Crown

Yeah I think the 997 buckets should provide more than an adequate test-fit.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

Yeah I think the 997 buckets should provide more than an adequate test-fit.

What is the status of your car? When will it be built and delivered? Will it be ED?

No affirmed build date, only a Q1 slot.

Still planning on ED.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

Did you guys in the USA had proper single piece buckets in 997 GT3,or those reclineable ones?They should be very similar or identical to 991 buckets(2 piece reclineable)

I have seen rhodium in real life, there is a lot of blue in the color..... too much blue imo.

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Interesting and thoughtful comments on the development of the Porsche 991 GT3 in a historical context...

Petevb:

 

I find it interesting to look at the loss of the manual transmission in historical context. I was thinking about previous great Porsches, and realized that throughout its history there has always been a manual transmission in Porsche's top models, from the 356 through the 911, Turbo, 959, Carrera GT all the way to the 997 GT2 RS. As Pete Stout points out, there were only five inputs necessary to control every one of those cars: the steering wheel, brake, gas, gear-change and clutch. Today on those same top models not one but two of those inputs are no longer needed and one is simply unavailable, unceremoniously dumped without even a farewell tour.

 

On reflection, I can't think of a bigger single change to the driving experience in Porsche's history, with the possible exception of the introduction of the 928. That was a water-cooled front-engined GT car intended to replace a vehicle that was really none of those things, and we know how that story ended. Like that attempt at change, this one is worthy of real discussion not only at the factory but within the community. After all, in the end Porsche builds cars for us.

 

The loss of the manual transmission came about due to the evolution of "technology", which is something that I, and indeed Porsche, have had a bit of a love/ hate relationship with. On the one hand technology has brought about great increases in performance, safety, comfort and convenience. On the other hand I challenge anyone to step out of a 12 year old Mercedes Benz S class, with its dated nav screen, failing electronics, and ridiculous maintenance costs (MSRP when new north of 100k, bluebook today less than 8k) and tell me technology is only a good thing. Or step into a BMW M3 CSL with its now dated SMG transmission, installed to allow quicker 'ring times. Both examples can now be a painful reminder that, for some, technology can create a great car that dates like a new smartphone.

 

I see, real or imagined, two schools of engineering within Porsche, and one can imagine that they've been at war. One school embraces complexity and technology, the other lives by Colin Chapman's mantra: "simplify and add lightness". 

 

Porsche is capable of making great cars of either type, and at various times each faction has seemed to have the upper hand within Porsche. In my mind cars like the 928, 959, 997TT and 918 all clearly products of the technologists, while the 550 spyder, '73 RS, 968 Clubsport, GT2, Carrera GT and really any RS were the offspring of the "less is more" school, taking away as much as they added in order to achieve their greatness. Over time the balance of power between these two camps has seemed to shift back and forth.

 

Choosing sides in this battle, something which is certainly not required, is largely a matter of personal preference. However looking back, I note that in my personal opinion the "less is more" school tends to age better than the technologists. If I consider which cars I'd have myself, a '73 RS is obviously going to trump '78 928 by a country mile, never mind that in 1978 the 928 was the more expensive, far more technically advanced car and grabbing all the headlines. An F40 would trump a 959 for me (or it would if I fit in it properly), a GT3RS would trump a 997TT, and a CGT would trump a Bugatti. So while I respect the technologists and would certainly like to borrow some of their toys (I’ll take the 4 valve heads and water cooling from your 959 for my GT3, thank you very much) I tend to be inspired more often by the lightweight camp. Part of this is due to the focus on driving purity that often accompanies the simplification, part stems from the cars seeming more timeless. 

 

Over the last few years something interesting seemed to happen over at Porsche. The technologists and the simplifiers seem to have called something of a truce, and each side held its own territory. The technologists had their 4wd twin turbos, while the simplifiers got their GT cars with throwback manual transmissions. Over time the battle lines between them were redrawn slightly, as GT cars got a few more electronic gizmos, but a balance was maintained, intentional or otherwise, that allowed both sides to coexist.

 

Then, in 2008, technologists mounted a major assault. This attack came not from within Porsche, but was mounted from Japan in the form of the GT-R. It planted a flag deep in the heart of Porsche held territory at the Nürburgring. While Porsche had been busy developing a modern day F40 in their Carrera GT and a '73 RS successor in their GT3 RS, Nissan had turned the tables and attacked them with a modern day 959. 

 

This attack demanded a response: Porsche's GT group, defender of the 'ring, was called upon. They realized, however, that today "simplify and add lightness" alone will not get the job done. The CGT had shown where lightness, focus and reflexes alone would lead, but it also shown the limitations, and that this was a place few drivers could follow. So Porsche quadrupled their development budget and fought fire with fire. 

 

I’d suggest that the 2014 GT3 is the result. It is a hybrid, one that attempts to combine the best parts of the technologist and "less is more" schools. It doesn't do the obvious and build on the 4wd Twin Turbo, but instead keeps the rear wheel drive adjustability of the GT3. The driver still balances the car, not the computer, with the goal of making it simultaneously both fast and involving. We're already seeing the results- in the limited tests so far the new GT3 is trumping the GT-R in both cross country speed and in involvement, while adding the comfort needed to combat the Audi R8 to boot. The GT group has answered the call. 

 

In the process, however, the new GT3 has lost the right to lay claim as a successor to the "less is more" dynasty, and Porsche has gone so far as to say exactly that. Instead we've got the complicated and not light GT3, the more complicated and heavier Twin Turbo, and finally the über complex and heavy 918, which is about as far from "simplify and add lightness" as you can get. The new GT3 seems to be not just a new car, but a shift in the balance of power and the end of two eras, both manual transmission and “less is more”, that have reigned for over 50 years. For those in the "less is more" camp, you can understand how this would not be taken lightly. 

 

Is the concept "simplify and add lightness" really dead, a casualty of war? Is the line of epic, lightweight, analog, timeless sports cars that punch above their weight and both make great demands of and fully reward their drivers, really a thing of the past?

 

I'd argue both yes and no. 

 

If the quickest point to point car is your goal, then yes, the fastest car will now have technology, and lots of it. Race series around the world have been busy banning driver aids for decades, and where they are not banned race teams are using them. Making the quickest car isn't some kind of secret formula: it is mid-engine, 4wd, has an automated transmission and plenty of electronics to keep all four wheels working to their maximum potential. From that point it’s largely a question of how large and well you build it, from a pikes-peak racer (Peugeot 208 hillclimb racer) to a freeway rocket (Veyron).

 

Everyone knows this formula, but Porsche has in the past resisted speed for speed’s sake in favor of driver experience and a connection to its heritage. Its signature model, the 911, has stubbornly stuck with the engine in the "wrong" place because it helps define what Porsche is. The unique engine position gives it a certain driving experience, and while there may be faster ways around a course, to quote: "there is no substitute". I'd argue the manual transmission is a very similar issue. It's no longer the fastest way around the course, perhaps, but it's been at least as central to the Porsche driving experience. And Porsche seems have realized this: the 959 racing version was equipped with a dual clutch transmission in the 80s, sequential race gearboxes were widespread in the 90s, but the Carrera GT and GT cars stuck with a manual in the 2000s. 

 

I understand some of the pressures that have forced Porsche away from the philosophy of simplification and subtraction. I'd argue, however, that today there is still a place for epic, involving, analog cars that are better than ever. These can be worthy successors to the "less is more" dynasty, from Carrera RS through Carrera GT. If you doubt this, ask yourself how amazingly good a lightened, sharpened Cayman with the new GT3 motor and a manual 6 speed would be. No rear wheel steering or PDK needed, it would be a Carrera GT for the masses, and could be just as quick. OK, so that might not be quick enough to beat a GT-R V spec mark XVII, but ask yourself which you would prefer to drive, that or a Carrera GT? Shouldn't we be offered the choice?

 

The pendulum of technology has swung a long way away from "less is more" this time. I'd argue strongly, however, there is good reason to return to the pre war truce, where simplified analog experiences like a manual GT3 or CGT coexist beside technology cars. Yes, they might now be slightly slower than their heavier, more complicated brothers, but years from now no one is going to care about a few seconds at the 'ring. Instead these cars will be prized for their purity and driving experience and their connection to Porsche's history, a history that includes manual shifting. 

 

These "simplify and add lightness" cars form the bedrock the Porsche legend is built on, and to abandon them to history would be a major blow. Porsche builds cars for us, but currently they no longer build a car for me. I sincerely hope that changes.

 

__________________

69 w/ 997 GT3 cup motor

1M, R32, 912

...all due credit and respect to Petevb for such perspicacious musings!

 

+++++++++++++++

My vote goes to Colin Chapman! 

Porsche has always built the best performing car possible with the technology available. The 917 was not a "less is more" exercise, nor was the Carrera 4 cam engine. Porsche has always sought to combine technologic innovation with everyday usability and reliability.  I am not a fan of gratutitous technology, but let's not revise history by remaking Porsche into Morgan either.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

moo:

sidicks:

nberry:

In the US, ask a dealer for a discount on a 991GT3 and you would laughed off the premises.

In the UK you'd be thrown off the premises....!

austria: gt3 5-6%, turbo 7-10% depending on negotiation skills

Idem in Luxembourg, and no long waiting period.

Just one question: are we talking 5-10% discount on MSRP? Does this vary much from region to region ( the net price)?

Have fun, or laugh trying....

If they are discounting GT3's in Europe it may explain why my allocation build date was moved up from second quarter 2014 to Dec. 2013. Porsche sends the car where people want it.

throt:

Christian, what's your opinion on going for the normal sports seats in the GT3, be it the 4 way or the 18 way seats, against not having the buckets. 

Anyone's else's opinion appreciated too..

Hi, just sat in the gt3 bucket seats yesterday. I observed two things:

1.they were astonishingly comfortable when seated in them. The padding is soft and cosy, you really feel one with the car up to your shoulders. so a positive surprise, but...

2. what i found really disturbing is that the seat had too much of an inclination backwards. I would have liked to have my torso be more upright which just wasnt possible (i am 1.87 tall). The seats in the turbo i seattested and which correspond to the sport seats of the gt3 were perfect in my opinion due to the regulation possibilities.

Therefore definitely try them in person before buying them. If in doubt go for the sportseats that you can adjust as you please! 

turbolite

I got 3% out of European dealer as standard gratuity discount. However what you have to remember is UK & USA are comparitively cheaper than Europe now by 8-12% (FX) and Europe is no longer one of the cheapest places to buy new Porsche due to Euro....

turbolite:

throt:

Christian, what's your opinion on going for the normal sports seats in the GT3, be it the 4 way or the 18 way seats, against not having the buckets. 

Anyone's else's opinion appreciated too..

Hi, just sat in the gt3 bucket seats yesterday. I observed two things:

1.they were astonishingly comfortable when seated in them. The padding is soft and cosy, you really feel one with the car up to your shoulders. so a positive surprise, but...

2. what i found really disturbing is that the seat had too much of an inclination backwards. I would have liked to have my torso be more upright which just wasnt possible (i am 1.87 tall). The seats in the turbo i seattested and which correspond to the sport seats of the gt3 were perfect in my opinion due to the regulation possibilities.

Therefore definitely try them in person before buying them. If in doubt go for the sportseats that you can adjust as you please! 

I though the dealer can adjust the backrest angle to suit the owner?

I thought the side mounts that hold the seats to the rails may have had additional holes to adjust the rake of the seat like my recaro buckets, but looking at the close up pictures unfortunately they do not. The base of the seat have U hooks in steel that lock the seat back in place so the rake of the actual back can also never been adjusted. I also tried the same seats in the 997.2 GT3 this week and felt they lean too far back for me. I am 1.84 but longer in leg and prefer to sit away from the wheel but more upright so less stress on my neck especially for log drives etc...

The buckets look great, especially the back. Too bad Porsche did not give this as an option for the back panel of the 'normal' seats. 

I had a small doubt to opt for the buckets. But since I am going to drive it (almost) daily, I did not choose it. 

- HS (Belgium)  -  '14 Porsche 991 GT3 (oct build) - '06 BMW 335I Coupe  

About that Rhodium grey: I think it is way too blue. In some shots it looks good. I think there is not a grey color that looks great on the 991 GT3. They are all too 'luxurious' for the look of the GT3 IMHO.

What do you guys think about this?

- HS (Belgium)  -  '14 Porsche 991 GT3 (oct build) - '06 BMW 335I Coupe  

GT Silver.....  lookd great!     Agree too much blue in Rhodium Silver

Polar Silver is my favorite Silver ever.  Both it and the original silver for the legendary 550 Spyder and RSK had more Blue than Rhodium.  Definitely not too much Blue in Rhodium - looks great.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Agreed!

Can anyone confirm whether the Frankfurt car is GT Silver or Rhodium Silver?!

I will. Tomorrow I will fly to Frankfurt.

There is no try. Just do.

Pentium:

I will. Tomorrow I will fly to Frankfurt.

Thanks!

Frankfurt car IS Rhodium Silver, confirmed with the salespeople.... beautiful!

turbolite

turbolite:

Frankfurt car IS Rhodium Silver, confirmed with the salespeople.... beautiful!

Perfect - many thanks.

That's my colour choice finalised!

sidicks:

turbolite:

Frankfurt car IS Rhodium Silver, confirmed with the salespeople.... beautiful!

Perfect - many thanks.

That's my colour choice finalised!

congrats! also check out the other pics i posted under the gt2/gt3 thread...

turbolite

turbolite:

congrats! also check out the other pics i posted under the gt2/gt3 thread...

Where?

it's called IAA today..

turbolite

turbolite:

it's called IAA today..

Ok, thanks!