Crown

turbolite:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Interesting comments on the 991 GT3 from Pete Stout, who attended the preview with Chris Harris and Sport Auto...

Pete Stout:

"See the white flash go by Chris' thumbs up? That was me. And trust me, there was plenty of driving time, on great roads, in this deal. More quality seat time in the first afternoon than on the main day of most press intros—and no car sharing. 

For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is a 10 out of 10. Might even be an 11, but I'll need to wait for more time with the car Stateside.

 

As to those cynical about CH, I think I may now have actually seen it all...   

 

...

 

As far as I'm concerned, the journalists invited to this represented a gutsy move on Porsche's part: They're known for calling it like they see it, and they know the previous (excellent) cars intimately. They also know the target market well—both in terms of studying it and in actually knowing a lot of the customers, often on a personal level. 

 

If the car was a bust, I assure you...you would've heard as much from CH. And me. 

 

So while the overall take went very, very well for PAG—and AP's team more than earned the high praise—the verdict re: the decision not to offer a manual was unanimous: We all pined for three pedals, even if we recognized that Porsche will likely find more buyers with the 991 GT3 than it did with the 997s. Hence my one qualification. For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is an incredible car. 

 

But, without the option of a manual, I'm afraid the GT3 has fallen off my personal dream car list. It's been an interesting matter for me to ponder, both from a professional and a personal/philosophical standpoint...and I agree with Chris that there must be some separation of the two."

 

pete

Well said. It's clear all three agreed on the fact of not offering the manual option is  a limitation for this car as some drivers feel that is what a true sport car needs to have. And they all agree the car is superb the way it is.

x2 

The list of manual dream cars is shrinking very fast... Soon to be relegated to cars like Donkervoort or Catheram,

Does anyone know which silver is on the 991 GT3 that Chris Harris just tested? It looks fantastic. Is it Rhodium or GT Silver?

ecride:

Does anyone know which silver is on the 991 GT3 that Chris Harris just tested? It looks fantastic. Is it Rhodium or GT Silver?

I think Rhodium (GT Silver is darker, more of a gray)

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

DaveC:

I do not understand why the overwhelming majority of manual transmission advocates/defenders inevitably advance their opinion/argument with pejorative statements about PDK and by extension PDK drivers.  I absolutely agree that a GT3 should be available w/ a manual transmission. There is no need to condescend, belittle, or mock those who prefer one over the other. The only point of contention should be that Porsche chose one over the other to be its sole offering.

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

From a business point of view, offering manual on the GT3 doesn't really make sense (unless they would really charge for it). Let me put it this way: By offering PDK only in the GT3, Porsche may have lost 1 or 2 customers per 10 cars but at the same time, by offering PDK, they gained 3-4 customers per 10 cars. I know this sounds a little bit unscientific but you get my point (the mentioned numbers are not real but I am pretty sure that the majority wants PDK). They loose some but they gain more. Now the question is: Is the minority (yes, minority) who wants manual that important to Porsche that they would invest development resources into a manual transmission? Also, how many would Porsche sell? I also bet that if Porsche would charge 5k EUR for a manual tranny, even some of those, who initially advocated manual, would choose PDK instead.

Yes, it is nice to have options but at some point, Porsche has to think about their business too.

So here is my question: Would you pay 5k for a manual option? Or maybe only 3k? Would you accept that a manual car would have a worse performance than the PDK car? If your answer is yes, maybe Porsche reads this.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

SciFrog:

The list of manual dream cars is shrinking very fast... Soon to be relegated to cars like Donkervoort or Catheram,

These are not cars, these are coffins with wheels on them... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

The MT-adepts will slowly come around by the 991.2 GT3. In short: sell more now, sell even more in the future...

Will at least stick to my 997 till then.

RC:

DaveC:

I do not understand why the overwhelming majority of manual transmission advocates/defenders inevitably advance their opinion/argument with pejorative statements about PDK and by extension PDK drivers.  I absolutely agree that a GT3 should be available w/ a manual transmission. There is no need to condescend, belittle, or mock those who prefer one over the other. The only point of contention should be that Porsche chose one over the other to be its sole offering.

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

From a business point of view, offering manual on the GT3 doesn't really make sense (unless they would really charge for it). Let me put it this way: By offering PDK only in the GT3, Porsche may have lost 1 or 2 customers per 10 cars but at the same time, by offering PDK, they gained 3-4 customers per 10 cars. I know this sounds a little bit unscientific but you get my point (the mentioned numbers are not real but I am pretty sure that the majority wants PDK). They loose some but they gain more. Now the question is: Is the minority (yes, minority) who wants manual that important to Porsche that they would invest development resources into a manual transmission? Also, how many would Porsche sell? I also bet that if Porsche would charge 5k EUR for a manual tranny, even some of those, who initially advocated manual, would choose PDK instead.

Yes, it is nice to have options but at some point, Porsche has to think about their business too.

So here is my question: Would you pay 5k for a manual option? Or maybe only 3k? Would you accept that a manual car would have a worse performance than the PDK car? If your answer is yes, maybe Porsche reads this.

The PDK is essential for me as I cannot physicially operate the clutch, never  have been, for orthopedic reasons. So this GT3 is an answer to a dream for me. I am, of course, only a market of one.  I fully understand the logic of Porsche's PDK decision.  However, you must admit that Porsche now offers a 911 variant for almost every market niche. Does not that not suggest that a manual GT3 alongside the PDK would not be that much of a challenge to produce from virtually any POV?

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

DaveC:

However, you must admit that Porsche now offers a 911 variant for almost every market niche. Does not that not suggest that a manual GT3 alongside the PDK would not be that much of a challenge to produce from virtually any POV?

Of course I agree. Porsche should offer any possible option available, including manual. However, I don't think they can offer it completely free anymore. What surprises me a little bit is that Porsche offers manual on the Carrera but not on the GT3 but maybe they should abandon manual as standard on all cars, use PDK instead and then sell manual as an option. Then, it would make sense to me. 

I also think that the 991 GT3 RS gets manual (a lot of pressure from customers here...I heard), at least as an option. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

as Chris states in his report - I am also quite sure a lot of people will exactly NOW buy a GT3 because of PDK - and the fact that it's kind of the "new S" Carrera - I would also bet a lot will try to delete the spoiler. Quite some friends said they love everything about my car - except for that ugly "Beer-Bar"  - if Porsche would use the engine/exhaust into a 4S for example (call it a GTS ) I am sure would have a big seller...

BjoernB:

as Chris states in his report - I am also quite sure a lot of people will exactly NOW buy a GT3 because of PDK - and the fact that it's kind of the "new S" Carrera - I would also bet a lot will try to delete the spoiler. Quite some friends said they love everything about my car - except for that ugly "Beer-Bar"  - if Porsche would use the engine/exhaust into a 4S for example (call it a GTS ) I am sure would have a big seller...

I would love a GT3 without the rear wing and with back seats. Technically, not problem. Product differentiation? Huge problem. Same goes to the 997 GT2 RS for example: Why did Porsche never offer a 997 Turbo GTS with the GT2 RS engine for example?

I want maximum performance plus AWD minus ugly wings. I hope Porsche understands the potential for such a product one day... 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Porsche if you read this - I just realized I want a GT3 4S Targa with the 50th anniversary grill pls !

BjoernB:

Porsche if you read this - I just realized I want a GT3 4S Targa with the 50th anniversary grill pls !

 They do not have to call that car a GT3. They do not even have to give it the full 475 hp, 460 hp would suffice. Just something special, not just another supped up/tuned Carrera.

I expected something more special from the anniversary model anyway, a de-tuned GT3 engine with 450 hp in the anniversary model would have been a blast. I think they would have sold tons of these at a much higher price than the current anniversary edition.

Back to the manual vs. PDK GT3 discussion: According to Porsche, the PDK car wins one car length over a manual version (development prototype) of the new GT3 with each PDK upshift. Both cars have identical power. Do you understand what this means? You can still shift with the PDK paddles, so this is about the gear lever and clutch only. Does the pleasure of using both is really worth loosing that much of performance? You decide.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

100% agree  - tell yr P-source we need 50 "Rennteam" versions n pre-order them

RC:

BjoernB:

as Chris states in his report - I am also quite sure a lot of people will exactly NOW buy a GT3 because of PDK - and the fact that it's kind of the "new S" Carrera - I would also bet a lot will try to delete the spoiler. Quite some friends said they love everything about my car - except for that ugly "Beer-Bar"  - if Porsche would use the engine/exhaust into a 4S for example (call it a GTS ) I am sure would have a big seller...

I would love a GT3 without the rear wing and with back seats. Technically, not problem. Product differentiation? Huge problem. Same goes to the 997 GT2 RS for example: Why did Porsche never offer a 997 Turbo GTS with the GT2 RS engine for example?

I want maximum performance plus AWD minus ugly wings. I hope Porsche understands the potential for such a product one day... 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

A GT3 with rear seat and minus aerokit (front and rear fascia as well as wing) would be my perfect 911, not sure how big of a market would be for it though, but for me it would be the ideal 911.

--

Carlos from Spain:

 

A GT3 with rear seat and minus aerokit (front and rear fascia as well as wing) would be my perfect 911, not sure how big of a market would be for it though, but for me it would be the ideal 911.

If you like it and I like it, I am pretty sure there are others out there who would buy such a car.

Why not make the next 991 Carrera GTS that way? Just saying...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

BjoernB:

100% agree  - tell yr P-source we need 50 "Rennteam" versions n pre-order them

For 300k EUR each, it can be done. Seriously.   

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

BjoernB:

100% agree  - tell yr P-source we need 50 "Rennteam" versions n pre-order them

For 300k EUR each, it can be done. Seriously.   

How about if we order 150 units at 100k EUR each?

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

RC:

BjoernB:

100% agree  - tell yr P-source we need 50 "Rennteam" versions n pre-order them

For 300k EUR each, it can be done. Seriously.   

How about if we order 150 units at 100k EUR each?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

The reason why Porsche did not offer manual in the GT3 is because it would have required them to "dumb down" the car. Why should a manufacturer develop a performance car and impair its performance with old technology to satisfy a FEW luddite car enthusiast? Within a couple of years, the complaints about lack of MT will shrivel to a whisper. Meanwhile, Porsche performance cars just get better.

nberry:

The reason why Porsche did not offer manual in the GT3 is because it would have required them to "dumb down" the car. Why should a manufacturer develop a performance car and impair its performance with old technology to satisfy a FEW luddite car enthusiast? Within a couple of years, the complaints about lack of MT will shrivel to a whisper. Meanwhile, Porsche performance cars just get better.

Manual wouldn't necessarily dumb the car down but it would make it substantially slower and if you would be a development engineer, wouldn't you want the car to be as fast as possible without compromising driving fun too much? I think PDK is a good compromise, considering the fact that people can still shift (paddles) manually.

Btw: I worry that if Porsche offers manual for the GT3 RS, reviewers will later complaint that the more powerful and more expensive GT3 RS is slower than the GT3 with PDK on the track. 

If Porsche decided not to offer manual anymore for their GT models, they should stick to this decision and not back down. Time will tell...latest with the GT3 RS introduction.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Again - I stress - the PDK is faster when shifting - not while accelerating, braking or handing.  If you enjoy shifting it is a losing proposition.  You lose the fun of shifting and when not shifting you are slower in every other measure.  You must agree that a heavier car (with PDK) is at a disadvantage.  A sequencial manual is the real answer for the GT3RS.  As light as a manual, launch control, perfect upshifts without a clutch, cluch for downshifting when you need/want it the most.  It would be a beast and exactly what P needs to shut up the demand for a manual.  When they do this PDK will just be another automatic.

Porsche has been dumbing down their cars with Automatics (prior to PDK) to make profit for years so I am not certain I get Nicks point.  I recall the used car market being very hard on automatic 911s. 

RC - what is with the 'charge extra for manual' movement?  lol  - Do you not believe Porsche is already skilled at extracting max dollars?

Cheers - off to the lake to have some fun with lots of naked people (sex reference for RC to spice up this thread).  Who wants pictures on Monday?  I rest my case!

Leawood911:

Again - I stress - the PDK is faster when shifting - not while accelerating, braking or handing.  If you enjoy shifting it is a losing proposition.  You lose the fun of shifting and when not shifting you are slower in every other measure.  You must agree that a heavier car (with PDK) is at a disadvantage.  A sequencial manual is the real answer for the GT3RS.  As light as a manual, launch control, perfect upshifts without a clutch, cluch for downshifting when you need/want it the most.  It would be a beast and exactly what P needs to shut up the demand for a manual.  When they do this PDK will just be another automatic.

Two words: Walter Mitty...

nberry:

The reason why Porsche did not offer manual in the GT3 is because it would have required them to "dumb down" the car. 

You keep believing that if it makes you more secure about using a PDK, but dumbing down is analogous with making it simpler and easier to drive and that is what precisely what the PDK vs the manual does. Oh... the irony 

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to manual trannies, its like you would like them to dissapear from the face of the earth so that nobody drives them and everybody drives an auto like you. You should be happy with a PDK without being bothered by what others are driving  Are you really that narrowmiunded that you cannot see why others would prefer to drive a manual? if the answer is yes then thats a shame, and if the answer is no then why do you feel you now what is best for others?

The issue is not what tranny is best, as that will vary from driver to driver, the issue here is that in the GT3 one group doesn't even get their option, and its just as wrong now as it was in the 997 when only manual was available instead. From Porsche's point of view, they look out for profits and to them ists a matter of if developing a manual for the GT3 is profitable or not, and they they seem to think that its not, just like developing a PDK for the outgoing Metzer engine in the 997 wasn't profitable either.

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This PDK vs. Manual debate is saturated IMO. All opinions and arguments have been stated and debated. New posts add nothing to the matter but they are recycling the same views over and over again. I believe no one has been convinced to change his position, as a result of this prolonged debate.

Let's declare it finished.

--

"Form follows function"

Leawood911:

Again - I stress - the PDK is faster when shifting - not while accelerating, braking or handing.  If you enjoy shifting it is a losing proposition.  You lose the fun of shifting and when not shifting you are slower in every other measure.  You must agree that a heavier car (with PDK) is at a disadvantage.  A sequencial manual is the real answer for the GT3RS.  As light as a manual, launch control, perfect upshifts without a clutch, cluch for downshifting when you need/want it the most.  It would be a beast and exactly what P needs to shut up the demand for a manual.  When they do this PDK will just be another automatic.

Porsche has been dumbing down their cars with Automatics (prior to PDK) to make profit for years so I am not certain I get Nicks point.  I recall the used car market being very hard on automatic 911s. 

RC - what is with the 'charge extra for manual' movement?  lol  - Do you not believe Porsche is already skilled at extracting max dollars?

Cheers - off to the lake to have some fun with lots of naked people (sex reference for RC to spice up this thread).  Who wants pictures on Monday?  I rest my case!

Sequential manual??!!

Are you serious? Did you ever got the chance to try for example e-gear in Gallardo or very good F1 in F430?

I bet you did not. Why? Since most die hard manual fans had tons of complains about the way these sequential manual work. They claimed that they can do all these things better with clutch and stick...

And... Here we go again... PDK is nooo good. Manual is again way better...

Just ask some members here who owned both F430F1 and currently own 458 Italia which gearbox is better, F1 in F430 or DCT in 458 Italia?

IMHO, there is NO comparison at all.

Porsche want the new GT3 to be as fast as possible so they can raise the price and make more money. That means no (slow) manual and they can concentrate their resources on making a great PDK. Win-Win.

Leawood911:

Again - I stress - the PDK is faster when shifting - not while accelerating, braking or handing.  If you enjoy shifting it is a losing proposition.  You lose the fun of shifting and when not shifting you are slower in every other measure.  You must agree that a heavier car (with PDK) is at a disadvantage.  A sequencial manual is the real answer for the GT3RS.  As light as a manual, launch control, perfect upshifts without a clutch, cluch for downshifting when you need/want it the most.  It would be a beast and exactly what P needs to shut up the demand for a manual.  When they do this PDK will just be another automatic.

Porsche has been dumbing down their cars with Automatics (prior to PDK) to make profit for years so I am not certain I get Nicks point.  I recall the used car market being very hard on automatic 911s. 

RC - what is with the 'charge extra for manual' movement?  lol  - Do you not believe Porsche is already skilled at extracting max dollars?

Cheers - off to the lake to have some fun with lots of naked people (sex reference for RC to spice up this thread).  Who wants pictures on Monday?  I rest my case!

1.  The weight difference b/t PDK and manual is what, 60 lbs.  or 2% of the car's overall mass.  Doubt you could feel the weight difference much less an instrumented test that would validate a statical improvement in braking, accelerating (in gear) or cornering forces.  In any event, the true performance improvement is not even in the extra car lengths gained upshifting, it's the perfect rev match, each and every time, entering a corner.  In *real* driving situations where a gearshift is involved, whether on track or in a spirited drive, the pdk will be a faster car.  No question

2.  Sequential manual in a street car?  You've got to be kidding me.

3.  The primary argument for the manual is FUN.  Many argue that it's more fun, more engaging than an automanual.  I agree with them, but I'm still getting the new car.  As we shall see, the new metal even with the pdk, will be an epic ride.

4.  Nekkid people in Kansas?  Man, pls no pictures of your Heifers!

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991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

The idea that you are "faster" in a car because of PDK vs. manual does not compute for me.  Lap times are a matter of relativity.  Are you faster than your last lap.  If you have different equipment then you have a different car and of course different cars are faster than other cars.  Not like GT3 is the fastest car.  You can always by a faster car.  So those who argue that they should get the fastest version of a car, I would argue that you can always buy a faster car.  For me the argument is are you faster than your last lap given the equipment you chose to have.  Be that PDK or manual.  If you are a racer, than that is a different argument as you are in a specific class of car (but you still aren't in PDK - )

My take on PDK, while trying to avoid the cliche that "PDK is faster, but who cares, manual is more fun."

IMO there is no avoiding the progress that is PDK. Manual would be "better", but the lack of it only adds to the charm, character, and desirability of the older cars. If you prefer manual, chances are you prefer the less refined nature of the older cars anyway.

Like with any new car, it is the manufacturer's job to make it perform better in any way they possibly can than the older car. The 997 GT3 no doubt has its flaws that hinder performance; these are what made that car so special, however. Porsche has improved on the flaws of that car, and as a result we must deal with the compromise that is PDK.

That is what is so great about the 911, every time they change it, there is and equal gain and loss on either end (performance/fun), which gives each generation something about it; a different soul, all are more or less equally as good.