GTom:

Im not dreaming am I? This really doesnt look nice?

Sorry! It's real! I can't believe this ugly backside looks like a .....Hmmm?   Okay, i don't see so joke car before. No emotion, no power but high price!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding design on the new 991 Turbo & Turbo S, have a close look at the now disfigured tachometer, then compare it with those of the Panamera and Cayenne turbos.  Repeat the same exercise regarding the tail pipes of the 991 Turbo & Turbo S vs those of Panamera and Cayenne Turbo.

What can you spot?

This is where Porsche is now getting its inspiration for the sports cars.  What do they think they are doing?  Do they need to remind us, on sport cars, of the fact that they now mainly sell Cayennes and Pananeras?  What do they think they are doing in recycling the tachometer from the Cayenne and Pananera?  On a 911 Turbo!

Also, everybody noticed that the rising center console on the 991/981 was picked up from the Panamera (probably tons of ink in the press was wasted on the laudation of this center console).  What about the useless, disgraceful and ostentatious “Porsche” inscription added to the model designation at the tail of the 991/981?  Same thing.  Go and check for yourself if you do not believe me.  How can Porsche, including their head of design, say that a 911 always looks like a 911 (50 years now), but feel the need to add “Porsche” at the tail?  Is the make of a 911 not obvious?  I can understand that Porsche felt a little unsecure when the Panamera was released to a point of adding the name of the make at the tail of the cars, borrowing from the image of the sports cars at the same time (it is free, available, and cannot hurt, right?) ...  but on a 911!

I find this kind of homogenization of the sports cars design with that of the Cayenne and Panamera outrageous, really demeaning for the sports cars.

It is sad enough to see that Porsche is now selling fewer sports cars than it used to do in the 1980’s – 1990’s (check the sale volumes, not just the proportion of the sports cars vs the others), to have become the manufacturer of Cayennes and Panameras predominantly.  The fact that our favorite brand is now moving one step further and dares to align the design of the 991/981 to that of the best sellers is really adding insult to injury.

I have the sad premonition that Porsche is on its way to kill its sport cars segment.

It has no excuses for the declining sale volumes of its sport cars.  The market on this segment is not declining.  Check the progression of sale volumes of Ferrari during the last two decades and then compare it to the sale volumes of 911 over the same period.  Want to double-check?  Add Lamborghini in the equation.   And there are new entrants (McLaren for example).

May be Porsche has ventured a little too far selling underpowered and overpriced sports cars.

That they announced their return to Le Mans shows that they understood it was about time to get back to work … as all Porsche customers know that there is no free lunch with them.

What do you think? 

PBS2010

 

It is sad enough to see that Porsche is now selling fewer sports cars than it used to do in the 1980’s – 1990’s (check the sale volumes, not just the proportion of the sports cars vs the others), to have become the manufacturer of Cayennes and Panameras predominantly.  

You are not right on this because prior to the 996, production and sales were at a few hundred cars per year. If I remember well in 1991 or 1992 production of all the then current models was just 3.000.

Production of 996 and 997 went up to some 15.000-20.000 units per year. If we also count the Boxster and Cayman ranges sportscar production is 10 times what it was in the period you mention. Sportscars may be declining as a % of total Porsxhe sales but in absolute numbers they are very high both historically and also by industry standards. Some even say that Porsche produce too many 911s for their exclusivity.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

PBS2010

 

It is sad enough to see that Porsche is now selling fewer sports cars than it used to do in the 1980’s – 1990’s (check the sale volumes, not just the proportion of the sports cars vs the others), to have become the manufacturer of Cayennes and Panameras predominantly.  

You are not right on this because prior to the 996, production and sales were at a few hundred cars per year. If I remember well in 1991 or 1992 production of all the then current models was just 3.000.

Production of 996 and 997 went up to some 15.000-20.000 units per year. If we also count the Boxster and Cayman ranges sportscar production is 10 times what it was in the period you mention. Sportscars may be declining as a % of total Porsxhe sales but in absolute numbers they are very high both historically and also by industry standards. Some even say that Porsche produce too many 911s for their exclusivity.

reginos -

As dedicated a Porsche fan as I am, I think Porsche's exclusivity went out the window a long time ago... especially in my part of the world. I work at a university and all you need to do is walk through our parking lot; on Thursday, there were six Cayennes, both old and new, in the same row of parking spaces. On another day earlier in the week, I saw three 991s and four Panameras parked inside, two other Panameras entering the parking lot as I was turning out and a 991 parked on the street [I left Cayennes out of this count; too many to bother]. Bear in mind that these cars are all driven by under-25-year-olds and are all within a fifteen-meter radius of one another. 

The 996 and 997 may have been catalysts in the expansion of Porsche sales but there is no denying what further growth came about with the 987/987C lines, the Cayenne and eventually, the Panamera. These are all tremendous cars by their own merits but, by venturing deeper into niches and market segments, it can be argued that Porsche sold their exclusivity out in pursuit of capital as any business does. Exclusivity may be a draw to the brand, but numbers are what ultimately seal the deal. This will be further exacerbated by the forthcoming Macan and by VW AG now that Porsche's been integrated into the VW fold - predicted figures of over 200000 vehicle sales a year will do nothing to maintain the exclusivity you speak of. I don't doubt for a second that these cars will be fantastic to drive and will det benchmarks in their respective segments, but that doesn't change the fact that we'll probably see them on every other corner.

rulesdontapply

2008 Porsche Boxster S PDE2
2012 Porsche Cayenne S

You are right about the loss of exclusivity. If you think about it that is how many cars BMW produced in the 70s.

However, notwithstanding the expansion into new segments, Porsche sports cars are still the best in their respective categories and often they punch above their price range. All manufacturers have tried to kill the 911 by their own models but this car is still the definition of the exciting, usable sports car after 50 years. There might be one in every corner in some areas but it is still a defining car that gives enormous pleasure to its drivers, especially in RWD coupe form.

"Form follows function"

The problem with the Porsche sport car segment is pricing. Porsche would be the first to acknowledge that the sport car is an impractical car even though they sell as a DD car. Nevertheless, the 911 was purchased by enthusiast as a DD because it was relatively cheap and very relaible. The car until recently could be bought for  substantially less $100,000. 

Today with a modicum of options most of the 911 models cost substantially more than a $100,000. That is a lot of money to pay for an impractical DD car. Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren are designed as weekend toys. They do not compete against Porsche.

KNowing this, Porsche wisely exploited its reputation and brand and transitioned to making PORSCHE SUV'S and sedans. The move has been a life saver for the company. When you compare the cost of the suv's and sedans to the 911, its no wonder more people are flocking to the more PRACTICAL PORSCHE.

No one wants to pay more for anything but the prices of most cars have gone up in the last 10-15 years. I don't know about the USA but a Modena for example, was just above 100K GBP in its day whereas a 458 is around 200K GBP. Porsche 911s which are a class below image-wise (though not engineering wise) follow the same trend but with less proportional increase.

Moreoever, technically and in terms of performance a 3.4 L 996 Carrera which was very affordable in its day,  is a distant relative of a 991S; this permits Porsche to ask for more. Top technology has never been cheap. See how many performance BMWs for example have under performing brakes due to the "parts bin solutions" applied to keep costs and prices low. The 911 is too bespoke to be classified as a large volume product but OTOH it is produced in sufficient numbers that allow full testing of components under all conditions for reliability. This cannot be fully achieved by producing a few hundred cars per year like some exotics

I don't think a Porsche sports car  fan and driver would buy a Cayenne or a Panamera because the latter offer better value for money but more for reasons of practicality in a family context. Many of those keep the sports car and get the SUV or limousine as extra.

--

"Form follows function"

I am not claiming there is not justification for the price increases. What I am stating is with the price increases (to the point where they are today) and given the environment for speed monitoring and control it is difficult to justify paying $130,000 for a DD car that can only hold two people with little storage space. The attitude is I can have a Porsche which seats five, plenty of storage and performance for about $75,000.

If you view them as substitutes for each other, fair enough. But are they? Is the feeling of driving a Panamera (competent as it is) the same as a 911? Is the difference worth the extra outlay? Some say yes others no. But sufficient people are willing to pay the extra for less practicality because not all buying decisions are based on quantifiable logic. That is the raison d'etre of luxury products in general. Is any handbag worth thousands of $$ by purely logical criteria 

"Form follows function"

 Agree with Nick as far as the US market is concerned , where 911 s have been far cheaper than ROW for a long time, and has been in the past always viewed and used here as a daily driver, other than the recent GT2 and GT3 models . I see far  fewer new 911s on the roads these days here in wealthy Silicon Valley than 15 yrs ago.  Everyone who was the typical  new 911 buyer back then is tooling around today in a Tesla Model S or Panamera type daily driver. The 911 here is not and has never been  precious  enough to save for weekends, like a Ferrari.

Before it was S class and 911 in garage, either used every day. Now it is Tesla S or Range Rover  for work and Ferrari or Aston convertible for weekend, around here.

The cost curve, to a large extent, is driven by governmental regulation. These regulations, ranging from safety (occupant and pedestian), fuel, and emissions, are increasing manufacturing costs as the regulations are diametrically opposed-weight increase for safety versus weight decrease for fuel economy-demand higher cost technical solutions.  DI requires higher nozzle pressures and greater computation power, for example.  

The 991 has an increased footprint to more easily comply with US fuel economy goals. Larger vehicles have lower thresholds. To counter the larger body shell, Porsche needed to introduce higher cost, lower weight materials to check weight.  However, with each corresponding price increase, as well as more technology features in higher volume vehicles, the price point moves up yet again to meet market expectations. 

Finally, the move to PDK is less about racing improving the breed, but more about meeting government regulation.  The engineers can better design control logic of the PDK to meet the testing cycles than with a manual.  Another example is the PSE to meet drive-by noise standards in normal mode, but then become much more raucous at a push of a button.  Don't be surprised that the PDK will include the sail feature on the GT3. 

CGX car nut:

...... Don't be surprised that the PDK will include the sail feature on the GT3. 

 This will not be the case. The GT3 will not have the sail, start-stop or eco shifting functions as the other 991 variants have. This was stated in a Porsche product update document I have read that the UK Dealers received from PAG...

I agree with everything else you said...

Peter

The New PDK-S gearbox is modified to make it quite different fro standard PDK.

• The car will not "creep" even in Drive when on a flat surface. 
• The shifts in manual model will not automatically move to the next gear when they hit the rev limiter.
• The ratios are tighter, lower and very carefully chosen and work with the engines ECU to ensure there are no dips in torque.
• Shift speed of the box has been improved and
• The internals strengthened with better oil lubrication for durability.
• Lastly as you know the clutch can be released by pulling back on the paddles. But its the was the power is re engaged which is also an important feature
• There is no eco system with stop start or any nannies

I do not believe the 991TT/S benefits from any of the features above. The gearbox like the engine is at this time unique to the GT3.

The second feature is also available on the standard PDK when in Sport Plus mode.

Also on the GT3 7th gear is a proper gear, not overdrive.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

PBS2010

 

It is sad enough to see that Porsche is now selling fewer sports cars than it used to do in the 1980’s – 1990’s (check the sale volumes, not just the proportion of the sports cars vs the others), to have become the manufacturer of Cayennes and Panameras predominantly.  

You are not right on this because prior to the 996, production and sales were at a few hundred cars per year. If I remember well in 1991 or 1992 production of all the then current models was just 3.000.

Production of 996 and 997 went up to some 15.000-20.000 units per year. If we also count the Boxster and Cayman ranges sportscar production is 10 times what it was in the period you mention. Sportscars may be declining as a % of total Porsxhe sales but in absolute numbers they are very high both historically and also by industry standards. Some even say that Porsche produce too many 911s for their exclusivity.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Reginos, I am afraid you are wrong.

In the mid-1980’s the Porsche production and sale volume was >50,000 cars (check for yourself from historical company data or, indirectly, via for example the Harvard Business School study on Porsche AG dated May 28, 1993 which is available on the web).

As we all know, at that time, Porsche was only making sport cars.

Today?

According to the Porsche AG Group Annual Report 2011, which ironically features a 991 on its cover page, here is the breakdown of the sale volumes of new vehicles for FY 2011 (page 2):

• Total units all models:  116,978
• 911:  17,607
• Boxster + Cayman:  11,280

This makes a total of 28,887 sports cars sold, far off the 1980s figures.

This is precisely what had in mind when I wrote my post and which justifies it.

I spare you the % of sports cars sold / total sales.  It would grieve us even more.

Comparables?  In 2011, Ferrari sold 7,195 cars, a record, up 9.5% when compared with 2010.  Think about it.  For every Ferrari sold, Porsche sold fewer than two Boxster+Caymans and a little over two 911s!

Cheers. 

Excepting a couple of record years in the mid 80s with around 50.000 cars p.a., in the late 80s sales were around 30.000 and in the 90s and until the Boxster, sales were very low at some 15.000, predominantly 911. Sales of the 968 and the late model 928s were very poor.

Production and sales volumes of sportscars nowadays is very normal and healthy by Porsche historical standards at around 30.000 with only 2 model ranges, whereas in the past there were 3 (911, 924/944/968, 928).  The fact that the other non-sport models are doing very well is not bad at all as it guarantees the continued financial health of the company. 

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Excepting a couple of record years in the mid 80s with around 50.000 cars p.a., in the late 80s sales were around 30.000 and in the 90s and until the Boxster, sales were very low at some 15.000, predominantly 911. Sales of the 968 and the late model 928s were very poor.

Production and sales volumes of sportscars nowadays is very normal and healthy by Porsche historical standards at around 30.000 with only 2 model ranges, whereas in the past there were 3 (911, 924/944/968, 928).  The fact that the other non-sport models are doing very well is not bad at all as it guarantees the continued financial health of the company. 

yes..but I also believe there is a fair point in his argumentation. Dont forget that these 50,000 or 15,000 were only sold in Western Europe, USA, plus a few other places. So today with a globalisation..Porsche cant sell more sports cars? What an irony in itself..wanna know my personal guess? The 911 will be the first Porsche taken out of the model range..useless car, not enough sales volume compared to Macan etc..

Long live the sportscar..but Porsche is no longer a Sportcarmanufacturer..since the introduction of the Cayenne..its share has only been decreasing..the question is when its "game over"...Im sure this will come one day...but when...?

GTlover:

..wanna know my personal guess? The 911 will be the first Porsche taken out of the model range..useless car, not enough sales volume compared to Macan etc..

I doubt that will ever happen. True as it may be that Porsches focus will move from sports cars to cash cows, I think that they will always keep the 911 as a validation of their heritage and history. At the very least it will always remain a symbol to the rest of the market that they have a past, and that sells. I hope it doesn't happen that way though. 

The mark up on several of the 911 models is pretty hefty the TT in particular. As long as a few are willing to pay these ever increasing prices for the 911, I doubt they will do away with the model. When everything is said and done, today Porsche is not a sport car company.

Wasn't it F.Porsche who once said the last car ever produced will be a sports car?

The last manual car I had was a Corvette, the V8 had so much torque down low most of the time I leave it in 2nd gear for city driving, other times I leave it in 3rd if I know I will be going faster. That is from rest, never bother to change to 1st gear.  For the times that I do dropped down into 1st gear to start, it has a 1st to 4th gear skip at low throttle setting, seldom do I encounter the skip as I do mash the throttle hard to disengage the skip feature, but I still shift into 4th anyway and just lug around all day in 4th.

Now that both my Porsche and McLaren has dual clutch boxes, I actually shifts MORE. I play around with gear changes for no reason other than to see the engine goes up an down in revs, enjoying the perfect blips and rev matching. 

Not that I cannot do that manually, I used to have a Miata in manual too. That car I HAD to change gear, it makes no power down low so 1st gear starts is a must and also HAD to go through 2nd, 3rd and 4th because it doesn't have enough power to skip gears. Was that fun? Not really. For the effort I put in the reward wasn't big enough.

I also had a 996 C4S in manual too, I actually traded a 2 weeks old C4S in tip for it cause the tip was so crappy back then. Was I happy with the manual? Yes a bit. Feels good to row the gears until I had my first 997 Turbo Tip. Now that was an eye opener, that tip box was good, but the PDK is just in another league. Having experienced PDK, I can never tolerate stone age manual boxes anymore. Never ever.

Seems like you never really enjoyed manual shifting in the first place, and the way you describe it is as an effort, a lesser evil when auto boxes were so bad until double clutch came along. You were destined for auto boxes regardless. If you liked manual shifting as I do for example, you would be shifting more in manual gearboxes than in PDK for example.

Very early this morning (Easter Monday here) I went for a 100km drive on a winding hilly backroad with imperfect surfaces, crests etc. I had the car in Sport Plus manual mode and the suspension in Sport except on the worst pavement and PSE of course. I enjoyed myself immensely shifting through the paddles (numerous times given the winding nature of the road)  and on one or two occasions through the stick (when the steering wheel was at a non-convenient position), I had both my hands on the wheel with perfect control all the time without having to change gear like on a manual, my feet were not unnecessarily occupied with the redundant clutch pedal but only with the throttle and brake and the sounds (both up and down)  the PDK forced the engine to make were the definition of joy. I can only imagine how a GT3 would behave.

Prompted by our debate here, I kept asking myself during my drive "would I be so fast and so joyful with a manual car?" The reply was an unequivocal NO. I drove cars with manual boxes all my life (including Porsche) but after the PDK there is no way going back. People who are not sure have to live with a DCT car and learn it, not just test drive one.

--

"Form follows function"

MKSGR:

RC:

 She would actually love to see me getting the Turbo S Cab but since I don't even know if I can afford the Turbo S Coupe, the Cab is out of the question I'm afraid.

... 

Maybe a 997 turbo S Cab 

I did some math and a 997 Turbo S (Coupe or Cab) would only make sense if I buy the car. 

Yes, the Cab has the well known issues with the rear seats but at least I would have two rear seats if I ever have to pick up the kids somewhere or even for a short drive to the restaurant. I'm not a big fan of Cabs, especially where I live they don't make much sense, so this wouldn't be a priority for me.

What really annoys me on the new 991 Turbo S is the very high price tag. This is really a problem for me. I could choose the Turbo instead but with the same options minus the PCCB, the price difference between the Turbo and the Turbo S would be 20k EUR "only", so going for the Turbo instead wouldn't really make sense (I actually wonder why Porsche didn't keep the "old" price tag on the Turbo, to widen the price gap between the Turbo and Turbo S).

That said, I really don't know what to do. I want a 911 again, I realized that I'm a 911 guy and right now, the 991 GT3 appeals to me most because of the performance/fun/price ratio. Unfortunately this car lacks AWD and most importantly, the back seats. Still...right now, the GT3 seems to be the only 991 high performance model I can afford, the 991 Turbo S seems to be out of my price league (I would need to return the Panamara Turbo S to the lease company much earlier than expected, which could be quite expensive for me).

So right now, I have the following choices (order according to personal preference):

1. 991 Turbo S

2. 991 GT3

The used 997 Turbo S isn't really viable for me since I cannot lease it "cheap" and I don't want to buy a car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Carlos from Spain:

. If you liked manual shifting as I do for example, you would be shifting more in manual gearboxes than in PDK for example.

Carlos, actually you end up shifting more with PDK then with manual ( when doing spirited driving in manual ) . You do it in places you would never do it with manual, as the gearbox allows you to do it ( middle of curb for example ) + as the shifts are so fast , you can go up, or down , one gear just for a few meters, were you could not do it with manual as it takes too much time, and so not allowing you these quick up one gear down one ( for example between two very close narrow corners )  This is a fun part of the PDK , and does come more with time. But it is probably not more efficient, just fun .

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Christian,i'm in the same your place....don't know what to do!

find a solution and then tell me!! hahahaha

997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo

RC:

MKSGR:

RC:

 She would actually love to see me getting the Turbo S Cab but since I don't even know if I can afford the Turbo S Coupe, the Cab is out of the question I'm afraid.

... 

Maybe a 997 turbo S Cab 

I did some math and a 997 Turbo S (Coupe or Cab) would only make sense if I buy the car. 

Yes, the Cab has the well known issues with the rear seats but at least I would have two rear seats if I ever have to pick up the kids somewhere or even for a short drive to the restaurant. I'm not a big fan of Cabs, especially where I live they don't make much sense, so this wouldn't be a priority for me.

What really annoys me on the new 991 Turbo S is the very high price tag. This is really a problem for me. I could choose the Turbo instead but with the same options minus the PCCB, the price difference between the Turbo and the Turbo S would be 20k EUR "only", so going for the Turbo instead wouldn't really make sense (I actually wonder why Porsche didn't keep the "old" price tag on the Turbo, to widen the price gap between the Turbo and Turbo S).

That said, I really don't know what to do. I want a 911 again, I realized that I'm a 911 guy and right now, the 991 GT3 appeals to me most because of the performance/fun/price ratio. Unfortunately this car lacks AWD and most importantly, the back seats. Still...right now, the GT3 seems to be the only 991 high performance model I can afford, the 991 Turbo S seems to be out of my price league (I would need to return the Panamara Turbo S to the lease company much earlier than expected, which could be quite expensive for me).

So right now, I have the following choices (order according to personal preference):

1. 991 Turbo S

2. 991 GT3

The used 997 Turbo S isn't really viable for me since I cannot lease it "cheap" and I don't want to buy a car.

Some people have big problems in their life

Judging from your idiosyncrasies,wishes and circumstances (family, social, climate) as demonstrated here of course,  the GT3 will be totally unusable, delegated to the garage and therefore an expensive toy.

The Turbo will not satisfy you, and less so a used 997, because the 991Turbo S exists and you will feel that you are missing out.

Go for the Turbo S and delete one or more of your other cars. You are sportscar person, don't pretend to yourself that the Cayennes or Panameras are 911 substitutes because you know better than me that they are not.

--

"Form follows function"

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

. If you liked manual shifting as I do for example, you would be shifting more in manual gearboxes than in PDK for example.

Carlos, actually you end up shifting more with PDK then with manual ( when doing spirited driving in manual ) . You do it in places you would never do it with manual, as the gearbox allows you to do it ( middle of curb for example ) + as the shifts are so fast , you can go up, or down , one gear just for a few meters, were you could not do it with manual as it takes too much time, and so not allowing you these quick up one gear down one ( for example between two very close narrow corners )  This is a fun part of the PDK , and does come more with time. But it is probably not more efficient, just fun .

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

You are spot on.

Last moment gear changes before a curve are a joy with PDK. Also, if you are in a higher gear by mistake  (no one is infallible) you can compensate by going down even as you just start entering.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

 

Go for the Turbo S and delete one or more of your other cars. You are sportscar person, don't pretend to yourself that the Cayennes or Panameras are 911 substitutes because you know better than me that they are not.

The Cayenne GTS will stay...perfect daily driver for me and perfect occasional family car for short or even longer trips. My GTS runs really well, this weekend we did a little trip with some friends in their 997 Carrera S Cab (355 hp version) and from 150 kph to 230 kph (the speed range we were traveling), the Carrera couldn't drive away, not even a cm. It was quite surprising for all of us but my GTS really runs well (maybe I should dyno it). I had two encounters with other Cayenne GTS and my car was obviously faster. I guess I was lucky since this was a car right from dealer stock, no press car or whatever. 

The Panamera Turbo S...well...this one has to go. I really love this car but this is not the right car for me...or my age.  I really thought it could replace a 911 Turbo (997) and it probably can (performance is very good, nothing to complaint here) but it feels too comfortable and it is huge. This isn't me, I never really liked sedans and I shouldn't have listened to my wife (she wanted the Panamera instead of the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit at that time). The Panamera Turbo S is a wonderful and fast car but it is more of a car for older people (sorry to say that...no offense meant) or for the typical S-class/7series driver. Not my cup of tea and I have to pay a hefty price for realizing that right now. My SUVs always made me happy, my sedans (E55 AMG, etc.) not. I'm definitely not getting a sedan anymore...ever. 

So the Panamera Turbo S will go and a 911 will replace it. Now the question is: Which one?! The 911 Turbo S would be my first choice and the GT3 my second. Yes, the GT3 will be less usable but I do not want to get a Carrera S instead. I wouldn't be happy with that, I need more power and better performance.

That said, I really have to think very very well about my next steps. Why? Well, this time, this is the final choice for the next 4-5 years. My car budget would be completely drained for the next couple of years if I do the "switch", so I better do it right this time. There is no way back after I made the decision and this makes it even harder.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Christian, Christian, what would we do without your eternal "car search"  I admire the energy you put into it, the desire to stick to your sometimes contradictory support arguments, and the ever recurring promise not to buy a new car the next 4-5 years once the purchase is made

But also your honest to admit mistakes

In your place, I would go for the 997 Turbo S - that is the "best value for money" right now. The GT3 you would never really use and have a garage queen and the new Turbo irrespective whether S or not is simply a "cash destroyer"  without delivering that much more "exprience".

Whatever choice you make and advice you need we are her for you - enjoy all in good health  

I agree with you about the Cayenne being the ideal mix of utility, speed, all weather usability and for a large vehicle very good handling.

I have found too that I can do high speeds with great ease on the highway in the Cayenne and on one occasion when I drove a Panamera S compared to the 911.

IMO this due to subjective reasons rather than sheer performance. In the 911 the sensory load, the harder ride, the sudden suspension changes going over irregularities, the concentration required  at speeds above 200-210km/h might affect someone's subjective sense of speed especially when there is wind or less than perfect pavement. The large cars OTOH isolate the driver and don't multiply the senation of speed. In the Panamera I found myself doing 230km/h unwittingly whilst observing the interior, without any sensation of speed at all. I was under the impression I was around the 120km/h speed limit! The 991 is better than previous 911s in this respect.

"Form follows function"