Crown

@Wonderbar - I share many of the same opinions and observations as you do on the current Porsche portfolio.

I too am very sorry to hear the news on the 960. For me it has become an "essential" car for the future of Porsche (The sports-car company that is). I say this not in immediate financial and sales terms,but rather in both sporting and design terms.

Sporting Terms: The 911 starts from a disadvantaged base line in comparison to the Ferrari models (due to rear engine placement). It even is at a disadvantage in comparison to the Corvettes (as they are really front-mid engined cars )and BMW's (which are often allowed to move the engine into a mid-forward engine position). This means that the 911 will have to rely more and more on performance breaks (granted by the ACO/FiA) in order to remain competitive in the GTE classes. A sorry state of affairs for any Porsche motorsport fan to have to endure. The 911 is also limited in its engine size (displacement and number of cylinders) both by physical and marketing factors. The opposition; not so much

Design Terms: The 918 is really a showcase car. It does not fill the place of a mid-engined car in the current product portfolio. It is more like an appendix. The 960 would act as a "liberating factor" in terms of Porsche design, and if handled and marketed correctly, could have the potential to eventually eclipse the 911 in both sales and prestige. It would take time, dedication, brains, imagination and luck, but a new icon could be created.

Personally, I think a "sports-car"company needs to be looking more in the 960's direction, and less in the direction of a McCann (for example), but then again, I'm just a fan. I would love to see Porsche reclaim its status as a "sports-car"company, and not a manufacturer of "sporty"cars. I doubt however, that I will see this again.

Why should Porsche create a new icon if the 911 serves this purpose perfectly? Remember the 928? It almost killed the 911 and Porsche would have been probably done afterwards.

The 911 shape still has a lot of potential and the technology under the shape shouldn't be a problem either.

Right now, I think that a Panamera Coupe makes more sense for Porsche, even a Pajun (smaller 4-door sedan) isn't as important as a sporty two door classic Coupe with more rear room and a real trunk. Porsche may wait until the next Panamera generation shows up or they could actually introduce the new Coupe based on the next Panamera generation before the sedan.

How many customers would Porsche actually gain with the 960? This is actually R8 and Gallardo territory, which brings us to the next point: Not sure how much Volkswagen wants to cannibalize the R8 and Gallardo market with another (Porsche made) contender.

I can see why Porsche wouldn't be sure to build the 960.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

Why should Porsche create a new icon if the 911 serves this purpose perfectly? Remember the 928? It almost killed the 911 and Porsche would have been probably done afterwards.

With all due respect RC; There was no way in hell that the 928 was EVER going to take the place of the 911. It was a front engined car that had close to zero motorsport potential. I was an ardent Porsche fan in the days for the 928 , and it was always seen as a Porsche for the American market (by serious European Porsche fans and customers). 

The 911 shape still has a lot of potential and the technology under the shape shouldn't be a problem either.

It is becoming a little out dated in the eyes of many, and the question is will it be able to attract a new customer base in the future?

Right now, I think that a Panamera Coupe makes more sense for Porsche, even a Pajun (smaller 4-door sedan) isn't as important as a sporty two door classic Coupe with more rear room and a real trunk. Porsche may wait until the next Panamera generation shows up or they could actually introduce the new Coupe based on the next Panamera generation before the sedan.

I have nothing against Porsche producing this type of car. I just don't think it should be their main focus (which I get the feeling it is more and more with each passing day. It's the balance sheet that is talking very loudly indeed!)

How many customers would Porsche actually gain with the 960? This is actually R8 and Gallardo territory, which brings us to the next point: Not sure how much Volkswagen wants to cannibalize the R8 and Gallardo market with another (Porsche made) contender.

VW does not seem to have an issue with the Audi "canabilizing"the Porsche  so called "sports-car"market.

I can see why Porsche wouldn't be sure to build the 960.

I'm sure you can. I on the other hand, wish they would.

Regarding the Macan, it could really be a "cash cow" to enable Porsche to fund its higher end designs.  BMW just became the best selling luxury car brand in the world due to 3 series and new X1 sales...

Good stuff! Nice analysis by all. I too am sorry that the 960 will not come to fruition. But as Wonderbar so aptly pointed out there are just too many models now. VW is starting to look like the old GM.

Regarding the passion issue, Porsche never was about styling but rather performance. It is hard to get the public whipped into a frenzy when you highlight dry sump and other mundane technological improvements. AND therein lies a huge problem for Porsche. With significant improvements in speed monitoring, noise pollution and reduction in track participation Porsche hallmark of engineering performance may have run its course from a marketing standpoint.

I know looks are subjective but to me the 918 looks like any other race car styled for function whereas the LaFerrari and P1 are form and function. The 918 would disappear if it was parked alongside the P1 and LaFerrari.

--

Hmm, German, emotions? 

Germans are known as the technical bunch, everything is efficient and clinical, nothing wasted. Didn't know they can do things any other way. So the GT3 presentation fits perfectly with the expectations.

Italians are known to be emotion driven with a bunch of flares, so the LaFerrari again fits perfectly to the expectation.

Not sure the British has a equivalent stereotype. Eccentric maybe?

The way McLaren is run, it could well be a German company, everything is clinical and efficient, but at least it mixed it a bit of emotions.

nberry:

Good stuff! Nice analysis by all. I too am sorry that the 960 will not come to fruition. But as Wonderbar so aptly pointed out there are just too many models now. VW is starting to look like the old GM.

Regarding the passion issue, Porsche never was about styling but rather performance. It is hard to get the public whipped into a frenzy when you highlight dry sump and other mundane technological improvements. AND therein lies a huge problem for Porsche. With significant improvements in speed monitoring, noise pollution and reduction in track participation Porsche hallmark of engineering performance may have run its course from a marketing standpoint.

I know looks are subjective but to me the 918 looks like any other race car styled for function whereas the LaFerrari and P1 are form and function. The 918 would disappear if it was parked alongside the P1 and LaFerrari.

  

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918 will be the best one

sportcars-history.com

The Alfa Romeo 4C hasn't been mentioned yet.  It's worth one. 

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

About the 960, I hope I did not give the impression that it is dead in the water.  I was surprised, however, that my sources were very vague and non-committal about the car--not what I had expected to hear especially after the press leaks and the media buzz.  The car could still get the go ahead, which I would like to see happen for reasons I stated earlier.

Wonderbar:

Regarding the Macan, it could really be a "cash cow" to enable Porsche to fund its higher end designs.  BMW just became the best selling luxury car brand in the world due to 3 series and new X1 sales...

 

 

It could (and if  it was what it really did, then many would turn a blind eye). However, the reality is that the "success" of the McCann would most likely spur a host of other weird cars with obscure Scots sounding names. 

The reason for my skepticism is a Porsche executive claimed the 991 Turbo would compete with the 458. So no need for a 960.

What he fails to understand is part of the attraction of the 960 mid engine configuration is the styling of the car would have to be far different than the 911. It would set the car apart of the evolutionary look of Porsche's. Many of us would like to own a reasonably priced Porsche sport car that does not look like one made in the 60's as they all do.

I agree with you, Nick, that a 960 would be a welcome design addition to the Porsche model range.  I also agree that the 960 should go forward even though the 991 Turbo may be equal or even exceed the 458.  The latter's design is just so much cleaner and more attractive; the Turbo design has gathered too many scoops and spoilers and bulges to have a clean, integrated design appeal.

But I still admire the 911 shape that underpins the basic Carrera, and which appears in different forms in other Porsche models (sloping roof line, interior spaciousness (comparatively speaking), front fenders rising above the front deck, etc.  Michael Mauer made this point to me recently when he said that the 911 design is like a cat with nine lives--it reappears in the Panamera, the Cayenne, Cayman and Boxster.  I can vouch for this connection, having owned a 904GTS for many years--I swear I can see its design living on in the Cayman, for example.

There is something reassuring about Porsche design, that may be absent in a Ferrari or other more "exciting" designs.  When I saw the 458 next to the F12 Berlinetta at the Geneva show, the 458 somehow looked "old".  My good friend, who was with me and who owns a 458 Spyder, told me he is tired of his car after barely two years of ownership.  And I had a fascinating conversation with one of the McLaren P1 designers who told me his all time favorite automotive design was the 550 Spyder.  None of this is clear proof of Porsche's design success, but it is certainly worth thinking about.  

And Porsche does have other non-911 models like the Cayenne, Panamera and Boxster.  There are no such offerings from Ferrari (though you might count the--I think unattractive--FF as a four passenger sedan).  Porsche offers a wide range of choices depending on your practical needs and sporting passions.

So I guess I conclude that I would like the 960 as an extra niche Porsche, not one that wholly replaces the 911 and its rather enduring design.

Porsche made a mistake of pricing 918 too high and will have a hard time fulfilling their orders.

In order to pass the enormous development cost of 3 engined+hybrid+4wd+4ws to customers, Porsche in a way is swindling their customers.

If there is one car I am waiting from Porsche, it is 960.  

Panamera Coupe would make most sense financially, but 928 route had proved to be a failure.  So, I propose another solution to Porsche.

"GT1 at the half the price of 918"

Based on 911 GT3RS/GT2RS & 918 parts, Porsche can design a sports car that is spectacular in design as well as aerodynamics.

At around the same price of a F12, this car will satisfy the enthusiasts and will be able to beat most of the competitors.

With the reincarnation of the GT1 name and applying this car to motor sports activity with minimal changes from the road car, this car will sell like hot-cakes.

How about giving me one of the very first production car for my idea, if this realizes, Porsche? 

IMO the clienteles of Porsche and Ferrari are totally different in terms of taste and expectations. The owners' profiles are different with the exception of a small % of individuals who can afford to own several expensive cars.. So it would be wise for Porsche to carry on offering what they are good at and forget about challenging Ferrari.

The 960 if offered would have ended up most probably, in reality and buyer perception as a better and faster version of the R8, which would hardly excite people who buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Moreover, Porsche would not be able to sell their product at Ferrari prices (and make lots of money in the process) because unlike Ferrari, Porsche are not an exotic brand. With the Cayennes and the Macans, Porsche have been relegated to the upper premium segment and they cannot approach Ferrari's mystique even if the 960 were technically superior and faster than the 458. At least, the 991 Turbo will be a Ferrari alternative for the buyer who appreciates what the 911 has to offer in terms of real world performance and practicality,  rather than a Ferrari imitator.

The 911, in concept and execution (even the Carrera version)  has a very strong allure for a great number of people around the world, and this is Porsche's past present and future. In parallel, a GT front engined car in the 928 mould would have been a welcome addition to the Porsche range.

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"Form follows function"

reginos:

IMO the clienteles of Porsche and Ferrari are totally different in terms of taste and expectations. The owners' profiles are different with the exception of a small % of individuals who can afford to own several expensive cars.. So it would be wise for Porsche to carry on offering what they are good at and forget about challenging Ferrari.

The 960 if offered would have ended up most probably, in reality and buyer perception as a better and faster version of the R8, which would hardly excite people who buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Moreover, Porsche would not be able to sell their product at Ferrari prices (and make lots of money in the process) because unlike Ferrari, Porsche are not an exotic brand. With the Cayennes and the Macans, Porsche have been relegated to the upper premium segment and they cannot approach Ferrari's mystique even if the 960 were technically superior and faster than the 458. At least, the 991 Turbo will be a Ferrari alternative for the buyer who appreciates what the 911 has to offer in terms of real world performance and practicality,  rather than a Ferrari imitator.

The 911, in concept and execution (even the Carrera version)  has a very strong allure for a great number of people around the world, and this is Porsche's past present and future. In parallel, a GT front engined car in the 928 mould would have been a welcome addition to the Porsche range.

--

"Form follows function"

+10

Ferdie:

This is the comment of Daniel Simon about the Lamborghini Ve... Vo... Vhatever...

Lets take the magic of the name "Lamborghini" out of the equation and lets look at the 'Veneno' super car with neutral eyes, as you would find it in a design book. I find that a brand with such high value is responsible to promote sophistication to the public, and not encourage - or for that matter 'legalize' - outrageous surfacing to young designers.

Ferdie - I had to read that sentence 3 times and still didnt understand it 

Regarding the GT3 - of course it is the most adorable Porsche right now.... beautiful in any way. I guess I just would have loved to see some changes in the "GT3" styling to its precessor. Lets face it, they took the 997 GT3 and adapted spoilers and flaps to the new one - that's simply it. Isn't there a way to do it a bit different  ..... I know the answer.... there simply isnt 

Lars997:

Ferdie:

This is the comment of Daniel Simon about the Lamborghini Ve... Vo... Vhatever...

Lets take the magic of the name "Lamborghini" out of the equation and lets look at the 'Veneno' super car with neutral eyes, as you would find it in a design book. I find that a brand with such high value is responsible to promote sophistication to the public, and not encourage - or for that matter 'legalize' - outrageous surfacing to young designers.

Ferdie - I had to read that sentence 3 times and still didnt understand it 

It means, to put it simply, that the Veneno is rubbish styling-wise

"Form follows function"

You make valid points as does Reginos.

I guess from my perspective the 911 is like an old shoe which keeps getting resoled and always for the better. Time passes and it basically remains the same old shoe. After owning several, some like myself who value Porsche engineering would like a change. As a result, I cannot see myself buying a 991. Been there done that several times.

Thanks Reginos, Nick and all for an interesting discussion.  

Of course we are all amateur Porsche advisors and designers--any decision about the 960 will be a business decision, based on factors we can never truly evaluate or understand.  So with that understanding in mind, here are some more thoughts:

1.  Porsche has always competed against Ferrari, in racing as well as production cars.  Porsche's approach has been to offer a lower priced but more reliable and equally performing product.  The 997 Turbo S is a perfect example of a 458 competitive street product--considerably lower priced than than the 458 but virtually equal in performance (probably exceeding the 458 in straight line performance).  And certainly in racing, the two marques have and still compete intensively.

2.  But while the 458 and Turbos compete against each other, the Turbos have to adopt a more radical design transformation--wings, spoilers, extremely wide rear panels, etc.  Sort of an 911 add-on school of design, which makes the Porsche look "cobbled together", as opposed to the 458's "purer" and more integrated design.

3.  Reginos, to your point about Ferrari customers being unchangeably different from Porsche customers, you may be right.  And only a careful pre-production market analysis by Porsche could help answer that question.  But if i were asked on that survey, i would say that Ferraris are incredibly exclusive, very hard to purchase unless you are a long time customer with inside connection, and that a more accessible (and slightly cheaper) Porsche 458 alternative would be very tempting indeed. (On the Ferrari exclusivity point, I have a close friend who has owned no fewer than 12 new and recent Ferraris but finds it extremely difficult to get a Berlinetta due to the incredible competition for that car).  There could well be some frustrated Ferrari customer drift over to Porsche, in addition to high end Porsche customers who don't want the cost of a 918 but are looking for something more than virtual race ready Porsches like the GT2RS.  

4.  So should Porsche produce the 960, or stay with "what it does best"--producing fine and very desirable sport models within the current model "system"?  Only Porsche can evaluate the answer, but my marketing survey answr would be a resounding YES...

New 991 Turbo will beat 458 is every regard, only exception could be so called "feeling".

Regarding something like 960 most people here are forgetting that within one year time we will have two more competitors for 458/MP4-12C from VAG new Gallardo replacement and new Audi R8, both based on the same platform. Where would 960 fit then? See the problem?

If Porsche does finally do the big V8 coupe it needs to be completely independently developed from the Panamera. It has to be sort of like a 928 successor, which was the FASTEST production car at its launch beating all the supercars and with superb brutal performance and luxury... At the very least it needs to beat the F12 in every regard.

Seeing that we still have not seen a coupe based on the Panamera gives me hope that a independent development is more likely.

As for the baby Panamera, why the need for such a model? Calling it the cash cow? How many cash cows does one need... first it was the Cayenne, than Panamera. Heck, first it was the Boxster to save the brand back in the 90s. Anyways, I would way rather see a low production 960 than another mass market model.. The latter further dilutes the branch, while the 960 would do it well in terms of sports car imagine. Let's wait and see how this Macan is

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather (Canada)
1991 BMW 318i Brilliantrot/Black Leather (Germany)

Ex: '89 525i, '74 280E, '87 325is, '86 325e, '05 FF, '85.5 944

Spyderidol:

RC:

Why should Porsche create a new icon if the 911 serves this purpose perfectly? Remember the 928? It almost killed the 911 and Porsche would have been probably done afterwards.

With all due respect RC; There was no way in hell that the 928 was EVER going to take the place of the 911. It was a front engined car that had close to zero motorsport potential. I was an ardent Porsche fan in the days for the 928 , and it was always seen as a Porsche for the American market (by serious European Porsche fans and customers). 

The 911 shape still has a lot of potential and the technology under the shape shouldn't be a problem either.

It is becoming a little out dated in the eyes of many, and the question is will it be able to attract a new customer base in the future?

Right now, I think that a Panamera Coupe makes more sense for Porsche, even a Pajun (smaller 4-door sedan) isn't as important as a sporty two door classic Coupe with more rear room and a real trunk. Porsche may wait until the next Panamera generation shows up or they could actually introduce the new Coupe based on the next Panamera generation before the sedan.

I have nothing against Porsche producing this type of car. I just don't think it should be their main focus (which I get the feeling it is more and more with each passing day. It's the balance sheet that is talking very loudly indeed!)

How many customers would Porsche actually gain with the 960? This is actually R8 and Gallardo territory, which brings us to the next point: Not sure how much Volkswagen wants to cannibalize the R8 and Gallardo market with another (Porsche made) contender.

VW does not seem to have an issue with the Audi "canabilizing"the Porsche  so called "sports-car"market.

I can see why Porsche wouldn't be sure to build the 960.

I'm sure you can. I on the other hand, wish they would.

1. With all due respect...Porsche officially developed the 928 to replace the 911 and they almost abandoned 911 production, luckily demand rose in time before Porsche "pulled the plug". 

2. The 911 is not outdated...unless you never really liked one. If Porsche would change the shape, it wouldn't be a 911 anymore. Why slaughter a cow which still gives good milk?  I love the 911 shape and so do most 911 fans I know. If people get bored with the shape...well...maybe they never really were into the 911 in the first place. There is still a lot of potential, the 991 for example already has a "flatter" 911 shape.

3. Porsche earns money with the Cayenne, the Panamera and (hopefully) with the Macan in the future. Of course the other models are important too but only from a traditional point of view as a sports car manufacturer. Porsche could easily survive without selling the 911 but the question is: Would the Cayenne and Panamera survive then?  Porsche cannot afford to build an expensive sports car which doesn't sell and or doesn't sell well. First, this would be an image disaster and second, it would be financially a huge issue, with consequences especially for those who are responsible for the project.

4. VW changed the profile of Audi and Porsche but it takes time, new platforms, new models, etc. until it is really in effect. You will see the difference sooner or later, especially since Porsche is responsible for sports car development in the VW group.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

KresoF1:

New 991 Turbo will beat 458 is every regard, only exception could be so called "feeling".

 

The F 458 was presented in Frankfurt in 2009, so I guess the 991 Turbo will be the more technologically advanced and developed car. If Porsche has been using  as a benchmark a 458 in the last couple of years then we can really be pretty sure it will beat it on all accounts (except the emotional one which is more subjective and less measurable). My point is the 991 Turbo will be, when presented in Frankfurt  this year,  a 4 year younger project than the 458 therefore beating the 458 is a minimal target rather than a significant achievement.

911 Club Coupe, 993 4S Riviera Blau, 12' Audi S4 Avant

m4ever:

KresoF1:

New 991 Turbo will beat 458 is every regard, only exception could be so called "feeling".

The F 458 was presented in Frankfurt in 2009, so I guess the 991 Turbo will be the more technologically advanced and developed car. If Porsche has been using  as a benchmark a 458 in the last couple of years then we can really be pretty sure it will beat it on all accounts (except the emotional one which is more subjective and less measurable). My point is the 991 Turbo will be, when presented in Frankfurt  this year,  a 4 year younger project than the 458 therefore beating the 458 is a minimal target rather than a significant achievement.

My thoughts exactly, the newer car will always beat its older counterparts, at least it should do or something went wrong in its development.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Excellent points!

That said, sadly I believe we are beating a dead horse.

Also, to my knowledge the Gallardo and R8 has never come close to competing with the Ferrari mid engine sport car and FWIW the Gallardo styling is way over the top. The Ferrari styling is harmonious and modern.

...and of course the Turbo will have zero motorsport application, as current GT rules do not favor a turbo engined car.

RC:

Spyderidol:

RC:

Why should Porsche create a new icon if the 911 serves this purpose perfectly? Remember the 928? It almost killed the 911 and Porsche would have been probably done afterwards.

With all due respect RC; There was no way in hell that the 928 was EVER going to take the place of the 911. It was a front engined car that had close to zero motorsport potential. I was an ardent Porsche fan in the days for the 928 , and it was always seen as a Porsche for the American market (by serious European Porsche fans and customers). 

The 911 shape still has a lot of potential and the technology under the shape shouldn't be a problem either.

It is becoming a little out dated in the eyes of many, and the question is will it be able to attract a new customer base in the future?

Right now, I think that a Panamera Coupe makes more sense for Porsche, even a Pajun (smaller 4-door sedan) isn't as important as a sporty two door classic Coupe with more rear room and a real trunk. Porsche may wait until the next Panamera generation shows up or they could actually introduce the new Coupe based on the next Panamera generation before the sedan.

I have nothing against Porsche producing this type of car. I just don't think it should be their main focus (which I get the feeling it is more and more with each passing day. It's the balance sheet that is talking very loudly indeed!)

How many customers would Porsche actually gain with the 960? This is actually R8 and Gallardo territory, which brings us to the next point: Not sure how much Volkswagen wants to cannibalize the R8 and Gallardo market with another (Porsche made) contender.

VW does not seem to have an issue with the Audi "canabilizing"the Porsche  so called "sports-car"market.

I can see why Porsche wouldn't be sure to build the 960.

I'm sure you can. I on the other hand, wish they would.

 

1. With all due respect...Porsche officially developed the 928 to replace the 911 and they almost abandoned 911 production, luckily demand rose in time before Porsche "pulled the plug". 

2. The 911 is not outdated...unless you never really liked one. If Porsche would change the shape, it wouldn't be a 911 anymore. Why slaughter a cow which still gives good milk?  I love the 911 shape and so do most 911 fans I know. If people get bored with the shape...well...maybe they never really were into the 911 in the first place. There is still a lot of potential, the 991 for example already has a "flatter" 911 shape.

3. Porsche earns money with the Cayenne, the Panamera and (hopefully) with the Macan in the future. Of course the other models are important too but only from a traditional point of view as a sports car manufacturer. Porsche could easily survive without selling the 911 but the question is: Would the Cayenne and Panamera survive then?  Porsche cannot afford to build an expensive sports car which doesn't sell and or doesn't sell well. First, this would be an image disaster and second, it would be financially a huge issue, with consequences especially for those who are responsible for the project.

4. VW changed the profile of Audi and Porsche but it takes time, new platforms, new models, etc. until it is really in effect. You will see the difference sooner or later, especially since Porsche is responsible for sports car development in the VW group.

I obviously did not explain myself very well: The 928 may have been designed to substitute the 911,but in reality it was never going to succeed.

+1

I went 2 days ago...

The 2 cars I liked best were the GT3 (that ass is insane), and the RS6 even though it was presented in red with black wheels (who's gonna buy it in this color combo...).

The new Quattroporte is not looking good at all, the front lights are 2 small and the back looks anonymous now... that's really a shame, I loved the previous one !

The P1 looked a bit "plastic" to me, it's hard to explain but I'm not sure I like it... The LaFerrari looks like it was designed to be effective, not to look good (which is probably the truth). I found the Huayra much more desirable than these 2 !

The A45 AMG was presented in such a way that I would never want to buy one (black, white, red, seriously ?).

The ugliest car was probably the BMW 3 Series GT... pouark, the back is even worse than the 5 Series GT !!!

Oh and the Veneno... my mistake, THIS was the ugliest car of them all !