Crown
Board: Porsche
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
Close
CloseForum - Thread
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
http://www.excellence-mag.com/art2/art2p1.html
The new 997 GT3 R's do not have ABS brakes.
Anyone have a clue as to why they did that?
I know the racing version of the 997GT3RS has no ABS either (just cockpit adjustable bias control). I thought it was because that class of racing prohibits ABS...
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
The 997 Supercup model was the first one without ABS - due to the fact that several teams use this car in endurance racing, where this feature is not allowed.
As a little sidenote, the PCCB system is not allowed so far as well - they have to switch to standard steel discs if they use the car somewhere else than the Porsche Cups!
As a little sidenote, the PCCB system is not allowed so far as well - they have to switch to standard steel discs if they use the car somewhere else than the Porsche Cups!
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Well, if it's not for rules compliance, that must mean there's a performance advantage to going without ABS. Maybe there's better pedal feel without the intervening ABS pump and/or you can control the car better with the bias control. It might allow you to rotate the car better at corner entry to get a little rear locking. My track car has no ABS and I generally don't miss it...
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Quote:
Ferdie said:
The 997 Supercup model was the first one without ABS - due to the fact that several teams use this car in endurance racing, where this feature is not allowed.
As a little sidenote, the PCCB system is not allowed so far as well - they have to switch to standard steel discs if they use the car somewhere else than the Porsche Cups!
That makes sense...
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
I wonder if it is a safety issue!
ABS works fine on dry paved surfaces and on paved surfaces with rain.
But, if the car spins off/is forced off into the infield/side areas onto dirt or grass, the ABS system
might not work intelligently on rough surfaces.
From the Australian Government regarding ABS on loose surfaces..
"But if the surface is loose gravel, the ABS system will tend to release the brakes very early, and although steering control may be well maintained, braking itself will be very weak," says spokesperson Colin Brown. "On extremely loose surfaces, stopping power may be very much reduced." (http://www.mvria.nsw.gov.au/media/med_sto_brakes.htm
So if you were forced off the pavement, you could have a rather useless brake system with ABS. You might feel it pulsing through the pedal, you might think it is working, but actually it is not. So you might not have time to react
as needed.
With non abs brakes you would get a True feedback through the brake pedal, with ABS you would get false pedal feedback.
ABS works fine on dry paved surfaces and on paved surfaces with rain.
But, if the car spins off/is forced off into the infield/side areas onto dirt or grass, the ABS system
might not work intelligently on rough surfaces.
From the Australian Government regarding ABS on loose surfaces..
"But if the surface is loose gravel, the ABS system will tend to release the brakes very early, and although steering control may be well maintained, braking itself will be very weak," says spokesperson Colin Brown. "On extremely loose surfaces, stopping power may be very much reduced." (http://www.mvria.nsw.gov.au/media/med_sto_brakes.htm
So if you were forced off the pavement, you could have a rather useless brake system with ABS. You might feel it pulsing through the pedal, you might think it is working, but actually it is not. So you might not have time to react
as needed.
With non abs brakes you would get a True feedback through the brake pedal, with ABS you would get false pedal feedback.
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Grant, I wonder if this is what contributed to Bens crash?
Think about this. To avoid hitting that Ferrari, He first braked on the paved track to slow down - the skid marks were there - but he still had to swerve OFF the track to not make contact - so he did. And as his car is going across the grass, he likely tried using the brakes the same way he did ON the track - and the ABS simply did not grab on the loose grass surface the same way a NON ABS system would - but in the ABS pedal feel there was no hint to that-and in any case, even if he had tried to modulate the brake pedal with a non ABS technique, the ABS system would not have responded to that anyway!
Regretfully, I suspect it was the CGTs ABS brakes that may have doomed Bens car. If the CGT had non ABS brakes, he would have had a better chance to slow the car down once it went off the track.
And I also now wonder if anywhere in the CGT manual that it warns about off track/loose surface braking hazard with ABS?
Think about this. To avoid hitting that Ferrari, He first braked on the paved track to slow down - the skid marks were there - but he still had to swerve OFF the track to not make contact - so he did. And as his car is going across the grass, he likely tried using the brakes the same way he did ON the track - and the ABS simply did not grab on the loose grass surface the same way a NON ABS system would - but in the ABS pedal feel there was no hint to that-and in any case, even if he had tried to modulate the brake pedal with a non ABS technique, the ABS system would not have responded to that anyway!
Regretfully, I suspect it was the CGTs ABS brakes that may have doomed Bens car. If the CGT had non ABS brakes, he would have had a better chance to slow the car down once it went off the track.
And I also now wonder if anywhere in the CGT manual that it warns about off track/loose surface braking hazard with ABS?
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
It's hard to say. Maybe with non-ABS, the locked wheels would've dug into the grass and grabbed too much and caused the car to roll violently (like catching an edge skiing). I guess the result couldn't have been any worse, but it may not have been any better either...
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Quote:
Grant said:
I wonder if ABS is outlawed in some race classes due to the lobbying of the tire makers (lots of flat spots mean lots of tire sales)
Same as in formula 1: abs is outlawed because locking the brakes allow other drivers to overtake, and that gives better races.It's much harder to overtake if abs is allowed.
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Quote:
Grant said:
Yeah, the first Audis with ABS had a dashboard switch to disable it, since it made braking distances much longer on dirt roads or roads with deep/wet snow....
Yup- my 1986 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro had a dash switch that could turn off the ABS. It came in handy the time the car WOULDN"T STOP in a snowstorm on the Eisenhauer Expressway when several cars in front of me started spinning out. . I hit the switch and with ABS off, the tires created a nice wedge of snow pebbles that slowed and stopped the car just in time. 1984-86 was the era of the first gen fairly crude performing and feeling ABS systems.There were even concerns from MBZ liabilty attorneys that their first US ABS cars would lead to such quick stops in rain that owners of cars that hit them from behind might sue them !
Mar 21, 2006 3:16:46 AM
-
911digital
- Veteran
-
- Loc: Staffordshire , United Kingdom
- Posts: 833, Gallery
- Registered on: Dec 2, 2005
- Reply to: JimFlat6
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
after driving cars with no abs and now my vr6 has abs, i'll probibly never drive a non abs car, the streets are just far to dangerous not to have abs!
my father nearly hit a car because his brakes locked!
obviously that doesnt happen with abs!
my mate brought a ford sierra dvd i think duke make them, and its got the cosworths on it, but its also got the development of the sierra... and whats really interesting is when they show you the car stopping with one side on ice and the other side on wet tarmac. the abs was quite an eye opener!
the car stops in a straight line! i was expecting it to slightly spin to one side, as in the cars going forwards but diagnolly and may be not in a straight line!
my father nearly hit a car because his brakes locked!
obviously that doesnt happen with abs!
my mate brought a ford sierra dvd i think duke make them, and its got the cosworths on it, but its also got the development of the sierra... and whats really interesting is when they show you the car stopping with one side on ice and the other side on wet tarmac. the abs was quite an eye opener!
the car stops in a straight line! i was expecting it to slightly spin to one side, as in the cars going forwards but diagnolly and may be not in a straight line!
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
The reason Porsche skipped the ABS on the Cupcar is due to the above mentioned reason. I don't have a doubt that they would like to use this feature but obviously enough people didn't want ABS-equipped brakesystems in endurance racing. Just based on my limited knowledge about that scene, don't take this reason for granted.
I do know that a lot of 2005 Cupcars are used in endurance racing - they were allowed to be used after the Supercup season. In Daytona just as much as on the Nürburgring - from what I've heard the 997 hasn't met the durability that the 996 models had in the recent years - no wonder, since it's a brand new development. On the Daytona distance the new sequential gearbox seemed to be the weakest part.
If you are an intelligent driver and are 100% up to the tastk - which you cannot be all of the time - you might be able to drive just as well without ABS.
I certainly would chose ABS as an option, though I tend to believe that ESP has made a much bigger impact regarding active safety!
I have used ABS brakes on gravel and dirty roads as well and the deceleration is still sufficient - apart from that most of us drive on tarmac roads.
I do know that a lot of 2005 Cupcars are used in endurance racing - they were allowed to be used after the Supercup season. In Daytona just as much as on the Nürburgring - from what I've heard the 997 hasn't met the durability that the 996 models had in the recent years - no wonder, since it's a brand new development. On the Daytona distance the new sequential gearbox seemed to be the weakest part.
If you are an intelligent driver and are 100% up to the tastk - which you cannot be all of the time - you might be able to drive just as well without ABS.
I certainly would chose ABS as an option, though I tend to believe that ESP has made a much bigger impact regarding active safety!
I have used ABS brakes on gravel and dirty roads as well and the deceleration is still sufficient - apart from that most of us drive on tarmac roads.
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
True, the only problem on the race-track might occur when the system brakes down.
I have found some very nice footage of Japan's BMI magazine about the 997 Carrera, e.g. comparing the brake performance with the NSX, 360 or 350Z. Very nice to watch!
I can hand in the link later.
I have found some very nice footage of Japan's BMI magazine about the 997 Carrera, e.g. comparing the brake performance with the NSX, 360 or 350Z. Very nice to watch!
I can hand in the link later.
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Grant, I wonder if this is what contributed to Bens crash?
Think about this. To avoid hitting that Ferrari, He first braked on the paved track to slow down - the skid marks were there - but he still had to swerve OFF the track to not make contact - so he did. And as his car is going across the grass, he likely tried using the brakes the same way he did ON the track - and the ABS simply did not grab on the loose grass surface the same way a NON ABS system would - but in the ABS pedal feel there was no hint to that-and in any case, even if he had tried to modulate the brake pedal with a non ABS technique, the ABS system would not have responded to that anyway!
Regretfully, I suspect it was the CGTs ABS brakes that may have doomed Bens car. If the CGT had non ABS brakes, he would have had a better chance to slow the car down once it went off the track.
And I also now wonder if anywhere in the CGT manual that it warns about off track/loose surface braking hazard with ABS?
Huh??
With or with out ABS, that GT was doomed when he left the track at over 120 MPH and hit a solid object.
Re: No ABS for 997 GT3R's
Quote:
strawman said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Grant, I wonder if this is what contributed to Bens crash?
Think about this. To avoid hitting that Ferrari, He first braked on the paved track to slow down - the skid marks were there - but he still had to swerve OFF the track to not make contact - so he did. And as his car is going across the grass, he likely tried using the brakes the same way he did ON the track - and the ABS simply did not grab on the loose grass surface the same way a NON ABS system would - but in the ABS pedal feel there was no hint to that-and in any case, even if he had tried to modulate the brake pedal with a non ABS technique, the ABS system would not have responded to that anyway!
Regretfully, I suspect it was the CGTs ABS brakes that may have doomed Bens car. If the CGT had non ABS brakes, he would have had a better chance to slow the car down once it went off the track.
And I also now wonder if anywhere in the CGT manual that it warns about off track/loose surface braking hazard with ABS?
Huh??
Had the brakes locked up, he may have hit the object with much less speed.
Forum
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
