Crown

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

. If you liked manual shifting as I do for example, you would be shifting more in manual gearboxes than in PDK for example.

Carlos, actually you end up shifting more within PDK then with manual ( when doing spirited driving in manual ) . You do it in places you would never do it with manual, as the gearbox allows you to do it ( middle of curb for example ) + as the shifts are so fast , you can go up, or down , one gear just for a few meters, were you could not do it with manual as it takes too much time, and so not allowing you these quick up one gear down one ( for example between two very close narrow corners )  This is a fun part of the PDK , and does come more with time. But it is probably not more efficient, just fun 

In that scenario yes, but that was not what I was referring to, in everyday driving overall I shift more with the manual because it's fun, I don't try to skip gears to avoid shifting like whoopsy mentioned, in the PDK however it gets so uninvolving compared to the manual that I while I start using it in manual mode and playing with it initially, at the end of the day I would just keep it in D and let it do all the shifting because I would get bored, yet on the manual it's the opposite, I look forward for the downshifts into the corner, and the upshifts coming out and the challenge it offers compared to flipping a paddle.

TEE:

Christian, Christian, what would we do without your eternal "car search"  I admire the energy you put into it, the desire to stick to your sometimes contradictory support arguments, and the ever recurring promise not to buy a new car the next 4-5 years once the purchase is made

The Panamera Turbo S was really meant to stay with us for 4 years but I guess I should have remembered my E55 AMG experience before ordering the Panamera. A sedan...this just isn't me. I also didn't realize how flashy the Panamera is. Nobody really cares about a Cayenne anymore (there are really many Cayenne in my hometown) but you barely see a Panamera on the street. Not suitable as the daily driver and drive to work car I imagined at some point.   The most annoying thing however is the...steering. I really have the feeling that I am driving a Rolls here. Only when I go through twists and turns, the PTS really feels nimble but otherwise, it feels just too comfortable, not sporty at all. I should have done a proper testdrive before ordering this car. Sad but true. Wonderful Porsche but not for me.  

But also your honest to admit mistakes

Well...this is what this forum is for...discussing choices...and mistakes. 

In your place, I would go for the 997 Turbo S - that is the "best value for money" right now. The GT3 you would never really use and have a garage queen and the new Turbo irrespective whether S or not is simply a "cash destroyer"  without delivering that much more "exprience".

I know that the 997 Turbo S would be a good offer but I do not want to buy one. I need to put around 130k EUR on the table for a "good" car from a dealer with warranty, a GT3 for example would cost me 50k EUR (initial payment for the lease) and some "insignificant" monthly payments. The 991 Turbo S would probably cost more initial payment but not even close to 130k EUR. Leasing a used 997 Turbo S is practically impossible because it is way too expensive. My dealer has a used 997 Turbo S but with financing only (no lease possible), initial payment would be 30k EUR and monthly payments (for 36 months) are close to 2900 EUR each. Ouch, ouch and again...ouch. No way, this is insane.

I do not like to keep my cars longer than five years since I can only afford one very good car at a time. So leasing them is the only way to be able to drive such an expensive car without having to care about the remaining value after four or five years (mileage lease).

Whatever choice you make and advice you need we are her for you - enjoy all in good health  

Well...I just received an offer from my dealer and while I'm not very excited about it, I think I can actually start bargaining with him because his offer isn't as bad as expected (considering the fact that he takes my Panamera Turbo S in without any "penalty" after only 15 months instead of 48 months). 

I think I am going for the 991 Turbo S and not the GT3 but I also have to admit that this is a difficult decision for me.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Christian, you need a car for YOURSELF which you can enjoy ALONE. It would be your sanctuary. You have the GTS for the family and your wife has her own car. Get the car which would give YOU the most entertainment which I have no doubt will be the GT3. 

Right Nick...you are right too.But sometimes is difficult to take right decisions.

997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo

nberry:

Christian, you need a car for YOURSELF which you can enjoy ALONE. It would be your sanctuary. You have the GTS for the family and your wife has her own car. Get the car which would give YOU the most entertainment which I have no doubt will be the GT3. 

Problem is I think that he is not in the U.S.were he could even drive it to work, in Germany he cannot drive such s car to work which is when he is most alone in the car, and in the weekends he could not use it much because he wants to be with the family and a GT3 only has two seats (it would be even worse than the 997GTS Cab he had),  so it would end up as a garage queen in the end. The Turbo S on the other hand would be more usable and as tempting as the GT3 is, a better choice in the long run IMO.

--

Add the Turbo's AWD and production tyres (instead of Cup) which are important for a daily car in the climate of central Europe.

"Form follows function"

I thought the GTS was daily use. Driving a $200,000 car to work would not be wise for many reasons which I am sure Christian knows and understands.

I do not know Christian personally but based on his posts he love to drive a spirited car. The TTS will be fast but nowhere nimble and fun as the GT3. When you consider the cost of the GT3 to the S no contest.

Christian works hard so why should he not have something he can use in a very satisfying way for HIMSELF. It may be only a few hours on a weekend or during the week but the time spent in those hours will make him a better husband and family man because he has scratched that itch.

Carlos from Spain:

Seems like you never really enjoyed manual shifting in the first place, and the way you describe it is as an effort, a lesser evil when auto boxes were so bad until double clutch came along. You were destined for auto boxes regardless. If you liked manual shifting as I do for example, you would be shifting more in manual gearboxes than in PDK for example.

Quite spot on analysis. Before PDK I felt like manual boxes were the lesser evil of the 2 lone choices. Autos back then were too stupid so I had no choice but to choice manual just so I can define what gear I want. Technology progress have changed my mind, the PDK are so smart now they are in the correct gear that I want 95% of the time, and for those 5% the paddles is just right there next to the fingertips. Pretty much I get the best of both worlds, auto when I want and manual gear selections when I want that too, minus the missed shifts that happens once in a while. 

RC:

Well...I just received an offer from my dealer and while I'm not very excited about it, I think I can actually start bargaining with him because his offer isn't as bad as expected (considering the fact that he takes my Panamera Turbo S in without any "penalty" after only 15 months instead of 48 months). 

Well,

history seems to repeat itself. Just for the sake of completeness I´d like to tell you that you returned your 997 Turbo since you weren´t able to use it sufficiently. I would´ve also been surprised if you´d have gone for the 997 Turbo (the fact that there is something better around the corner eliminates this option) or the 991 GT3 (the above mentioned drawbacks but the fact that there is something faster around the corner eliminates that option).

Anyways, great that you share your thoughs with us! 

Playing with the configurator, Porsche has an option for clear rear light lens. They are a $610 option. I really like the look of them on a white exterior which I am getting. Has anyone seen these in person and have thoughts?

Should be like those on the 997, the red color on the rear lens are replaced with clear plastics with red leds underneath?

Yes. They look neat using the configurator. I am getting the LED's for the front. Giving the car a modern hip look as I drive to Starbucks.

I have seen these in flesh. Didn't like it. The rear looks like the lights are missing...

SportCarGroup:

I have seen these in flesh. Didn't like it. The rear looks like the lights are missing...

Interesting observation. Did you see them on a white car?

BTW, keeping your head down? Getting crazy in the Middle East. Something got to give to end this madness.

The few white 997 in white with clear lights didn't look particular good to me also. At least the tail lights are bigger so you do see them, not sure on a 991 with only a strip of lighting in clear lens. 

The clear lights are plug and play, so if you didn't check that option you could always add it after the fact.

FWIW - RC has been infected by the Twin Turbo bug a long time ago.  Once you go Turbo you never go back - I know, I was recently infected!  He even bought a Sedan with Twin Turbos and wishes the GTS had them!  I would bet the farm RC will get the 991 Turbo and not the GT3 991.  End of story.  He knows it!  Keep this post - It will happend!

Sorry to hear about the poor financing options for the used 997 Turbo in Europe.  Mine was of course not so new or warrantied BUT nice and 95% of the New Turbo experience.  Also I easily got 72 months financing at less than 2% from eBay lender 'RoadLoans.com' (backed by Santander - go Ferrari!) for the difference between my 05 997S and the 07 997 Turbo (30K difference) - costs $440 US per month.  Insurance increased by $200 per year to almost $900.  This is the first time I have had a Porsche payment of any type, not a bad record given I have owned them since age 15.  The interest rate is so cheap I might just keep making payments rather than bother to run to the bank and pay it off.  Going through the eBay lender in the first place gave me additional buyer protection.

Back on Topic - I think the styling of the new GT3 is better than the 991 Turbo - that said I still hate the center consoles in both and the electronice parking brake and the PDK only.

Eventually I will get the 991 Turbo when I trade my current one - when it is affordable and well used, cause 911 Porsches are the car I drive.  Everything else is just a box with wheels.

My first Porsche at age 15 - followed by a '77 911S (yellow!), an 82 911 Euro model (white), an 84 911 Targa (white), an 84 911 Coupe (bronze - color to match), a '99 996 Coupe (Black), a 05 997S (Black),and now my 07 Turbo (Black), at age 49.  Been a fun ride.

Whoopsy:

Carlos from Spain:

Seems like you never really enjoyed manual shifting in the first place, and the way you describe it is as an effort, a lesser evil when auto boxes were so bad until double clutch came along. You were destined for auto boxes regardless. If you liked manual shifting as I do for example, you would be shifting more in manual gearboxes than in PDK for example.

 

Quite spot on analysis. Before PDK I felt like manual boxes were the lesser evil of the 2 lone choices. Autos back then were too stupid so I had no choice but to choice manual just so I can define what gear I want. Technology progress have changed my mind, the PDK are so smart now they are in the correct gear that I want 95% of the time, and for those 5% the paddles is just right there next to the fingertips. Pretty much I get the best of both worlds, auto when I want and manual gear selections when I want that too, minus the missed shifts that happens once in a while. 

It is quite amazing how the PDK's brain can choose 95% of the time the gear you wanted at every moment, to the extreme that my own impression is that I would be faster around a track with the PDK on "D" than on manual mode, becasue 100% of the concentration went to the wheel and throttle/brake and wasn't slowed by wrong gears being selected either. I don't know about anybody else but that is the impression I got with me behind the wheel.

Whoopsy:

The few white 997 in white with clear lights didn't look particular good to me also. At least the tail lights are bigger so you do see them, not sure on a 991 with only a strip of lighting in clear lens. 

The clear lights are plug and play, so if you didn't check that option you could always add it after the fact.

Good points!

Carlos from Spain:

It is quite amazing how the PDK's brain can choose 95% of the time the gear you wanted at every moment, to the extreme that my own impression is that I would be faster around a track with the PDK on "D" than on manual mode, becasue 100% of the concentration went to the wheel and throttle/brake and wasn't slowed by wrong gears being selected either. I don't know about anybody else but that is the impression I got with me behind the wheel.

Porsche may have come toe same conclusion :)

Modern electronics at it's best. Longitudinal and lateral sensors combine with steering wheel angle input and throttle and brake sensors. The car's brain pretty much can tell what a driver is going to do before the driver itself. Funny how that works. 

Without clutch pedal the left leg can brace the body on the dead pedal and makes the driver more secure or use it to left foot brake. And with pedals the 2 hands are in the proper spot on the wheel all the time. Amazing how a proper gearbox can kill numerous birds with one stone.

Carlos from Spain

 

It is quite amazing how the PDK's brain can choose 95% of the time the gear you wanted at every moment, to the extreme that my own impression is that I would be faster around a track with the PDK on "D" than on manual mode, becasue 100% of the concentration went to the wheel and throttle/brake and wasn't slowed by wrong gears being selected either. I don't know about anybody else but that is the impression I got with me behind the wheel.

Carlos, I made exactly the same experience after hitting the track with a PDK car (981S) for the first time ever. During the very first laps I was in manual mode all the time, because as an old school GT3 driver I thought it would be a sacrilege to do the 'Ring in Auto mode  It took me only a few laps to find out that the PDK in Sport+ Auto mode would do a better job than me playing with the gears  Also if I recall correctly the PDK software is kind of a learning software, hence after 2 laps or so on the (long) 'Ring shift points became even more efficient. The only thing the software would not know is that you can commence a 'Ring lap  with perfect sunny weather at Döttinger Höhe and then get caught by rainy weather at Breidscheid (or vice versa)  With the PSE and the aggressive downshifts photographers at the Karussell turn their heads in shock because they may think a VLN racecar has find it's way into a Touristenfahrten session 

public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

nberry:

Whoopsy:

The few white 997 in white with clear lights didn't look particular good to me also. At least the tail lights are bigger so you do see them, not sure on a 991 with only a strip of lighting in clear lens. 

The clear lights are plug and play, so if you didn't check that option you could always add it after the fact.

Good points!

Fully agree 

@ Nick: stay clear of the clear lights 

public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

Porsche-Jeck:

Carlos, I made exactly the same experience after hitting the track with a PDK car (981S) for the first time ever. During the very first laps I was in manual mode all the time, because as an old school GT3 driver I thought it would be a sacrilege to do the 'Ring in Auto mode  It took me only a few laps to find out that the PDK in Sport+ Auto mode would do a better job than me playing with the gears  

You have much more track experience than I do, so if you also got that impresion, that makes me feel better about it then   

If I get a PDK I will make a bumper sticker that says "I'm faster in Auto Mode and proud" 

Carlos from Spain:

If I get a PDK I will make a bumper sticker that says "I'm faster in Auto Mode and proud" 

Good one 

public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

Carlos from Spain:

Porsche-Jeck:

Carlos, I made exactly the same experience after hitting the track with a PDK car (981S) for the first time ever. During the very first laps I was in manual mode all the time, because as an old school GT3 driver I thought it would be a sacrilege to do the 'Ring in Auto mode  It took me only a few laps to find out that the PDK in Sport+ Auto mode would do a better job than me playing with the gears 

 

You have much more track experience than I do, so if you also got that impresion, that makes me feel better about it then   

If I get a PDK I will make a bumper sticker that says "I'm faster in Auto Mode and proud" 

I confirm that too . But... I do override PDK quite a bit on track, as even if not perfect, I like to choose my own gears , sometimes I want to be lower in the revs then what PDK chooses, or higher as I know I want to be in the max HP when I exit a corner  going uphill for example.

Only when I REALY need to be fast do I let PDK take control again . One has to be a bit rebellious , no ? 

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

It is called Adaptive PDK. The car learns how you drive and shift and soon the software adapts to your style of driving.

nberry:

It is called Adaptive PDK. The car learns how you drive and shift and soon the software adapts to your style of driving.

An adaptive manual transmission learns one's driving style even quicker.

So-called adaptive functions in automobile applications are nothing new. Adaptive or learning ECUs and Tiptronic or automatic transmissions were available on cars well over a decade ago.  

CGX car nut:

An adaptive manual transmission learns one's driving style even quicker.

So-called adaptive functions in automobile applications are nothing new. Adaptive or learning ECUs and Tiptronic or automatic transmissions were available on cars well over a decade ago.  

And the 'adaptive' tip 10 yrs ago in the 996 were crap. Instead of it adapting to my style, it wants me to adapt to it's style. It's insistence on taking right turns in city driving in 3rd gear drives me nuts. 

CGX car nut:

nberry:

It is called Adaptive PDK. The car learns how you drive and shift and soon the software adapts to your style of driving.

An adaptive manual transmission learns one's driving style even quicker.

So-called adaptive functions in automobile applications are nothing new. Adaptive or learning ECUs and Tiptronic or automatic transmissions were available on cars well over a decade ago.  

Did not say it was new although the PDK S has enhancements in predicting gear shifts which enables it to maintain high rev's for better performance and track time. 

BTW, if you miss gear shifts or miss rev's (who doesn't) your adaptive manual transmission does not learn well.

nberry:

SportCarGroup:

I have seen these in flesh. Didn't like it. The rear looks like the lights are missing...

Interesting observation. Did you see them on a white car?

BTW, keeping your head down? Getting crazy in the Middle East. Something got to give to end this madness.

It was GT Silver 991 CS.

Got used to it, it's already usual thing (Middle East Madness).