Crown

J.Seven:

 

The 997.1 TT with Tiptronic was one of the worst driving experience I had in a Porsche. The Tip.box it's just awful, the gears are slow, the buttons horrible to use, the torque converter makes you feel in a 80 Mercedes SEC and it sounds terrible, getting out of the 997.1TT Tip and driving my Carrera S PDK made me think that buying any Porsche with a Tip the worst buying decision one can have in life, it made a wonderful toy like 997.1TT feel boring & very unpleasant car to drive.

The 997.1TT with manual is so, so much better to drive.

J.Seven

Maybe your Tip was different than mine? 

On the 997 Turbo, the Tip was amazingly good but the driver had to adapt to the boost distribution to have fun with it. I called this method "pre-thinking" or "pre-charging".  So you had to anticipate the boost and Tiptronic worked wonderfully. I never even touched the buttons and yes, they were (and still are) horrible.

At some point, I tuned the car, which also included a Tiptronic software update (adjusted to the new possible Vmax) and the car was amazing.
 

So I cannot quite follow your claim and manual in a 997 Turbo surely isn't much fun in my opinion. Especially since the  997 Turbo has a very 911-typical setup, so if you turn PSM off and hit the road, expect some serious tail waving fun. Much easier to enjoy with Tip...also Tip is faster too.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Different perspectives (cool pics)  :

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

Why do you believe Porsche decided to not offer manual? Profit? Where I have a problem is since they are offering manual on other 911 models why not on the 991GT3 and 991TT?

Could it be performance considerations in that without PDK the GT3 and TT would not get any where near the performance parameters the car is capable of? I know when the issue came up with Ferrari, that is the reason they gave.

 

It bolils down to profits, they want to save on R&D and production costs of two gearboxes on the GT3 and TT variants if they can get away with it. They must of crunched their numbers and thought that the money they saved outweighed the potential sales they would loose. In the Carrera and Boxter/Cayman versions it would be much harder to justify, hence they still maintain a manual, albeit based on the PDK this time and not bespoke as it always had been.

Unfortunately I think they loose more than potential sales in the long run...

 

FWIW Carlos, I paraphrase but Andreas Preuninger said that his team developed both manual and PDK versions of the 991 GT3 to begin with. They were initially similar in performance. But, as the development process continued, the PDK got faster to the point where it was so much faster than the manual that the case for offering the manual fell away since it involved too much of a performance handicap compared to rival cars, and beating those cars was very important. So, it was a performance based argument, not an argument based on profits or subjective pleasure or interaction.

IMO it is a step too far. Many of us mix track driving with a lot of street driving so performance alone is not the sole factor to consider. For me, it is much more about my subjective pleasure and what appeals to me.

IMO the 997.2 GT3, 997.2 GT3 RS and 997 GT3 RS 4.0 will go down in history as collectors' cars for this reason.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

With this rationale the 996 GT3/ GT3 RS without stability systems and adaptive damping will be more desirable for future collectors.

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"Form follows function"

I agree with much of what youve said above. But it will take a long time for those to become collectors cars. People said the same to me about my 993RS when the 996.1 GT3 was launched but it took another 4 years for it to stop depreciating and start slowly appreciating. It took 14 years for it to be worth about what it cost new! Collectors cars maybe but in a decade or more time....

I listed those models because they are respectively the last manual versions in those respective ranges and they contain the various improvements that Porsche has made over time during the lifecycles of the 997 model range.

I agree with macca993 that it could take some time for these models truly to become collectors' cars but IMO their destiny is already clear.

In the interim, these models are "keepers" i.e. current owners will want to hang onto them if they still want a manual version ... this will keep resale prices up. Those like me who missed the boat and didn't buy one are now (depending upon my mood at the time) regretting this. All the same, these final manual models are highly desirable.

And eventually, as these cars become more scarce in the second hand market, their prices will one day rise.

(As an aside, it's truly staggering purely from a performance perspective that the 991.1 GT3 is already about as fast on the NoS as the 997 GT3 4.0. The 475PS plus PDK plus chassis improvements plus other improvements matches the manual 997 GT3 4.0 with its 500PS. Truly staggering IMO)

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider. I do agree with you. However youd be surpised how many 997.2 GT3 owners dont frequent these boards and will quickly jump to the new car! There will be plenty of used .2GT3/RS in the market for a while to come dont worry about that. 

Im keeping my old school 993 but have ordered the 991 GT3 because I relish something so different from what I have and know. 

One last thing. the 991 GT3 is faster than the 4.0 on the NoS, I know this directly through a kiwi friend who works on development there. Infact late last year the test drivers were putting in well under 7.30 with the new 4WS even when final tuning had yet been completed. How does the GTR in 201w with 1740kg and 540 bhp put down an official 7.26 and an about to be released 7.19? Its not power to weight ration we know that. Its 4WS and e-clutch. The GTR was the game changer and the 991 GT3 has decided to change the game for Porsche....

macca993:

easy_rider. I do agree with you. However youd be surpised how many 997.2 GT3 owners dont frequent these boards and will quickly jump to the new car! There will be plenty of used .2GT3/RS in the market for a while to come dont worry about that. 

Im keeping my old school 993 but have ordered the 991 GT3 because I relish something so different from what I have and know. 

One last thing. the 991 GT3 is faster than the 4.0 on the NoS, I know this directly through a kiwi friend who works on development there. Infact late last year the test drivers were putting in well under 7.30 with the new 4WS even when final tuning had yet been completed. How does the GTR in 201w with 1740kg and 540 bhp put down an official 7.26 and an about to be released 7.19? Its not power to weight ration we know that. Its 4WS and e-clutch. The GTR was the game changer and the 991 GT3 has decided to change the game for Porsche....

Yes.  Also wait to see what the new 991 Turbo S can do...  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

FWIW - I am loving my Mezger driven manual Turbo more and more!  It may be my keeper for the long haul.  Many adventures to come!

@macca993: sure, there will be owners of 997 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS that will want the new car ... but they will be the ones who don't mind about the PDK only situation ... I expect there will be a sub-set of owners for whom only a manual will do.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider91also 1:

FWIW Carlos, I paraphrase but Andreas Preuninger said that his team developed both manual and PDK versions of the 991 GT3 to begin with. They were initially similar in performance. But, as the development process continued, the PDK got faster to the point where it was so much faster than the manual that the case for offering the manual fell away since it involved too much of a performance handicap compared to rival cars, and beating those cars was very important. So, it was a performance based argument, not an argument based on profits or subjective pleasure or interaction.

IMO it is a step too far. Many of us mix track driving with a lot of street driving so performance alone is not the sole factor to consider. For me, it is much more about my subjective pleasure and what appeals to me.

IMO the 997.2 GT3, 997.2 GT3 RS and 997 GT3 RS 4.0 will go down in history as collectors' cars for this reason.

I  remember that too  but that's just the story from the PR  department IMO,  if they had a production ready manual developed and not just a testing jig they could still offer it as the optional equipment  and the PDK  would not be any shower for it,  and would still beat the rival cars.

Preuninger   also  used to say    before that the reason they did not offer a PDK  on the 997GT3  is because  the automatic did not fit with their concept of what the GT  cars should be like the manual does,  when we knew that the real reason is that it was not cost effective for them to develop a  completely new PDK  that would be compatible with the Metzer  engine the GT3/2  used.  Now that the GT3  gets the DFI  engine,  all of a sudden the PDK  is the best tranny for the GT3, and the only they offer.

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Carlos from Spain:

easy_rider91also 1:

FWIW Carlos, I paraphrase but Andreas Preuninger said that his team developed both manual and PDK versions of the 991 GT3 to begin with. They were initially similar in performance. But, as the development process continued, the PDK got faster to the point where it was so much faster than the manual that the case for offering the manual fell away since it involved too much of a performance handicap compared to rival cars, and beating those cars was very important. So, it was a performance based argument, not an argument based on profits or subjective pleasure or interaction.

IMO it is a step too far. Many of us mix track driving with a lot of street driving so performance alone is not the sole factor to consider. For me, it is much more about my subjective pleasure and what appeals to me.

IMO the 997.2 GT3, 997.2 GT3 RS and 997 GT3 RS 4.0 will go down in history as collectors' cars for this reason.

I  remember that too  but that's just the story from the PR  department IMO,  if they had a production ready manual developed and not just a testing jig they could still offer it as the optional equipment  and the PDK  would not be any shower for it,  and would still beat the rival cars.

Preuninger   also  used to say    before that the reason they did not offer a PDK  on the 997GT3  is because  the automatic did not fit with their concept of what the GT  cars should be like the manual does,  when we knew that the real reason is that it was not cost effective for them to develop a  completely new PDK  that would be compatible with the Metzer  engine the GT3/2  used.  Now that the GT3  gets the DFI  engine,  all of a sudden the PDK  is the best tranny for the GT3, and the only they offer.

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Carlos, I have to say I believe in what Mr Preuninger stated here. There is no way a manual car can match a modern PDK shifted car on the track - if the system works well. The only upside on the manual is the emotional aspect. But if one argues about performance alone, how should a manual car be competitive It is sad but true, technology has evolved a lot over the last decade.

No I don't disagree that the PDK is faster, from a performance point of view the manual is at a disadvantage, and considering that 99% of owners won't be pro drivers, that makes the difference ever bigger since its easier to extract the performance from the PDK than from a manual. What I'm saying is that that is being used as an excuse for not offering a manual, when the real reasons are profits and cost.  Like I said offering a manual option would not make the PDK cars any slower,  just like old Tip cars did not make manual versions slower. They decided to build only one tranny for cost cutting reasons and they choose the PDK because of its performance. Everything else about why not to offer a manual are just scripts from the marketing department.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but on the track (911 RSR cup cars) they use a sequencial manual which requires a clutch for downshifts (which when you want it for perfect balance setup going into a corner) and no clutch for upshifts once rolling for the quickest hardest shifts up through the grears.  PDK does not even come close to that type of box but one could argue all day long that it is the quickest shifting on the track...  the PDK is an idiot proof wana be sequencial manual in the same way the DFI engine is a wana be race engine ala Mezger - sadly with the best part missing - the clutch.

It would be nice if the 991 GTS RS had a seq. manual like the Cup car... that would shut me up.

Unless, during testing there was such a large performance gap between manual and PDK, so that manual examples would disgrace the "Porsche GT concept", in the face of DCT-only superior competition.

In the past manual GTs competed against automated manuals that were not so good.

"Form follows function"

If it was about profits, Porsche could have listed the manual as an option and charged for it. They did not do that.

Porsche failing to make the PDK standard on the GT3 a performance based car would be like they equipping the car with circa 2000 tires. 

Well... This debate about manual vs PDK is really an interesting one. At the time I was a huge manual fan, now I am huge PDK fan. Why? It is way easier to be truly fast with PDK, simple as that. Both hands on steering wheel is important thing as Christian repeated many times.

Now... Imagine yourself as die hard manual fan who owns 997.2 GT3 RS and you got an invitation from your friend(both of you are skilled drivers) for a nice drive on your favourite country road, Your friend just got 991 GT3 so, it will be an intersting ride. Both of you started at the same time, road is empty and both of you can push as fast as possible. After few corners your friend in his 991 GT3 is right on your bumper and after two loong straights he overtake you. What the hell-you think, I am enjoying my perfect hill and toe technic after all. Just, after few extra kilometers of the road your friedn in his 991 GT3 is gaining extra space and you realize the he will soon put nice distance between his car and yours.

Yes, this is pure fictional story but... This is also a pure fact. If you can live with the fact that only thing that can please you in spirited driving is changing gears with manual tranny then you will stay with your excellent 997,2 GT3 RS and wont request from Porsche to build 991 GT3 with manual tranny. If you will feel even a little bit of bitter taste in your mouth then you are admiting that progress is..well progress after all.

Point for manual lovers is only this-how much important is manual gearchaning in total spirited driving experience for me?

nberry:

If it was about profits, Porsche could have listed the manual as an option and charged for it. They did not do that.

maybe on the carrera/boxster but that would not work on such a low volume car, even charging for it as an option may not compensate the costs of developing and producing it.

KresoF1

Now... Imagine yourself as die hard manual fan who owns 997.2 GT3 RS and you got an invitation from your friend(both of you are skilled drivers) for a nice drive on your favourite country road,

I have been in that scenario many times and in my experience no one element will give you such a significant advantage on a country road. Not the tranny type, not a powerkit, not suspensions upgrade, etc. You will always be able to keep up and vice versa ,and to overtake you would need like a carrera vs gt3 with cup tires advantage.

I have never felt like I was at a disadvantage with a manual in country road outings (track is a different matter), and never been left behind because of it, yet my drive was much much more enjoyable for me than if I had a PDK.

If Porsche are reading this thread, they will soon introduce a "991 Retro edition".

Besides manual transmission with a very heavy cable operated clutch it will be equipped with non-assisted steering, non servo brakes, conventional dampers and re-introduction of the 1970s Pirelli P7 tyres.

That will be a very  enjoyable machine offering enormous feel in all areas.

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"Form follows function"

Carlos from Spain:

No I don't disagree that the PDK is faster, from a performance point of view the manual is at a disadvantage, and considering that 99% of owners won't be pro drivers, that makes the difference ever bigger since its easier to extract the performance from the PDK than from a manual. What I'm saying is that that is being used as an excuse for not offering a manual, when the real reasons are profits and cost.  Like I said offering a manual option would not make the PDK cars any slower,  just like old Tip cars did not make manual versions slower. They decided to build only one tranny for cost cutting reasons and they choose the PDK because of its performance. Everything else about why not to offer a manual are just scripts from the marketing department.

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Now I got your point 

MKSGR:

Carlos from Spain:

No I don't disagree that the PDK is faster, from a performance point of view the manual is at a disadvantage, and considering that 99% of owners won't be pro drivers, that makes the difference ever bigger since its easier to extract the performance from the PDK than from a manual. What I'm saying is that that is being used as an excuse for not offering a manual, when the real reasons are profits and cost.  Like I said offering a manual option would not make the PDK cars any slower,  just like old Tip cars did not make manual versions slower. They decided to build only one tranny for cost cutting reasons and they choose the PDK because of its performance. Everything else about why not to offer a manual are just scripts from the marketing department.

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Now I got your point 

Even if it were for cost/profit reasons, why would a state of the art technology company invest in an  inferior piece of equipment (a manual box) for its  top of the range product? The development money could be spent on other engineering priorities. The old Tip was offered as a marketing solution for people who had to have an auto in spite of its weaknesses. It was not an engineering solution. The PDK offers the best of both worlds thus  making the manual redundant on all except entry level models that need to be available at a lower starting price for people who buy at a stricter budget.

The Porsche direction is that of all top sportscar manufacturers from Mercedes SLS to McLaren and Ferrari. Even second and third tier companies like  Audi and VW sell more DSG and those who buy manual do it only for cost containment reasons. In all categories a very small % buy manual by choice nowadays, to the extend that I think that this transmission system will be totally withdrawn by 2020. 

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"Form follows function"

KresoF1:
Carlos,
You are pretty sure that you are right, aren't you?
We'll, did you read article about manual vs PDK comparison in EVO May 2013 by Richard Meaden?

Well I said "in my experience" because everybody's experience may differ, but in my experience that has been so far the case, but I would not claim for it to be the case for everybody else.

Also we are talking about mountain roads, were things are more evened out and less of an influencing factor (the knowledge of the road in never the same, the driver skills are not the same, the lead driver has a handicap because he has to keep a great safety buffer in braking, cornering, etc than the trailing car, the rithym on public roads is not as all out as in the track so differences are not as great, etc and most importantly there are basically no straights like on the track in mountain or country roads),so is very different from the track.

reginos:

Even if it were for cost/profit reasons, why would a state of the art technology company invest in an  inferior piece of equipment (a manual box) for its  top of the range product? 

But who are you to say what is inferior for me or other clients?  some would argue that 4WD and intrusive GT-R like electronics is superior because of greater grip,should Porsche go that way with the new GT3? don't think so... 

And forllowing that reasoning, why should Porsche bother making cabrio versions if they are inferior as well?  they are heavier, have greater drag, more flexible chasis, etc... open top driving experience that some customers want and prefer should not mare... its inferior performance wise...

No, the manual may be inferior to you if you are looking only for perforance and don't appreciate the manual experience (which is perfectly respectable), but it may be superior for others who prioritise the manual driving experience over a few fractions of a second of performance on a street car...

To each his own. And options are there so drivers can choose that they consider superior:AWD vs RWD, auto vs manual, coupe vs cab, turbo vs GT3, std vs sport suspensions, etc

Carlos, just plan on your next car being PDK. Resistance is futile. You will be a much better driver with it.

Versions are developed based on effective demand i.e. if there are enough buyers wiling to pay for it.

Apparently, Porsche believe that in this sportscar class the demand for manual is not sufficient to justify the development cost and the engineering  resources to be devoted. Why there is little demand? because there is no real benefit. This coincides with other manufacturers who produce upper level sportscars. They must all know something some of us try to deny.

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"Form follows function"

reginos:

Versions are developed based on effective demand i.e. if there are enough buyers wiling to pay for it.

Which is basically what I have been saying, they decided to build only one tranny for cost cutting reasons and they choose the PDK because of its performance, the GT3 is not a high volume car like the Carrera/Boxster as so decided not to spend on two gearbox options. And they have every right to do so mind you, afterall they are a company and they have to look out for profits above all else, but they are turning their back on some faithful customers because of it.

Can someone link the EVO article regarding PDK vs manual? Love to read it.

nberry:

Carlos, just plan on your next car being PDK. Resistance is futile. You will be a much better driver with it.

I may!!  I don't discard it at all. After all only then will I really know if I can live with a PDK and not miss the manual more, or not