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Apr 28, 2013 8:23:07 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
nberry:
The 991GT3 also has the push pull feature. I posted the question because there is no way a human can shift that fast using a clutch.
Thats no the push/pull he is refering to, the Cup uses a completely different box, its a six speed true up/down secuential like those found on sportbikes or F1 cars, and the PDK is just an traditional H box that has been automated. They have nothing in common.
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Apr 28, 2013 9:01:18 PM
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nberry
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Carlos from Spain
Apr 28, 2013 9:25:49 PM
- Boxster Coupe GTS
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
"The power of the engine is transmitted to the rear axle by a racing clutch and a newly developed Porsche six-speed sequential gearbox with mechanical slip differential. The electropneumatic paddle shift system makes gear changes even faster and more efficient."
- Porsche six-speed sequential dog-type gearbox
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Gear ratios:
- Ring & pinion gear 14/22 i = 1.571
- Final drive 17/41 i = 2.412
- 1st gear 13/41 i = 3.154
- 2nd gear 17/40 i = 2.353
- 3rd gear 19/36 i = 1.895
- 4th gear 19/29 i = 1.526
- 5th gear 24/30 i = 1.250
- 6th gear 34/35 i = 1.029
- Internal pressure-oil lubrication with active oil cooling
- Limited slip differential
- Triple-disc sintered metal race clutch
- Pneumatic paddle shift system
Porsche 991 GT3 Cup: Technical Details -- Video Link
Apr 28, 2013 9:45:48 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
nberry:
I realize the Cup box is different but the GT3 box uses the gear shift handle the same as the Cup box
Yes, so does my Audi Q5 with dual-clucth gearbox, but that doesn't make it similar to the Cup's 
I sure the PDK will probably be the best auto on a streetcar, although there are other considerations besides shift-speed, but the Cup's is on a hole other ball game with nothing in comon (including sound and feel), after all its logical, its a racear
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
The PDK is nothing like a "traditional H" - it has 2 clutches and gear drive shafts each with half the gears and the computer predicts and preselects the next gear needed so power is not interrupted as one clutch disengages and the other engages. That is what the GT3 has. It was developed a long time ago by Porsche for racing,
The single clutch sequential gearbox has become the norm in race cars. I suppose it is less complex and lighter than PDK, but also uses computers and electromechanical actuators to do the engaging and engine management, It is unburdened by the need for gentle shifts for sure.
Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
A difference between the GT3 and the Carrera PDK, is that in the GT3 when using the gear lever to change gear manually, the direction is reversed. You push for - and pull for +, opposite to Carrera (and Panamera). This will satisfy track drivers.
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Apr 29, 2013 7:41:46 PM
- Boxster Coupe GTS
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
***** First Drive: 2014 Porsche 911 GT3 ***** (Road & Track)
(29 April 2013)
At this spring's Geneva motor show, there were crowds fighting to snap pictures of the newest fast cars from Lamborghini, Ferrari, and McLaren. Over at the Porsche stand, a drop-dead gorgeous 911 GT3 sat in relative solitude, receiving only passing, disapproving glances.
The proverbial pitchfork-wielding Porsche purists weren't pissed just because the new car no longer uses the Le Mans-winning Mezger engine of previous GT3s. No, the nail in the newest Porsche's coffin of public opinion is that it will be available only with an automatic transmission. Which is, by the way, no different from the crowd-pleasers over at Lamborghini, Ferrari, and McLaren.
"I don't get this Stone Age idea about what a 911 should be," says Andreas Preuninger, the man responsible for Porsche's GT cars, at Porsche's rain-dampened proving grounds the next day. "With the first GT3, they were practically throwing rocks at me because it didn't have an automated-manual transmission, which was where all the hype was at the time. But those transmissions weren't very good. Now, the GT3 gets a perfect [dual-clutch automatic], and everyone is screaming for the manual."
We admit that, this time, we were part of the screaming. The GT3 has always been the 911 that offered the least of what techno-crazed Germans would call "progress," but as a result, it led the sports-car world in terms of driving experience. It was the rawest, purest expression of everything that defines the 911—right down to its detuned race motor and wrist breaker of a manual shift lever.
"Ugh, God, you're one of them!" says Preuninger, rolling his eyes. "Just shut up and drive the thing."
The new GT3 starts up with a bark no less intense than that of the old car. The interior buzzes, both literally and figuratively, at idle. The variable-stiffness magnetorheological engine mounts are clearly not tuned for comfort. When you start out from a stop, there's an overabundance of revs, noise, and clutch slippage. Our test car is a preproduction prototype, but if Porsche has any sense, the transmission's programming will stay exactly like this.
Moving off, as you're focusing on the clutch engagement, something else grabs your attention: The steering snaps to life. This doesn't happen in a regular 911, with which the GT3 shares its steering hardware. It took Preuninger's team more than two years of programming work before he was happy with the electrically assisted steering; he wanted the driver to feel everything the car's tie rods experience. This is doubly good news, as it means the GT3 has steering reminiscent of older Porsches, but it's also an indication that there's hope for the regular, numb-helmed 911. And the Boxster/Cayman twins, which use similar equipment.
Cruising at U.S.-highway speeds on Porsche's track, the GT3's steering isn't quite as talkative as that of a 997. Still, given how distant the steering in the base Carrera feels, it's a miracle that it talks at all. And the weighting is genuinely natural when you turn into a corner. On this slick surface, we could almost criticize the steering for not communicating enough as the front tires lose adhesion. Except the rear tires let go at the same time. Understeer is nowhere to be found; at the limit, the car goes neutral. Stability control is very lenient, interfering only when the driver doesn't correct as quickly as the rear wheels come around. And when Preuninger, sitting in the passenger seat, switches off the system with a devilish laugh, the GT3 becomes as throttle-steerable as every GT3 before it.
Then there's the active rear steering. Frankly, Porsche's marketing department should have left that out of the press conference. You'll never know it's there. You'd hardly describe the previous GT3's reactions as ponderous, but the old car did take a moment to settle into a corner, especially at the rear. The new car turns in instantly and as a whole, with none of the artificial feeling imparted by the regular Carrera's optional active anti-roll system. Preuninger meant it when he told us to shut up and drive: Even the sharpest purist rhetoric falls apart when the GT3 feels exactly like a 911 from behind the wheel, only better.
And don't bother crying over the disappearance of the Mezger motor. This car uses effectively the same 3.8-liter block as the Carrera S, but that tremendously oversquare engine's bore and stroke dimensions are each within a millimeter of the last GT3's 3.8.
The new engine hits its power peak where the old one hit its rev limiter. It redlines at 9000 and makes 475 hp from just 3.8 liters. Shut up, indeed.
Along with additional oiling capability, the GT3 engine uses titanium connecting rods and forged aluminum pistons. Its cylinder heads have been substantially reworked for high-rpm duty, including nerd-porn finger followers that incorporate hydraulic valve-lash adjustment. Happily, this six isn't as soft in the low range as its 6250-rpm torque peak would suggest. It lives to rev, though we had to fight the instinct to shift shy of redline. That's probably because our ears have never before been treated to the sound of a nine-grand flat-six in a street car, but forward thrust eases noticeably in the 750 rpm between the horsepower peak and the redline. Noise does not. The GT3 emits a pained wail that, along with the high-pitched whine from the transmission's hydraulic pump, will have a Ferrari 458 looking around nervously for the nearest exit.
To grab the next gear, you can pull one of the steering-column paddles, which feel heftier than those of a regular 911. Or, if you're in the middle of a turn, sideways and arms crossed up, you'll want to use the console shifter, because the paddles aren't fixed to the steering column. And there's even more good news: By reversing the shift pattern, Porsche has finally admitted—without actually admitting anything—that its Tiptronic (torque-converter automatic) and PDK (dual-clutch) shift levers have been backward for years. The GT3's lever now operates like a sequential race 'box, with a push forward for a downshift and a pull for an upshift.
The seven-speed transmission contains revised gearing compared with the regular 911. Every single ratio is different, as is the final drive. A quick calculator workout, however, shows that while the ratios are much shorter overall, the GT3's additional 1200 rpm makes up for the gap—the car's maximum speeds in gears one through five are nearly identical to those of a Carrera S. The additional grunt and shorter gear ratios knock a staggering 0.7 second off the Carrera S's already blistering sprint to 60 mph. Fuel economy will likely suffer, but we don't care, and you shouldn't either.
More important, the GT3 hits its top speed in top gear (and at just over 8000 rpm), where other PDK-equipped Porsches do the deed in sixth. The GT3 also reacts more quickly to shift requests than does the regular 911, and Preuninger even installed a clutch-dump function—pull both paddles in any gear, and the engine will freewheel. Release them, and drive will gently reengage. If you're in Sport Plus mode, the gearbox will unceremoniously dump the clutch.
"I wanted to make sure I could still do a burnout when I pull up next to a Prius at a red light," Preuninger says. The man is quickly approaching sainthood.
Alas, the GT3 wouldn't need the Prius-paddle function if it had a real clutch pedal. Hearing this, Preuninger's chiseled face drops.
"The manual-versus-PDK argument was the most discussed point [during development], and we only made the decision to go with the PDK last August. This is genuinely the first time a paddle gearbox is satisfying to me. PDK takes away the clutch, which is the interface between man and machine. I admit that. But it gives back more. Every shift of the manual-transmission car loses almost a half car-length [on acceleration]. That means after three shifts, the [automatic] GT3 can pass a manual GT3 and pull safely in front of it."
To which we couldn't help but respond, "Yeah, a GT2 or an automatic Turbo could do that, too."
The crux of the issue is that there's a fundamental difference between speed-obsessed German engineers and good ol' silly Americans who just love to drive a manual. For the former, there's a point at which the automatic is faster and can be programmed to be more efficient. It then becomes "better." To the rest of us, it merely becomes a better automatic. And while the GT3's PDK is one of the better automatics, there is not, nor will there ever be, an automatic that is as involving as a manual. The 911, like so many other cars, has traded a degree of involvement for speed. We'd happily lose time on the sprint to 60 mph, or a few seconds per lap, if it meant more fun.
But rather than lay all the blame on Preuninger and Germans as a whole, we're partly at fault. There was a time when most enthusiasts seemed to view the dual-clutch automatic as the second coming. After living with those transmissions for a decade, they just feel like automatics.
On that note, allow us to apologize on behalf of an entire industry. We were wrong. We don't care about shaving tenths off acceleration runs. We want to work for our lap times. We're bored to death behind the wheel, and we want to get busy with a shift lever and a clutch pedal.
Perhaps those Germans also can admit they made a mistake. No need to apologize for the directional operation of the shifter or the regular 911's lack of steering feel; those are now fixed.
You have to hope that, at some point, Porsche will release a Mea Culpa Edition GT3 with a six- or seven-speed manual. In the meantime, we'll just enjoy the version we have. Which—if you'll please just shut up and drive it—is one hell of a consolation prize.
Apr 29, 2013 8:07:12 PM
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nberry
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Apr 29, 2013 8:13:56 PM
- CGX car nut
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
nberry:
Faint praise from a manual shift writer. He tried very hard not to like the car and that came through loud and clear.
So? There are a few of us troglodytes that enjoy the art of driving versus the art of engineered engineering prowess for the sake of computer controlled quickness.
Apr 29, 2013 8:27:36 PM
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nberry
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
Your post is an indication of your lack of knowledge regarding using sequential transmissions in performance driving. If anything you need to be a better driver. You enter and exit turns faster and hit higher speeds quicker. Using a manual only slows down the entire racing experience very much like training wheels.
BTW, I suspect all professional race car drivers would disagree with you as well. 
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Apr 29, 2013 9:05:07 PM
- CGX car nut
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
nberry:
Your post is an indication of your lack of knowledge regarding using sequential transmissions in performance driving. If anything you need to be a better driver. You enter and exit turns faster and hit higher speeds quicker. Using a manual only slows down the entire racing experience very much like training wheels.
BTW, I suspect all professional race car drivers would disagree with you as well.
One is not talking about setting a fast lap, instead one is talking about the personal satisfaction one receives from a well-executed toe-and-heel downshift or the careful positioning of the car at the apex of a turn.
Professional drivers get paid for only one thing: Going fast enough to win races. So the metrics between a professional driver and a sports car/driving enthusiast are often mutually exclusive. However, for those lacking in hand-eye coordination or the bon vivant poseur computerized controls help fulfill that Walter Mitty milieu.
Apr 29, 2013 9:06:24 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
Without debating whether PAG is actually right or not, I read this article as an attempt by the writer to decide whether PAG has answered the purists' concerns in the new car with the conclusion that the writer is not persuaded by the new 991 GT3 solely in relation to the decision not to offer a manual transmission but instead only a PDK version.
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Apr 29, 2013 11:46:20 PM
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nberry
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
easy_rider911:
Without debating whether PAG is actually right or not, I read this article as an attempt by the writer to decide whether PAG has answered the purists' concerns in the new car with the conclusion that the writer is not persuaded by the new 991 GT3 solely in relation to the decision not to offer a manual transmission but instead only a PDK version.
Do we define a purist as one who demands manual as the only way he/she can have fun driving? If so, he/she is not a purist but someone who either has not driven a sequential or does not know how to.
I recognize some are from the old school and like to masturbate using the clutch and gear shift. Fine but don't tell the new technology it isn't fun until you have tried and mastered it. I have driven/owned Porsche's and Ferrari's that were manual and later PDK/F!. To me there is more involvement in extracting optimal performance from the car when you can DRIVE IT and shift at appropriate times. Only professionals come close to doing that with manuals.
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
Gents. I read the article twice 5 hours ago.
Firstly, the test drive was a few laps of a track at "highway speeds". Obviously the tester was restricted to go any faster than perhaps 70-90 kmph. I doubt there's much you can learn about the suspension, shifting and handling at those speeds on a race track.
Secondly a race track is super smooth. Any steering feel would be quite different than on the road.
Thirdly, this motor noter clearly had it in for the GT3 regards transmission choice form the get go.
In light of all above the article didnt read so bad. The engine sounds good, the 4WS is non obtrusive, handling is positive and steering feedback even on the smooth track at low speed sounded positive too. Clearly the issue with "no stick" was not going to go away with this writer on such a short accompanies drive.
There must have been an embargo on this being released because it seems it may have been written over a month ago using the Geneva PCCB equipped show car.
Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
nberry:
Manual or PDK.
*Flame Suit on*
Manual 
PDK is best suited in an overweight Cayenne / Panamera (S) (which I got to drive for couple of days before my Cayenne was fixed and enjoyed it, but in the end it's like any other automatic when it's in boring automatic mode) 
I hated the up/down shift buttons and still prefer paddle shifts.
Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
No one demands a manual on a Ferrari supersports, but there are some people demanding manual on Porsche and even BMWs 
I cannot understand the premise of their wish, since modern DCTs are faster than manual gear changes and allow the driver to drive concentrate more on his braking and car control which count for speed and efficiency rather than waste time and energy on the clutch pedal and the stick.
Most of the so called "purists" originate from the USA and IMO there is a sociological reason for this. USA was the first country where the easy but slow auto gearboxes were widely used and I believe one of the first countries where you could get a "auto only" driving license, for girls and wimps 
. Therefore, because of these prejudices someone who still drives manual considers himself as the more macho man and the more gifted driver.
I grew up with manuals and I can drive a manual very very well. But with modern technology the traditional gearbox gives no advantages at all. It is redundant museum piece.
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
reginos:
Most of the so called "purists" originate from the USA and IMO there is a sociological reason for this. USA was the first country where the easy but slow auto gearboxes were widely used and I believe one of the first countries where you could get a "auto only" driving license, for girls and wimps
Spot on!
Apr 30, 2013 7:20:53 AM
- BjoernB
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
CGX car nut:
nberry:
Your post is an indication of your lack of knowledge regarding using sequential transmissions in performance driving. If anything you need to be a better driver. You enter and exit turns faster and hit higher speeds quicker. Using a manual only slows down the entire racing experience very much like training wheels.
BTW, I suspect all professional race car drivers would disagree with you as well.
One is not talking about setting a fast lap, instead one is talking about the personal satisfaction one receives from a well-executed toe-and-heel downshift or the careful positioning of the car at the apex of a turn.
Professional drivers get paid for only one thing: Going fast enough to win races. So the metrics between a professional driver and a sports car/driving enthusiast are often mutually exclusive. However, for those lacking in hand-eye coordination or the bon vivant poseur computerized controls help fulfill that Walter Mitty milieu.
+1 
Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
I had a lot of fun driving manual but after being "forced" (my second 911 Turbo (a 997) had Tiptronic because A. it was faster with Tiptronic and B. I thought my wife would drive this car too) to drive Tiptronic, I learned the benefits of concentrating on the driving, not the shifting. Yes, it may be more fun to drive a manual but on the other hand, it is actually ever more fun to achieve better track times and to put some of those behind you who made fun of you because of the auto tranny. 
It is kind of a personal preference if someone prefers manual or PDK but PDK has evolved a lot and I can have a lot of fun with PDK, even in auto mode, which allows me to concentrate more on my driving than shifting.
For some people, record lap times may not be important but for others, they are. Achieving these numbers with a manual becomes almost impossible (same stock car).
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
RC:
I had a lot of fun driving manual but after being "forced" (my second 911 Turbo (a 997) had Tiptronic because A. it was faster with Tiptronic and B. I thought my wife would drive this car too) to drive Tiptronic, I learned the benefits of concentrating on the driving, not the shifting. Yes, it may be more fun to drive a manual but on the other hand, it is actually ever more fun to achieve better track times and to put some of those behind you who made fun of you because of the auto tranny.
It is kind of a personal preference if someone prefers manual or PDK but PDK has evolved a lot and I can have a lot of fun with PDK, even in auto mode, which allows me to concentrate more on my driving than shifting.
For some people, record lap times may not be important but for others, they are. Achieving these numbers with a manual becomes almost impossible (same stock car).
Quite right. This debate about manual vs PDK is silly becasue it boils down to the subjective preference of the driver, particularly if they are an enthusiast. Poseurs and luddites will naturally be drawn to one camp or the other but we shouldn't let them muddy the debate. Where I think Porsche has gone wrong is by not catering to both camps.
Regarding the article, the writer clearly prefers manual so a PDK car is never going to completely win him over. Otherwise the review was very positive and even the steering came for faint praise! But I think I will wait for production model reviews from the likes of Evo and Pistonheads before drawing too many conclusions.
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
there is even more "fun" around the corner - I heard that the "next thing" is now shifting will be linked to the GPS Map Navi - meaning the car will know what the road in front will look alike and shift for you accordingly up or down at perfect moments - and I am sure that will be topped by the "automated braking fun" allowing to brake much later than a human would do setting even better times so you can leave those in yr wake having only opted for the GPS shifting..... 
Apr 30, 2013 10:27:33 AM
- easy_rider911
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
I would keep the front axle lifting system for speed humps, entry/exit to car parks etc.
I would keep cruise control ... it's handy for long drives to get to track days/circuits etc.
Cosmetic stuff is purely subjective.
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Apr 30, 2013 11:12:19 AM
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RC
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Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)
easy_rider911:
I would keep the front axle lifting system for speed humps, entry/exit to car parks etc.
I would keep cruise control ... it's handy for long drives to get to track days/circuits etc.
Cosmetic stuff is purely subjective.
Front lift is a must...you never know when you need it.
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