Crown

I may get the chance to drive (or to be driven in?) a 991 GT3 next month and maybe I will be disappointed with the new PDK or maybe not. I enjoy PDK in my Panamera Turbo S but this is of course a different type of car, so a comparison is quite useless. Wait until I get the chance to experience PDK in the new GT3 myself and I will post my honest opinion. Not that everybody cares to read it.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

reginos:

This discussion about FUN is age old. With every advancement in automotive technology there are people who are nostalgic about "how things were". They resist change.

A few examples of resistance to change are the claims of nostalgics:

• carburetors give more throttle response than fuel injection = more FUN
• unassisted brakes give more feel = more FUN
• unassisted steering is feelsome = more FUN
• non ABS brakes allow cadence braking = more FUN
• modern tyres have too much grip = less FUN
• electronic stability systems reduce the likelihood of a heavy crash = less FUN

Recently, DCT and Electric steering have been added to the list.

Manufacturers that don't move on with technology are condemned to death.

If Porsche listened to all this they would be the next TVR by now.

 

 

 

--

"Form follows function"

Excellent post!

How do I access the second article posted by Bi-Turbo?

Christian, despite your occasional chest beating about you're driving ability, I find your reviews of cars honest, entertaining and informative. Looking forward to the 991GT3 assuming they give you a chance to drive it.

PBS2010:

Guy:

Gnil:

Nice report , but did you not have the lunch at Porsche , made by chef Philipe Chevrier ? The deserts where exquisite 

No, I didn't get an invite, despite having had many 911s, last one being a factory collected 997GT2. A friend of mine asked his dealer (he has owned GT2/3s as well) and was told VIP invites cost £80 or similar, but they were all sold anyway.

The irony was not lost on me whilst being well entertained elsewhere.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I made the trip to Geneva and visited the show last Saturday.  Too much crowd around the usual stands (Ferrari, especially, totally out of control, and Lamborghini).  All you want is avoid them, which I did.  Unfortunately, the Lambo stand was next to Porsche’s.  Luckily I had an invitation to the Porsche stand and its restaurant upstairs, thanks to my dealer, which was great relief after the grueling experience of swimming through the crowd to get to the Porsche stand at the far end of the building.

The Porsche convenience restaurant was great.  Very friendly service and plenty of food and drinks available.  Yes, the desserts were varied and very good.

There was a very nice chap in the recessed office dedicated to the Exclusive department, to help you configure your dream GT3.  The new metallic colors were available, in particular the Rhodium Silver and the Saphire blue.  I could compare them with their prior “equivalent”, i.e. Platinium silver and Acqua blue respectively.  Rhodium Silver is much less dark than Platinium silver and more neutral. It is just plain silver, and very light.  It reminds me of the old Arctic silver.  For a typical silver metallic, it looks great.  The color as shown on the configurator does not do it justice as it looks much darker on the configurator as it is in reality.

The Saphire blue is also less dark than Acqua blue, and less flashy.  It looks much more elegant.  I am not sure tough if it fits the GT3 character.

For those who want extra choice, it is unsure at this point whether color to sample will be available, and if Yes, when.

However, the staff was down on technical expertise, with contradictory information available, at best.

The first impression you get when you see the GT3 in reality is that is it a big car.  It looks bigger than the prior model.  Inside, it feels cozy.  The rising center console feels strange and so does the gear lever which is quite high up.  You also feel much more down into the car.  With the bucket seats you cannot raise your seat so if you are not tall it might be an issue.  To be confirmed with a road test.

I could not get an answer on whether or not you could adjust the bucket seat height at the time of delivery of the car or at the time of production, in order to better fit the customer’s size.

The first GT3s will be produced this summer.  If you want to see a variety of GT3s, you can make an appointment with the relevant persons in Zuffenhausen to see the few cars they will have available, by the end of August.

I hope this helps. 

 

PBS2010, as you've seen Rhodium Silver in person. Can you say if the official photos of the Turbo are in Rhodium?

http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911/911-turbo/gallery/

BiTurbo:

KresoF1:
Sorry, wrong article. There is a comparison test of 991 Careers, manual and PDK in May issue. That article was on my mind, not the one you posted.

 

How in the world did I miss that article

Posting it on GCF...................thanks Kreso 

 

What do you mean posting it on GCF?

Hard to say:  Rhodium Silver is light grey indeed, as on the Turbo pictures.  However, the pictures of the Turbo show that the silver paint has some beige / champagne nuances, which reminds me of the Platinium silver rather than Rhodium Silver which is straight silver.

BTW, regarding the Turbos, I checked out the German site today.  The configurator is already active for the Turbo and Turbo S, for those who are interested.  Both models come with PDK only.  The Turbo S is shy of 200.000 euros.  The Turbo S has the PDCC as standard and a tricky front lip spoiler which moves down with speed and the Sport+ setting.  The rest is usual stuff for a turbo (equipment and comfort features making it closer to a Carrera than to the GT3).

Cheers.

How much the Porsche RS Spyder?  Is it on sale to the public (nowhere to be found on the Porsche site)?

nberry:

reginos:

This discussion about FUN is age old. With every advancement in automotive technology there are people who are nostalgic about "how things were". They resist change.

A few examples of resistance to change are the claims of nostalgics:

• carburetors give more throttle response than fuel injection = more FUN
• unassisted brakes give more feel = more FUN
• unassisted steering is feelsome = more FUN
• non ABS brakes allow cadence braking = more FUN
• modern tyres have too much grip = less FUN
• electronic stability systems reduce the likelihood of a heavy crash = less FUN

Recently, DCT and Electric steering have been added to the list.

Manufacturers that don't move on with technology are condemned to death.

If Porsche listened to all this they would be the next TVR by now.

 

 

 

--

"Form follows function"

Actually just read the article in Evo P1 against LaFerrari questionning eachother which is going to be faster around a track - and both constructors (Parry-williams for McLaren and Fedeli for Ferrari) and quote "..when a customers buys the car the main reason will be because he wants to enjoy himself. Enjoyment and performance are sometimes the same sometimes not.! unquote :  so again even supercarowners seek for the fun factor which has nothing to do with being nostalgic....

Mithras:

I have to admit that I feel at least half of you are talking a load of bollocks.

1) Lightweight and high powered are not mutually exclusive.

2)lightweight and high powered will ALWAYS trump heavy and high powered or light and low powered.

3) the fastest thing you can drive on a track is a light and powerful car. Racers don’t try to ADD weight!

4) a GT3 is NEVER going to be faster around a track than a huge number of road legal lightweight track cars. It is not faster than an Atom, many caterhams, any radical etc… I love them, I would buy one to track and drive but I know I’m going to get passed by an Atom on the track assuming equal skill (of which I have enough of for me to be able to pay someone to race their car).

5) Trackday cars are fun and fast on the track. They CAN also be fun blasting around backroads. They aren’t fun driving around back roads in the wet, driving in traffic, when you’re stressed and trying to think, when you have people other than yourself to take.

6)A GT3 is a track day car which has been softened up enough to allow those above things be a little or a lot less miserable.

7)I wouldn’t want to get into a big crash in any of them. A 911 is a car I would rather be in over most others so it’s not really fair. That said I’m not tracking a car with the thoughts of crashing forefront in my mind!

++++++++++++++++++++++

I agree.  You are spot on. Congratulations for telling the truth.

PBS2010:

Hard to say:  Rhodium Silver is light grey indeed, as on the Turbo pictures.  However, the pictures of the Turbo show that the silver paint has some beige / champagne nuances, which reminds me of the Platinium silver rather than Rhodium Silver which is straight silver.

BTW, regarding the Turbos, I checked out the German site today.  The configurator is already active for the Turbo and Turbo S, for those who are interested.  Both models come with PDK only.  The Turbo S is shy of 200.000 euros.  The Turbo S has the PDCC as standard and a tricky front lip spoiler which moves down with speed and the Sport+ setting.  The rest is usual stuff for a turbo (equipment and comfort features making it closer to a Carrera than to the GT3).

Cheers.

The color does not look that warm like platinum on these pictures, are sure there is no hint of blue in the rhodium silver?

nberry:

Christian, despite your occasional chest beating about you're driving ability, I find your reviews of cars honest, entertaining and informative. Looking forward to the 991GT3 assuming they give you a chance to drive it.

Well...only about a dozen people here in the forum know me personally and only a few of these people actually know first hand about my driving abilities, so it is difficult to argue with people who don't know me, the anonymity of the internet is not helpful in this regard. Most forums on the internet are crowded with people who run car forums, even give their opinion on high performance cars...driving a 944 or even "worse". Don't get me wrong, I am open minded and welcome each and every person to a car forum but theory is one thing, especially when this theory comes from reading car forums and playing car games on the Playstation and really driving and owning a sports car is a completely different story. Even some of those who claim to own a sports car, may actually not. It is difficult to know how many lies are circulating in a discussion, so please forgive me, if I sometimes beat my chest about this and that. I'm only human.

That said, I really hope that I get to drive the GT3 myself but since this isn't something official, I'm not sure. Porsche doesn't really bother to invite me for such events and if they do (to be fair...they sometimes do), I usually don't have the time because I have to make an honest living. Bummer.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

That said, I really hope that I get to drive the GT3 myself but since this isn't something official, I'm not sure. Porsche doesn't really bother to invite me for such events and if they do (to be fair...they sometimes do), I usually don't have the time because I have to make an honest living. Bummer.

RC, what city in Germany do you live in?  I'm still planning on a Euro delivery and trying to see if it can be done in November (perhaps less likely than not).    We can meet up if you don't mind driving a US spec GT3.

Edit: just read above you may get a chance before production cars hit the street.  Hope that works out for you!

--
94 964 Turbo, E36 M3 ltw, Euro motor (track car), buncha fishing boats

SciFrog:

Want manual? Get an older car, like a Singer or like my manual 612. Technology moves on, you don't have to like it, but don't hold back progress. The PDK GT3 is significantly faster than manual because if was designed with PDK in mind from the ground up.

This is the best answer to the dilemma some seem to face: if you get an older Porsche like a model G, 964 or even a 993 you get even more driver involvement plus you drive slower (which is safer - you cannot drive the modern GT models at 100%, 90% or even 70% of their potential on country roads. Thus, an older Porsche (maybe combined with a newer PDK car) might be the perfect solution for many 

P.S.: The GT models (even the manual shifted GT models) feel extremely comfortable and simple to use compared to a 911 from the 80s - one has to try the difference 

Here is the link to the RIP article cited by BIturbo above

http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/r-i-p-the-manual-gearshift.48922/

I think they have gone to wide and square on the 991TT/S and spoilt the lines. Much prefer the rear of the 991 C4S/GT3...

macca993:

I think they have gone to wide and square on the 991TT/S and spoilt the lines. Much prefer the rear of the 991 C4S/GT3...

 

Oh no! 

GTom:

macca993:

I think they have gone to wide and square on the 991TT/S and spoilt the lines. Much prefer the rear of the 991 C4S/GT3...

 

Oh no! 

Im not dreaming am I? This really doesnt look nice?

macca993:

I think they have gone to wide and square on the 991TT/S and spoilt the lines. Much prefer the rear of the 991 C4S/GT3...

 

Looks like Porsche could author a novel on that backside, or at the very minimum, post the epithet to the manual transmission.  

The next Targa 2014!  (Sorry Admin)

macca993:

GTom:

macca993:

I think they have gone to wide and square on the 991TT/S and spoilt the lines. Much prefer the rear of the 991 C4S/GT3...

 

Oh no! 

 

 

Im not dreaming am I? This really doesnt look nice?

I like the 991 Turbo(S) very much , but on the 997 and previous generations the Turbo was my favourite 911, on the 991 the simple classic Carrera just feels like the right way to go. At least as far as looks go. On the performance front thats a different story. 

Interesting comparison of 991 PDK vs manual from Evo magazine...

...thanks and all due credit to Richard Meaden! 

Too many other variables are different. Not comparing like with like. Pointless exercise.

--

"Form follows function"

frayed:

RC:

That said, I really hope that I get to drive the GT3 myself but since this isn't something official, I'm not sure. Porsche doesn't really bother to invite me for such events and if they do (to be fair...they sometimes do), I usually don't have the time because I have to make an honest living. Bummer.

RC, what city in Germany do you live in?  I'm still planning on a Euro delivery and trying to see if it can be done in November (perhaps less likely than not).    We can meet up if you don't mind driving a US spec GT3.

 

Edit: just read above you may get a chance before production cars hit the street.  Hope that works out for you!

--
94 964 Turbo, E36 M3 ltw, Euro motor (track car), buncha fishing boats

Thanks a lot for the offer...I am only 180km away from Porsche Zuffenhausen, so this wouldn't be a problem but I really hope to be able to drive the GT3 much earlier, latest around September when it officially shows up at dealerships.

I am still torn between the GT3 and the new Turbo S. While I know that the GT3 is the more involving car (and probably more fun to drive as a weekend fun car), now that the Turbo S is on the table too, my wife wants the two rear seats for our occasional family weekend trips. She would actually love to see me getting the Turbo S Cab but since I don't even know if I can afford the Turbo S Coupe, the Cab is out of the question I'm afraid.

My dealer provided a good offer for a GT3 and early delivery but I cannot decide what to do. Maybe I know more after the drive... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Hi RC.

I understand the 991TTS uses the standard PDK not the one in the 991 GT3. Shift lever  +/- are also as per the 991S PDK etc. I also understand it doesnt run the GT3 9000 rpm DFI variant engine. However I not aware of exactly what the engine spec is as they havent released the info as far as I know. 0-100 time is 2 tenths better than GT3 and Ring time about the same. Personally I was dissapointed that there is really no new tech here other than a baldder operated front air dam. Many were hoping tri turbo etc. Asthetically the design IMHO doesnt flow as well as the 991S & 991 GT3 which look like  cohesive package with nice flowing lines. The rear has squared off fenders as they have positioned the rear quarter panel vent higher and made is broader. The rear of the car seems to sit high too. Price looks to be 35%+ more than 991 GT3 with PDK-S. Everyone is different with different needs but the 991 GT3 now looks to be a whole lot better value than it did a month ago given whats includes, the performance and the asthertics IMHO. Just trying to save you money of course!

Also here I have seen rear seats retrofitted into 997.1 GT3 (the mounts are under the carpet) but I dont know if its legaal to do in Germany. However if it is you could buy seats from a wrecked 991 and put into the back of the 991 GT3 with belts no problem! I had this on my 996.1 GT3 and it worked well for little ones on occasional touring and added only around 9kg weight....

I don't think that the GT3 and the Turbo meet the same objectives. The GT3 is more of a weekend car for backroad, mountain  and track driving,when the weather is good. The Turbo is more of a superfast everyday car suitable for long distance travel with the safety of AWD. At least that was the theme from  996 to 997.2 and I don't think the 991 will be any different. 

The Carrera S is the best bet for 90% of the circumstances for 95% of owners at 65-75% of the price. People should think about their needs and abilities before committing more money on 911 variants IMO. Why buy a GT3 if your ability is such that you drive it at 50% or a Turbo if in order to preserve your license you drive at 130 km/h?

As to the rear seats, GT3s are type approved and registered as 2 seaters and cannot be legally converted. Of course in many countries (including mine ) people do more extreme conversions and get away with it.

--

"Form follows function"

macca993:

GTom:

macca993:

I think they have gone to wide and square on the 991TT/S and spoilt the lines. Much prefer the rear of the 991 C4S/GT3...

 

Oh no! 

 

 

Im not dreaming am I? This really doesnt look nice?

Sorry! It's real! I can't believe this ugly backside looks like a .....Hmmm?   Okay, i don't see so joke car before. No emotion, no power but high price!

kogtom:

PBS2010:

Hard to say:  Rhodium Silver is light grey indeed, as on the Turbo pictures.  However, the pictures of the Turbo show that the silver paint has some beige / champagne nuances, which reminds me of the Platinium silver rather than Rhodium Silver which is straight silver.

BTW, regarding the Turbos, I checked out the German site today.  The configurator is already active for the Turbo and Turbo S, for those who are interested.  Both models come with PDK only.  The Turbo S is shy of 200.000 euros.  The Turbo S has the PDCC as standard and a tricky front lip spoiler which moves down with speed and the Sport+ setting.  The rest is usual stuff for a turbo (equipment and comfort features making it closer to a Carrera than to the GT3).

Cheers.

The color does not look that warm like platinum on these pictures, are sure there is no hint of blue in the rhodium silver?

++++++++++++++++++++++

Re:  hint of blue.  The picture shows the car under a very bright blue sky, which sheds a certain light on the car and even more so with a metallic paint and even more so when the car is super clean, as is most probably the case in this instance.

Again, Rhodium Silver is a light and straight silver, lighter than the Patinium silver and without the beige/champagne nuances in the Platinium Silver.

Rhodium the chemical element is silvery white and I logically suppose this is the shade of the Porsche colour 

"Form follows function"

Rejinos. You are 100% correct of course. I was probably getting a bit carried away. But I would love to drive a GT3 everyday....but I dont wear a suit and sit in traffic and basically I only drive when I want to Work from home). So I dont think about everyday practical the same way some buyer would I agree...

RC:

 She would actually love to see me getting the Turbo S Cab but since I don't even know if I can afford the Turbo S Coupe, the Cab is out of the question I'm afraid.

... 

Maybe a 997 turbo S Cab 

MKSGR:

RC:

 She would actually love to see me getting the Turbo S Cab but since I don't even know if I can afford the Turbo S Coupe, the Cab is out of the question I'm afraid.

... 

Maybe a 997 turbo S Cab 

RC, did you not have a problem with your Carrera Cab as to the back seats ? ( too straight for your kids, so very uncomfortable  ) So , whatever other cab would give you the same problem again.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm