Crown

993Targa:

Gnil:

I did not see any currency discount. I will have to ask the dealer for that and I really hope they are doing it , otherwise .....

http://www.porscheswisspackage.ch/de/911.html

Kursabhängige Währungsausgleichsprämie on the 991

 

So what will they offer in the Swiss package for the GT3 ?  Bose surround +  park assist + tempostat + heating in the seats 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Couple of comments - did no one see my post on US pricing - 100K Euro, 130K US Dollars!

If the metzger is too expensive to build in small numbers then PUT IT IN ALL 911s like they used to!!!

If they used that concept (motorsports engine) in all 911s (and maybe Boxster, gayman etc,) they would have save a lot of money and we would get our moneys worth.  And yes - you can add any transmission or injection to any engine.  It is not like you have to manipulate DNA - just fit the parts and sensors.  Evolve the engine like it has been for decades - don't pull a smoke and mirrors show and try to convince us everything is the same or better.  Nothing but cost savings and packaging combined with PR and marketing.  Even if the new engine is reliable and faster - it is still a cheap shortcut.  My Seiko is better at keeping time than my Rolex but if Rolex put in a Seiko movement I would not want to pay the same price.

Interesting to see what the engine will do in the Motorsports world.  Great if it works.  Results are all that matter in that world - the seiko parts in the rolex are of no concern to the racer that wins.  For the Porsche customer the 'seiko' parts are always going to need to be disguised and explained away.  The fact we have this discussion and 'explanations' is proof enough.

Christian, Reginos, et al.

I understand.

Just a rant that I miss the end of an era, missing the 'click' sound that a 911 door used to make.  Like a 'Leica'.

That's all.

I respect the Porsche engineers.

KresoF1:

I have to say that I am deeply dissapointed with some negative commetns about new GT3 here.

BTW, nobody noticed few very nice things about new GT3:

top speed is in 7th gear and overall ratio is much shorter then on normal PDK.

This is my favorite transmission upgrade.  I have long believed that the gearing of the GT3 was far too widely spaced and too tall for racetracks (except maybe N'Ring). 

Gap between 2nd and 3rd in the 6 speed was too wide.

Raising redline to 9k and shortening the closer ratios will be a huge advantage (even if power and weight were the same) on the track.

If the RS has a manual, I hope it will share the same gearing  (or even lower/closer if different, keeping at least 7 ratios).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

wurlie:

Why does the 991 Cup have a Mezger? Preuninger did not answer. Would be interesting to know.

The car looks nice, personally I dislike the 20in wheels. The Cup on 18in wheels looked better to me.

best, w

 Can't clear the 410mm PCCB rotors with 18" wheels (or even 19").

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Gnil:

Something VERY WRONG with Swiss pricing again !!!

In Germany , including 19% tax : Euro : 137 300 .-  = CHF 171'000.-   Excluding tax : CHF 143700.-

In Switzerland , including 8% tax : CHF 190'000 .-     Excluding tax : CHF 175'900 .-  That is about 22% more expensive !!

I thaught Swiss pricing had been adapted now ( and they are on the Carrera , Turbo ( 997 ) , but it seems that they choose not to do it on the Gt3 , probably thinking customers will less likely buy the car on the foreign markets.

This is bad again for our local market and will mess up the Porsche distribution again !!! 

Porsche : do not be surprised  if we get lots of US imported cars again ( like we did with the 997 )   or that people buy their Gt3's in Germany . All this messing up the local market !

This difference is not acceptable .

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

100% agree on that, please let us know if they give a exchange rat discount, like on the cayenne or panamera. If not that would be my Personal Show stopper, for Porsche swiss cars. I would just buy them in Germany.  ( 130 000 USD for the very same car, i cant believe it, lucky Us costumers)

Credits to Ferrari where an f12 is about the same money in switzerland or Germany and difference to us prices are rather small. I do feel like certain countries do have to Sponsors others..

KresoF1:

I have to say that I am deeply dissapointed with some negative commetns about new GT3 here.

Specially regarding new REAl dry sump engine. So, Mezger is a reference? Ok, I can accept that it is proven base even for motorsport but... How about some technical facts?

Mezger can not use DFI.

Mezger can not be mated to any gearbox, but to manual and very old 5 speed MB automatic(997.1 Turbo).

Mezger can not use latest gen of engine control electronics(networked systems).

So, what did people here with negative comments expect from new 991 GT3?

Something like old Mezger 4.0L with 500ps, old 6 speed manual, NO SPASM-but conventional adjustable sport suspension, rear LSD good old 50% mechanical lock etc??

Car like that already exist and you can buy it on used car market.

BTW, nobody noticed few very nice things about new GT3:

-PDK is fully reworked, both mechanically and with extensive software/CPU redesign(from the scratch!)

-top speed is in 7th gear and overall ratio is much shorter then on normal PDK. Overall gearbox is tuned a la DCT on 458 and it is offering razor sharp response at any speed

For me personally new 991 GT3 is more then I expected from technical point of view. Exterior is debatable as always.

 Hi Kreso,

More or less agree to what you say..except a few things on the Mezger engine. True is however also, no one expected the new GT3 engine to be a complete make-over of the 991 engine. The fact that basically started from scratch is good. No manual, ist not good, likewise 4-steering..its not used in racing.

But what I was trying to say, and with this I agree with 911rox, its now time that Porsche shows how good the engine is..that means, please put it in a 991 CUP and RSR. If it wins the 2013/2014 24 Le Mans..Im back in the market again..but only for the RS then..- if its more raw then the 991 GT3.

The 991 GT3 looks good, best looking 991 so far. So please, Porsche, for the RS, ditch the 4-wheel steering, the e-steering, no problem in keeping Pdk ..but above all, its time for the engine to earn its respect on the racetrack. This is a GT3....and not some "house -wives" car..,. Even my girlfriend with 50kg drove my GT2..its possible

Amen

911rox:

zeshark:

A little peak under the skirts ... New protection sheet metal. I am told 964 and 993s had something similar.

Not very GT3ish to add weight like that... Probably hiding the shame that is no Mezger....

It's for aerodynamic purposes....

GTlover:So please, Porsche, for the RS, ditch the 4-wheel steering, the e-steering, no problem in keeping Pdk ..but above all, its time for the engine to earn its respect on the racetrack. This is a GT3....and not some "house -wives" car..,. Even my girlfriend with 50kg drove my GT2..its possible

If Porsche ditches the 4-wheel steering on the RS, the RS will achieve the same time as the GT3. Do you feel good now? Just saying...

Same goes with the steering, it feels very good according to Preuninger and if you don't like it, contact him and tell him. I kind of have the feeling that you won't. As long as the raw "feeling" is there, I don't care how it is achieved and if it makes the car even easier to drive fast, even better. A challenge? Most private drivers I know want a challenge but can hardly handle one (a real one) but of course they think they are fast because they did the 2nd or 3rd place in some Porsche or whatever driving school sports car event.

Please don't get me wrong: I get it but technology moves on and so do cars and car manufacturers. Many years ago, when the first GT3 arrived, I had to listen to so much crap from 964 RS drivers about the GT3 and even the first RS. Now many former 964 RS drivers actually own a GT3 RS. More questions?! Welcome to the 21st century.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Christian,

Fully agree with you. BTW, some people think here that you and I did not criticise Porsche here on rennteam? Well, this is not the truth at all. Long term members will know better...

Both new GT3 and forthcoming Turbo/Turbo S versions are awsome cars. Of course, in my humble opinion.

KresoF1:

I have to say that I am deeply dissapointed with some negative commetns about new GT3 here.

Specially regarding new REAl dry sump engine. So, Mezger is a reference? Ok, I can accept that it is proven base even for motorsport but... How about some technical facts?

Mezger can not use DFI.

Mezger can not be mated to any gearbox, but to manual and very old 5 speed MB automatic(997.1 Turbo).

Mezger can not use latest gen of engine control electronics(networked systems).

So, what did people here with negative comments expect from new 991 GT3?

Something like old Mezger 4.0L with 500ps, old 6 speed manual, NO SPASM-but conventional adjustable sport suspension, rear LSD good old 50% mechanical lock etc??

Car like that already exist and you can buy it on used car market.

BTW, nobody noticed few very nice things about new GT3:

-PDK is fully reworked, both mechanically and with extensive software/CPU redesign(from the scratch!)

-top speed is in 7th gear and overall ratio is much shorter then on normal PDK. Overall gearbox is tuned a la DCT on 458 and it is offering razor sharp response at any speed

For me personally new 991 GT3 is more then I expected from technical point of view. Exterior is debatable as always.

Kreso - as a (almost) daily reader, your input on this board is invaluable by bringing deep knowledge endowed with genuine objectivity.  You, RC and other here with similar attitudes are making Rennteam what it is, the place to be for real connoisseurs.

RC is very fair when calling BS on Porsche!  I respect that.  Why I am still on the forum.  We just have tire differences and I will drive an auto porsche when I have no use of my left leg, lol.

similarly - he knows that no one on this forum has a many 911 miles under his/her belt as me.  Period.  My only claim to fame, and a good one!

Given what I have read so far abouth the 991 GT3 I personally think its going to be even a bigger leap than the 997GT3 in its time, its a new benchmark in sportcars.

The only fault is the lack of manual option, I'm all for the GT3 having a PDK, its a logical step and from a performance point of o view an absolutely necessary one to stay ahead of the competition, but that doesn't mean that it can be a substitute for a manual, and much less ina  GT3, not while there are customers that preffer the manual for pure driving enjoyment and pleasure.. no amount of perfomrnace increase can subtitute bheing able to operate stick and clutch yourself in manual lovers... huge disloyalty and very dissapointing from Porsche 

Some drivers may preffer the PDK and some the manual and I don't judge either driver, to each his own and both are respectable personal choices, but you should be able to choose, it shouldn't be only manual or only PDK. Especially on a GT3...

--

no manual is especially weird as you can get manual no standard Carreras

RC:

GTlover:So please, Porsche, for the RS, ditch the 4-wheel steering, the e-steering, no problem in keeping Pdk ..but above all, its time for the engine to earn its respect on the racetrack. This is a GT3....and not some "house -wives" car..,. Even my girlfriend with 50kg drove my GT2..its possible

If Porsche ditches the 4-wheel steering on the RS, the RS will achieve the same time as the GT3. Do you feel good now? Just saying...

Same goes with the steering, it feels very good according to Preuninger and if you don't like it, contact him and tell him. I kind of have the feeling that you won't. As long as the raw "feeling" is there, I don't care how it is achieved and if it makes the car even easier to drive fast, even better. A challenge? Most private drivers I know want a challenge but can hardly handle one (a real one) but of course they think they are fast because they did the 2nd or 3rd place in some Porsche or whatever driving school sports car event.

Please don't get me wrong: I get it but technology moves on and so do cars and car manufacturers. Many years ago, when the first GT3 arrived, I had to listen to so much crap from 964 RS drivers about the GT3 and even the first RS. Now many former 964 RS drivers actually own a GT3 RS. More questions?! Welcome to the 21st century.

 Valid points..I know..but if the RS has more then 520HP + 50-60Kg less..no need for 4 wheel steering..or? PdK has to stay of course..you see - Im at least living in the 20the century..

Carlos from Spain:

Given what I have read so far abouth the 991 GT3 I personally think its going to be even a bigger leap than the 997GT3 in its time, its a new benchmark in sportcars.

The only fault is the lack of manual option, I'm all for the GT3 having a PDK, its a logical step and from a performance point of o view an absolutely necessary one to stay ahead of the competition, but that doesn't mean that it can be a substitute for a manual, and much less ina  GT3, not while there are customers that preffer the manual for pure driving enjoyment and pleasure.. no amount of perfomrnace increase can subtitute bheing able to operate stick and clutch yourself in manual lovers... huge disloyalty and very dissapointing from Porsche 

Some drivers may preffer the PDK and some the manual and I don't judge either driver, to each his own and both are respectable personal choices, but you should be able to choose, it shouldn't be only manual or only PDK. Especially on a GT3...

--

Manual proved to have only disadvantages in the GT3, they tested a manual version and it was much slower.

Mark my words, this new GT3 will be the most successful GT3 ever in Porsche history because it is fast on the track, it is a good daily driver and it still provides the same "raw" driving feel people expect from a GT3. I don't care if this drive feel is actually engineered, you should drive the Cayenne GTS and compare it to the other Cayenne models, the difference is huge. So I don't care how Porsche achieved this drive feel, it is there, the car is much faster than the previous model, so nothing lost here.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

911rox:

Kreso, you are ill informed about the Mezger... All those items you claim it can't do are only limited by the engineers... A bell housing to mate to a pdk is a 5 minute job... Any brand of sensor, DFI etc can be added to any engine if the time and money are allocated to the task. They chose NOT to because of the supposed "COSTS" involved... Even AP said clearly that COST was 50% of the reason the Mezger is no longer here... Yet COST seems not to be an issue where theire racing program is concerned?

Regretfully 4.0RSs are not a dime a dozen... Only 6 were allocated to the whole of Australia and one was totalled. Not exactly an item one finds on the used car market... Just saying....

Technically, the car may be fine but will it be reliable considering its a track focused car, that is the question that nobody but time can answer...

sfo:

reginos:

sfo:

the proof of how good the 991 GT3 is will be in how reliable it is, and whether it stands up to lots of track day use

it may be fabulously quick with the latest tech, but that's no good if it keeps going wrong.

You presume that the new engine hasn't been track tested very extensively 

I have a feeling that it has done the NBR 24 Hours several times over plus many hours of flat out in Nardo (Porsche owned since a year ago) , before being released in the GT3.

The Mezger is a hero of the past. Let it rest in glory.

 testing and more testing does not find everything, otherwise cars would be perfect.

my post mentioned nothing about the Mezger, it was about the new engine proving itself in the years to come.

To be honest,

I can understand Kreso´s sentiments about users´comments. The fact is that hardly anyone on this forum will have driven the car, let alone experienced its durability yet. Some of you also seem to forget that the Mezger engine took some time to become that reputable piece of technology it is today. Porsche back then was an entirely different company, they just could not afford to build a car or an engine that would not be reliable enough. Engines in general were easier to work on, also by the owner himself. That time has passed, yes I miss that as well because I also believe that the air-cooled 911s had features that were lost in the process... but there are still chances to buy a vintage Porsche and enjoy all those possibilities. 

Nobody forces you to buy a new GT3 if you have doubts about its reliability. Again, I am a huge fan of the Mezger engine but technology has moved on. Not only the basic construction can be improved but so many details as well as peripherals (DME etc.). You can also rest assured that Porsche took a very good look at the Mezger engine when they created the new one but whether one modifies the existing engine or creates a new one from scratch, the effort will not make a big difference. Indeed, there could be some toothing problems but I guess that´s always part of the game. It´s a question how it is dealt with.

In my personal opinion, Porsche had a bad start at the transition to water-cooled engines since the M96/97 for whatever reasons we could name did not provide an improvement over the air-cooled cars in terms of reliability. Technically, this could´ve been possible. Combine that with the marketing- and profit-concious regime at that time and you have a company that appears much, much different than before. I still believe that in recent years, with the advent of Volkswagen, a new management strategy has been established. I am looking forward to the products that come, many recent offers, be it the Cayenne GTS, the 981 Boxster and Cayman variants and now the GT3 are very impressive cars from an engineering point of view. I for myself am very curious how the car will perform when the first journalists and customers can experience it.

By the way, I agree that the 4.0 was sold in far too little numbers. It is a shame that such a magnificent car is hardly available to the public... at reasonable prices... but on the other hand it keeps 3.8 RS prices at a reasonable level as well.

Leawood911:t no one on this forum has a many 911 miles under his/her belt as me.  Period. 
 

mmmm.... you sure about that, I've got 25 years with Mezger 911 as daily driver, does that come close

--

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

It is unfair to criticise the new car before even trying it.  For me it’s a pity that they’ve dropped the manual even if the new PDK is as interesting as its claimed.  But I can’t believe it would have been that hard to engineer both solutions as they’re based on the same gearbox.  Anyone think they ditched the manual because the new 7 speed is so slow and cumbersome to use?

With the steering, we again have to give them the benefit of the doubt until trying it.  Personally I am hopeful but a bit sceptical – after all Porsche promised the standard electric system on the Carreras and 981s was good.  And whilst some people find it OK, its had a universal pasting in the reviews/forums here in the UK (deservedly so IMO).

The 4 wheel steering is very interesting though - I find this one of the least contentious aspects.   The proof will be in driving again.  All this agitation over the new engine puzzles me too.  If it is lighter, potentially more powerful, robust in track use and great sounding (as it probably will be) then hurrah.  I seriously doubt it will turn out to be a dog and in the long run, Porsche will not want engines unique to their road cars, GT cars and race cars.  Its bound to end up racing sooner rather than later.

This is the first 991 I think looks good, even the wheels.  But 20“ diameter seems as silly as ever to me and if the car wasn’t so big and heavy, it wouldn’t need bigger rotors.  My first thought on hearing about the bigger brake size was that it was so that the wheels looked suitably filled (unlike the 981s) rather any genuine technical reason.  Is this heresy? After all, in modern cars the tyres are the limiting factor on stopping, not the brakes.  I guess they might help with cooling and fade resistance but I’m not convinced.

I really hope my fears about the gearbox/steering aren’t borne out otherwise for the first time in my life Porsche will not be making a single car I want.  That’s a bit scary.

Gen II Cayman S

RC:

Manual proved to have only disadvantages in the GT3, they tested a manual version and it was much slower.

Mark my words, this new GT3 will be the most successful GT3 ever in Porsche history because it is fast on the track, it is a good daily driver and it still provides the same "raw" driving feel people expect from a GT3. I don't care if this drive feel is actually engineered, you should drive the Cayenne GTS and compare it to the other Cayenne models, the difference is huge. So I don't care how Porsche achieved this drive feel, it is there, the car is much faster than the previous model, so nothing lost here.

That`s what a 911 sould be!... even a GT3.... 

For you Swissies - I just did the sums on an import..  a UK-supplied, LHD, German-spec car works out at 150k all taxes paid.  This new CO2 sanction/tax on imports works out at 16.7k CHF! 

(I've had my name on a list at a dealer for the last couple of years..)

2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

The new Porsche 911 GT3 unveiled in Geneva...

The new Porsche 911 GT3 unveiled in Geneva -- Porsche Video Link

Enmanuel:

Who's with me on this? I'm sure Onur would agree. 

I like it very much Enmanuel 

This is a perfect combo.

ONUR

THE BEST CAR EVER 

11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

Fantastic vehicle! Love every aspect of it. Since I'm a die hard fan of new tech I'm in the absolute opposite to all tradititionalists and purists who prefer stick shift, older tech etc. But each to its own 

Great news that the rear badging is not aligned with the Carrera models with the 911 prefix. I thought they'd end up with the "911 GT3" badge at the rear and I'm glad they didn't follow the same route introduced with the 991 range. The turbo will probably only have the "turbo" at the back.

Current: 991 C2S Basalt Black/Black - PDK, PSE, SPASM, SportChrono, etc.
Sold: 997.2 C2S Meteor Grey/Black - PDK, PSE, LSD, SportChrono, etc.
Sold: 997.1 C2S Black/Black - PSE, PCCB, -20mm/LSD, Short-shifter, SportChrono, etc.

Porsche 991 GT3 photos from Geneva...

Porsche 991 GT3 photos from Geneva -- Evo Link

That would be my combo I think......Classic GT3

2013 Porsche 991 GT3 -- Geneva photo gallery...

2013 Porsche 991 GT3 -- Geneva photo gallery -- Autoblog Link

TB993tt:

Leawood911:t no one on this forum has a many 911 miles under his/her belt as me.  Period. 
 

mmmm.... you sure about that, I've got 25 years with Mezger 911 as daily driver, does that come close

--I stared at age 15!  I am 49 now.  34 yearsof Porsche ownership - seven Porsches starting with a 1977 2.7!  And you guys know how I put on miles!  20 hours at a time.

Comes with being born near Frankfurt in Sept. 1963.  My first ride was in Mr Pricehorn's Porsche.  I understand he is now an Austrian Politician.

 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over