Crown

off topic: Have fun Leawood! should be a nice roadtrip! 

No doubt  cars reflect our personalities over time.  My first Porsche was a new 1966 912,  I was a young married guy with no children and loved feeling unique and cool in a world of Corvettes and other muscle cars.  i kept the car for three years, then bought a 1969 911S which I modified extensively.  Then after that i owned a series of faster and faster Porsches (904GTS, modified 1976 Turbo Carrera, and on and on--everyone faster than the next.  i had to have the fastest car around, and remember occasions where i ran at 180mph on expressways.  Sedans were for country club types.

And now, at 70, what do I want?  Power and elegance (that word RC hates).  I drive a 2009 Cayenne Turbo S as a daily driver ( I have young kids by a second marriage), and it has been perfect for me.  Except, fickle as i am, I long for a powerful and elegant Panamera.  I am getting tired of the bulk of the Cayenne, and want something sleeker and more refined.  I have lost my desire for a 911 model of any kind--too uncomfortable, tight and unable to carry more than a minor payload.

So, like another old adage, I have become what I hated.  So, RC, beware the future...

I should add that, over the years and over 16 Porsches later, what car do I love and appreciate the most?  My 1961 356 Super 90 Roadster.  Go figure...Guess at heart--deep down, I am an incorrigible romantic...

I hear you brother.

What a beautiful car! My father had the exact same car, except it was blue and had both a white removable hard top and the black canvas one. That is the first Porsche that I remember as a child and it has a very special place in my heart.

 beautiful Wonderbar! Well, it's never too late!

Beautiful  , Wonderbar you should get yourself another 356

911 Club Coupe, 993 4S Riviera Blau, 12' Audi S4 Avant

CPA4S:

as all the journalists and testors say the GTS is THE Panamera if you are trying to get the sport out of the sport sedan. it isn't the fastest, but it is the most fun.

This is where I think that Porsche somehow got development and marketing a little bit wrong.
If my Panamera Turbo S would feel and sound like the Panamera GTS, I would have much less to complaint.

I really love my Cayenne GTS but I wish it had the power of the Turbo S. Porsche kind of makes weird marketing decisions, the Turbo S should actually be THE sportiest model, incl. power but apparently it is the most powerful but not the sportiest. I'm afraid I cannot follow this logic, especially on a brand like Porsche.

I get it...they make the GTS models for marketing purposes and because they sell well since they are much cheaper than their Turbo/Turbo S counterparts but I don't understand why Porsche doesn't offer at least an option to order the Turbo/Turbo S models with a GTS package. Weird.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Wonderbar:

No doubt  cars reflect our personalities over time.  My first Porsche was a new 1966 912,  I was a young married guy with no children and loved feeling unique and cool in a world of Corvettes and other muscle cars.  i kept the car for three years, then bought a 1969 911S which I modified extensively.  Then after that i owned a series of faster and faster Porsches (904GTS, modified 1976 Turbo Carrera, and on and on--everyone faster than the next.  i had to have the fastest car around, and remember occasions where i ran at 180mph on expressways.  Sedans were for country club types.

And now, at 70, what do I want?  Power and elegance (that word RC hates).  I drive a 2009 Cayenne Turbo S as a daily driver ( I have young kids by a second marriage), and it has been perfect for me.  Except, fickle as i am, I long for a powerful and elegant Panamera.  I am getting tired of the bulk of the Cayenne, and want something sleeker and more refined.  I have lost my desire for a 911 model of any kind--too uncomfortable, tight and unable to carry more than a minor payload.

So, like another old adage, I have become what I hated.  So, RC, beware the future...

I am aware of the future...this is why I mentioned the age, no offense meant, please don't misunderstand me.

I should add that, over the years and over 16 Porsches later, what car do I love and appreciate the most?  My 1961 356 Super 90 Roadster.  Go figure...Guess at heart--deep down, I am an incorrigible romantic...

I am different. I never really missed my old cars, I love new stuff. The only steady thing in my life is my family, everything else is exchangeable, I also do not name my cars or pet them. 

For me, a car is a toy. This is why I hate driving low powered cars, I barely use the Mini Countryman, even if it would be the more intelligent choice (fuel consumption) driving to work. Many have a 911 in their garage but drive in a Hyundai to work. I could NEVER do that because cars aren't something rational for me. Unfortunately (cost).

The Cayenne GTS is actually the perfect combo of a toy and a tool but I have to admit that I sometimes miss the power of a Turbo S. Not very often though since I drive this car mainly in the city and the sound actually compensates me for the lack of superior power.

Getting rid of the Panamera Turbo S would be easy, my dealer made me an offer to get a 991 GT3 instead but throwing money out of the window isn't really my thing (anymore) since this offer isn't really good, so I will stick to the Panamera until I get a better offer or until the lease runs out. Maybe I have been spoiled by some fantastic lease offers in the past but I really don't want to spend again money on a car. If the 991 GT3 would have optional two seats in the rear, the decision would have already been taken. I am waiting now for the 991 Turbo, maybe this car will change my mind. I don't want to order one blindly since there is no accurate information available about the exhaust/engine sound of the new 991 Turbo. If Porsche didn't improve the sound, I would rather go with the GT3...or the GT3 RS for that matter. I guess I finally found back my mojo...I just realized that life can be short and when I'm older, I will be forced by circumstances to drive something different. I should enjoy driving a 911 while I can. 

I didn't mean to spoil anyone's excitement with the Panamera but if someone doesn't need the extra room and trunk space, the 911 is the better (sportier) choice. Unless of course someone wants comfort and elegance explicitly. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

The target group that wants a sporty Panamera/Cayenne probably doesn't have the money to afford a Turbo. So the GTS is a good solution for them. At the same time peope that can afford a Turbo are older and want a bit more comfort.

I'm sure the average age of a (911/Cayenne/Pana) Turbo owner is higher than owners of the normal versions.

2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2

993Targa:

The target group that wants a sporty Panamera/Cayenne probably doesn't have the money to afford a Turbo. So the GTS is a good solution for them. At the same time peope that can afford a Turbo are older and want a bit more comfort.

I'm sure the average age of a (911/Cayenne/Pana) Turbo owner is higher than owners of the normal versions.

I'm afraid you are right. This doesn't mean Porsche shouldn't recognize an opportunity to offer sportier setups for their "top" models. What was the internal designation for the Turbo again? TOP. Top without proper sportiness isn't top for me. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Facelifted Panamera: caught on making a movie

I don't get it....Why Porsche uses Mercedes instead of Cayenne?

sorry but when your best trait is a  top line speed that is virtually unusable in 99% of the driving situations, i really think you have to market to the wallets that are very deep and the desire that is satisfied through status and being on top of the model heap. there will be those who buy it for the engine - but you do not make your money off them.

am i right? i suggest one just go look at the mileage on many used turbo's of any version - you can find cars that are a year and half old with 3k km and things like that. these top end turbo's do not need to be designed to marry the performance with the "sport" that you are missing RC

. the buyer does not care - they "have" a turbo, more than they drive a turbo and that imo that  sums up the sweet spot of that product line.

2012 991 C2S -PDK / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold / 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual /2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold

CPA4S:

. the buyer does not care - they "have" a turbo, more than they drive a turbo and that imo that  sums up the sweet spot of that product line.

I agree, many buyers may not care but I do and I know a couple of other buyers who care.

I remember that back in 2000, after I got my first 911 Turbo, the car was in very high demand all over the world. At some point, the GT2 was offered and many former 911 Turbo buyers got one because they weren't too happy with the lack of sportiness of the 911 Turbo. I heavily modified my car (adjustable chassis, sway bars, engine, exhaust, oil cooler for gearbox, single mass flywheel, sport clutch, etc.) because it was too tame for me but I wanted the AWD and the rear seats too, so the GT2 was no alternative for me. Eventually many GT2 switchers sold their car because it could not replace the 911 Turbo (AWD, rear seat room, daily driver capabilities) or because it was a challenge to drive for them but I never understood why Porsche doesn't offer something for everyone.

Building a 911 Turbo with GT3 "genes" shouldn't be a problem but all Porsche offers is an Aerokit. Seriously?!

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Looking at FL Panamera pictures I am more and more happy with the new design.

The weakest perspective of the Panamera.1 is the side view.

With the re-design, the bulky heaviness of the rear is gone, the roofline is more graceful, the front looks more in harmony with the rear. Moreover,  the "stretched limousine" look of the original has been successfully disguised.

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Looking at FL Panamera pictures I am more and more happy with the new design.

Same here.

I haven't seen the facelift in real so far, but judging from the pictures I'd say it's a big improvement over the first version.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

SportCarGroup:

I don't get it....Why Porsche uses Mercedes instead of Cayenne?

The company that operates that special gyro camera has a contract with Mercedes Benz and all their cameras are mounted on them...

2011 Porsche Carrera 4S Platinum Silver (sold)
2013 Porsche Panamera GTS Basalt Black

2013 Porsche Carrera S GT Silver

“The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively” 
― Bob Marley

CPA4S:

but these pictures are doctored - they have made it look lower and wider , they changed the lighting and the placement-you cannot in fairness compare them --------- Porsche should be reemed for this bs.

 do the same photo shop on the non FL car and the differences will be a much harder sell.

You realize that these pictures were never presented side-by-side by Porsche? They are from two completely different photo shoots done at different times. Porsche obviouisly changed the angle from which they took the photos as they thought it looked better that way. They never presented these shots as a side-by-side comparison. There was no intent to decieve.

amjf088:

CPA4S:

but these pictures are doctored - they have made it look lower and wider , they changed the lighting and the placement-you cannot in fairness compare them --------- Porsche should be reemed for this bs.

 do the same photo shop on the non FL car and the differences will be a much harder sell.

You realize that these pictures were never presented side-by-side by Porsche? They are from two completely different photo shoots done at different times. Porsche obviouisly changed the angle from which they took the photos as they thought it looked better that way. They never presented these shots as a side-by-side comparison. There was no intent to decieve.

yes they were in the internal documents whch they bl@@dy well knew would get out

2012 991 C2S -PDK / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold / 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual /2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold

RC:

CPA4S:

. the buyer does not care - they "have" a turbo, more than they drive a turbo and that imo that  sums up the sweet spot of that product line.

I agree, many buyers may not care but I do and I know a couple of other buyers who care.

I remember that back in 2000, after I got my first 911 Turbo, the car was in very high demand all over the world. At some point, the GT2 was offered and many former 911 Turbo buyers got one because they weren't too happy with the lack of sportiness of the 911 Turbo. I heavily modified my car (adjustable chassis, sway bars, engine, exhaust, oil cooler for gearbox, single mass flywheel, sport clutch, etc.) because it was too tame for me but I wanted the AWD and the rear seats too, so the GT2 was no alternative for me. Eventually many GT2 switchers sold their car because it could not replace the 911 Turbo (AWD, rear seat room, daily driver capabilities) or because it was a challenge to drive for them but I never understood why Porsche doesn't offer something for everyone.

Building a 911 Turbo with GT3 "genes" shouldn't be a problem but all Porsche offers is an Aerokit. Seriously?!

RC - the money is not in a "sport" turbo, let those who want a sportier turbo do their own work on the car - that philosphy is OK - this company has to make money or all the customers lose out.

anyway, i think you are right in that the PGTS kind of lacks the clearance to really take on winter. nonetheless, i will either have a GTS and no other p cars for a while or my stick CGTS, no 991 and an Evora S.

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2012 991 C2S -PDK / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold / 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual /2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold

I used the Panamera Turbo S for a ski trip in January and while the biggest problem was actually luggage room, ground clearance was OK but I also have to admit that the snow conditions weren't very good.

We did our second ski trip in the Cayenne GTS and everybody was much happier. My kids had more room (the PTS was packed, even in the interior) and at some point, the snow was so high on the Autobahn that I was the only car around shortly before we arrived to our ski resort. There, the only parking lot I found was one completely covered with lots of snow, so I had to rise the suspension to be able to park there. Bottom line is: With the PTS, I would have run into a lot of trouble on our second ski trip, so I'm really glad we got the Cayenne.

I think it was wishful thinking to believe that an AWD sedan can replace a sports car and a SUV, lesson learned now. The Panamera is very likely my last sedan.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

I think it was wishful thinking to believe that an AWD sedan can replace a sports car and a SUV, lesson learned now. The Panamera is very likely my last sedan.

right now i have a sports car and an SUV so the question is will i learn from your lesson or go down the same tracks? 

i was really hoping i could finally find one car that would do almost everything, probably a pipe dream

2012 991 C2S -PDK / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold / 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual /2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold

My wife is actually in the same boat: When she returned her M3 Cab to the lease company, she told me that she would never get a Cab again because she needs a lot of luggage room and room for the kids and their friends and so on. Now, after she has a X3 35d for a couple of months, she started missing her M3 Cab. Actually, she misses her old Boxster S a lot, this car was the one she had most fun with according to her.

We had a good car "setup" a couple of years ago: 997 Turbo RUF 550, Boxster S and Cayenne Turbo S. I just realized that this setup was perfect for us. When my wife needed more luggage room/passenger space, she was driving the Cayenne and I was driving the Boxster. The Boxster never was a problem at my business, everybody knows that the Boxster is the "cheap" Porsche and while a customer once asked me why I drive a woman's Porsche, I never actually cared because the Boxster was fun to drive. The 997 Turbo was there for weekend fun but it is only now that I realize how much fun this car was and how much I miss it. This car was so powerful, 0-200 kph in 10.6 seconds, 0-300 kph in slightly over 27 seconds (this is 918 territory) and all this with a Tiptronic, it was really amazing to drive and traction, even with that power, was never an issue.

Bottom line is: We are going to try to "fix" this in a way or another, so maybe my wife's next car will be a Boxster, I keep the Cayenne GTS (for now, until the lease runs out) and I am getting a 991 GT3/RS or 991 Turbo. Of course now I have to wait at least two to three years to do that but I am very confident that this is the right car "setup" for our famliy.

Of course this means we are going to have another garage queen in the garage but for daily driving, the Boxster S and the Cayenne GTS (or Turbo/Turbo S later on) aren't too shabby either.

Please don't get me wrong: I really love the Panamera Turbo S and I would keep it if I could afford it but I just realized that I'm not a sedan type of guy. I could imagine however getting a Panamera Coupe if the weight/performance ratio is right and if it feels sportier than the PTS.
The PTS is a car with two faces (when you drive straight, it feels like a Rolls Royce, comfy, detached drive feel, incl. steering but as soon as you enter some curves pretty hard, it switches to the "911" mode) and while some owners may love this setup, I hate it. Actually the PTS kind of "forces" to drive it hard to be able to enjoy some driving fun because otherwise it feels as if I am driving a Rolls. Not my cup of tea I'm afraid and I don't know why I didn't see this coming. I don't need comfort, I need fun and I need to feel the sportiness. Of course it is kind of weird to speak of sportiness in a 2+ tons car but I think that Porsche should have chosen a slightly different setup for their Panamera top model, especially regarding the steering.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Here's some latest video's of Panamera Facelift:

Thanks SPG for these videos.

IMHO these are boring, uncreative marketing efforts.  Repetitive beautiful scenery, cars gracefully rounding curves, "inspiring" music.  I guess I am supposed to feel exclusive and tempted.  But give me something crazier, more eccentric, more informative about changes to the FL...

OTOH these videos give the opportunity to view the car from many different angles and perspectives in order to form an opinion prior to real life viewing. They are not adverising/promotional in the strict sense. White and silver look very good on the FL.  The original was nice in white but not good in silver.

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"Form follows function"

The Panamera Executive (LWB model) will not be sold in Europe. I cannot see the reason behind this when all other manufacturers offer their top models in the Long version!

"Form follows function"

reginos:

The Panamera Executive (LWB model) will not be sold in Europe. I cannot see the reason behind this when all other manufacturers offer their top models in the Long version!

Actually it will. Just check Porsche.de