a car using a manual. Today I don't believe that is the case.

Yes. Automatic transmissions always had the reputation of eating too much fuel and not being sporty. I guess everyone knows by now that things have changed a lot compared to the old auto trannies back in the days. 

Actually, I know many drivers who went for manual on regular cars because of option cost for the auto tranny, not because of fuel consumption or not being sporty enough. Times have changed but money is still an issue.

In the US, many drivers carry a lot of pride in driving stick because not everybody can do that but in Europe, every idiot   can drive stick, so driving manual is a preference but not really something someone would be proud of.

In my opinion, driving manual has become a personal preference, like choosing a certain rim design or a leather color. The car needs to be fun and if some people think it is fun by driving stick, so be it. I have no problem with that.

Unfortunately car manufacturers have to look out for their typical customers and truth is, most sports cars aren't available with manual anymore. Why choose manual if you can actually have the best from both worlds (manual and auto in one transmission)?

Still: There are rumors that Porsche could offer an optional manual gearbox for the next 991 GT3 RS, apparently they are currently assessing the feedback from the 991 GT3 PDK presentation.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4