Crown

sidicks:

RC:

nberry:

Christian, the Gt3 is a drivers car and the TTS is a very fast salon. Don't forget I owed a 997.2TT and I know how it drives.

Regarding your 200 mph comment, I wish you the "BEST OF LUCK" while at that speed.

Nick, now I really can't take you seriously anymore. I just wish we could meet somewhere and you'd be very surprised. With the same tires, the Turbo S annihilates the GT3 on the track but I guess this is something you don't want to hear. 

Except the tests don't say that!

 

Apparently you haven't read the Sport Auto Supertest, haven't you?! 

Even Porsche claims 7:25 for the GT3 and 7:27 for the Turbo S with street tires for the Nordschleife. With semi-slicks/UHP tires, the Turbo S is faster than the GT3. In Hockenheim, Kleiner Kurs, the difference was almost one second.

We discussed these facts weeks and months ago in every detail but I guess some people, surprisingly Nick too, seem only to read what they pleases them. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

sidicks:

RC:

nberry:

Christian, the Gt3 is a drivers car and the TTS is a very fast salon. Don't forget I owed a 997.2TT and I know how it drives.

Regarding your 200 mph comment, I wish you the "BEST OF LUCK" while at that speed.

Nick, now I really can't take you seriously anymore. I just wish we could meet somewhere and you'd be very surprised. With the same tires, the Turbo S annihilates the GT3 on the track but I guess this is something you don't want to hear. 

Except the tests don't say that!

 

Apparently you haven't read the Sport Auto Supertest, haven't you?! 

Even Porsche claims 7:25 for the GT3 and 7:27 for the Turbo S with street tires for the Nordschleife. With semi-slicks/UHP tires, the Turbo S is faster than the GT3. In Hockenheim, Kleiner Kurs, the difference was almost one second.

We discussed these facts weeks and months ago in every detail but I guess some people, surprisingly Nick too, seem only to read what they pleases them. 

That's one test in which we KNOW that the GT3 was under-performing, as the ECU had problems and they couldn't do a full test. (And we can see from the video that the test driver didn't appear to be very good at extracting the best time from the car...)!

sidicks:

RC:

sidicks:

RC:

nberry:

Christian, the Gt3 is a drivers car and the TTS is a very fast salon. Don't forget I owed a 997.2TT and I know how it drives.

Regarding your 200 mph comment, I wish you the "BEST OF LUCK" while at that speed.

Nick, now I really can't take you seriously anymore. I just wish we could meet somewhere and you'd be very surprised. With the same tires, the Turbo S annihilates the GT3 on the track but I guess this is something you don't want to hear. 

Except the tests don't say that!

 

Apparently you haven't read the Sport Auto Supertest, haven't you?! 

Even Porsche claims 7:25 for the GT3 and 7:27 for the Turbo S with street tires for the Nordschleife. With semi-slicks/UHP tires, the Turbo S is faster than the GT3. In Hockenheim, Kleiner Kurs, the difference was almost one second.

We discussed these facts weeks and months ago in every detail but I guess some people, surprisingly Nick too, seem only to read what they pleases them. 

That's one test in which we KNOW that the GT3 was under-performing, as the ECU had problems and they couldn't do a full test. (And we can see from the video that the test driver didn't appear to be very good at extracting the best time from the car...)!

Porsche hasn't found any problems with that car, JFYI. Also the criticism at Horst v. Saurma happens all the time when someone isn't happy with the results. 

Take the same driver with the same skills and put him in the GT3 and the Turbo S: He will be always faster in the Turbo S, no matter where and even on street tires. The reason is simple and has already been pointed out by Nick: The Turbo S is easier to drive at the limit for an experienced driver, the GT3 is more of a challenge for the same driver. Something Horst v. Saurma actually has proven pretty well. 

Like I said before, if people don't like the results, well... 

Stupid question: When did you drive a GT3 lately or when did you do a direct comparison with a Turbo S? Just curious. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Did not read the discussion, but no one should be too surprised since it was a similar result with the 997.2 GT3 (Nordschleife 7:40) versus Turbo S (Nordschleife 7:32) with Michelin Sport Cup tires.

Nothing beats an overdose of torque

2010 997.2 C2S | Carrara White | Manual | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE | OZ Superforgiata
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

Previous
2008 997.1 C4S | Guards Red | Manual | PSE | Bilstein PSS10 | H&R Roll Bars | Dension 500
2007 997.1 Turbo | Meteor Gray | Manual | Bilstein PSS10 | Cargraphic Stage 2 | Dension 500
2005 987.1 Boxster S | Arctic Silver | Manual | OZ Ultraleggera | H&R Cup Suspension | H&R Roll Bars | Sachs Racing Clutch | Recaro Shells
2005 997.1 C2S | Atlas Gray | Manual | PSE | Sport Suspension (-20mm)

I really don't understand where the problem is: The GT3 is actually a different type of car for a different type of customer. The Turbo S is more of a ultrafast daily driver, most Turbo S drivers would never take their car to the track and if they do, maybe just for a couple of rounds for fun, nothing really serious. While the GT3 driver would probably enjoy more track days and more rounds and take everything more seriously of course. This is what this car has been made for, even if it is a better daily driver than before.

This discussion started as a doubt regarding the straight line results in that italian car magazine, not regarding track results but look where we are now. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

I really don't understand where the problem is

Probably because 99% of the people involved in this discussion never drove either car 

2010 997.2 C2S | Carrara White | Manual | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE | OZ Superforgiata
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

Previous
2008 997.1 C4S | Guards Red | Manual | PSE | Bilstein PSS10 | H&R Roll Bars | Dension 500
2007 997.1 Turbo | Meteor Gray | Manual | Bilstein PSS10 | Cargraphic Stage 2 | Dension 500
2005 987.1 Boxster S | Arctic Silver | Manual | OZ Ultraleggera | H&R Cup Suspension | H&R Roll Bars | Sachs Racing Clutch | Recaro Shells
2005 997.1 C2S | Atlas Gray | Manual | PSE | Sport Suspension (-20mm)

bluelines:

RC:

I really don't understand where the problem is

Probably because 99% of the people involved in this discussion never drove either car 

Which is unfortunate because both are wonderful sports cars and I would own a GT3 too in a heartbeat if I could afford both, the Turbo S and a GT3. The sound of the GT3 in the upper rev range is pure aural sex.  No kidding. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Interesting Italian article.  I can certainly see how over certain speeds the GT3 can be quicker - given weight,gearing and still some Turbo lag (not mentioned in the discussion but still present). 

For this reason the Gt3 has a certain amount of appeal to me and Porsche is showing us a perfect example of the characters of these two fine cars given the results and discussion.  In the end nothing substitutes for the shove of torque to excess which only the turbo can provide.  I don't have the balls to rev the Gt3 to 9K on the streets to go fast but I do have the cunning to extract boost sliently and in buckets at the drop of a hat on the street in the turbo.  Boost rules in my book. 

RC - speak softly and carry a big stick - there is no need to get into a pissing contest AT ALL.  Accept that there is clearly some Turbo lag, extra weight to motivate and more mechanical work to do (due to the gearing) which is likely the cause for a short delay and confusing numbers.  For example the 40-200 figure is with both cars starting from that speed not with them blasting through that speed with full boost on tap.

BTW - do the math on the gearing and you will have a hard time figuring out why the GT3 is not MUCH faster yet (Torque is of course the answer).

Christian, no need to defend the TTS. I have no doubt it is faster depending on the venue. I also agree that the TTS is easier to drive. That said, the GT3 is designed for fun driving. I have no doubt that driving the GT3 is much more interesting, exciting and stir the passion of any car enthusiast. That is why I bought the car. 

nberry:

Christian, no need to defend the TTS. I have no doubt it is faster depending on the venue. I also agree that the TTS is easier to drive. That said, the GT3 is designed for fun driving. I have no doubt that driving the GT3 is much more interesting, exciting and stir the passion of any car enthusiast. That is why I bought the car. 

What I love about the GT3 is the engine and the whole drive feel. The car feels very connected and direct and the engine is just pure magic and revving over 7000 rpm gives me the heebie-jeebies. The GT3 actually reminds me a little bit of the 918 in that regard but the sound is just intoxicating and many GT3 owners will actually drive the car in lower gears than necessary most of the time, just to listen to the "music". 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

If I remember correctly Porsche also claimed a NBR time of 7:24 for the Turbo S with the GT3 UHP tires vs the 7:25 for the GT3. One second difference  - that is not exactly what I would call annihilate. On less power hungry tracks the GT3 would still be faster on the same tyres and as pointed out before it does not really make sense comparing a standard car to a modified one. Also bear in mind that when doing a few laps the GT3 times would fade less because of less wear on tyres and brakes because of lower weight.

I actually plan to switch from the GT3 to a Turbo S with the facelift just to experience that Torque. That said, one must not be blind to the horses for courses aspect here. The Turbo S is clearly the better all weather car and faster in a straight line. The GT3 is the better (and faster over a few laps) track car with the more emotional sound track and probably much lower depreciation too.

Porsche 991 GT3 driven by Walter Röhrl...

Porsche 991 GT3 driven by Walter Röhrl -- Video Link

Porsche 991 GT3 on Track in Vairano, Italy...

Porsche 991 GT3 on Track in Vairano, Italy -- Video Link

Porsche 991 GT3 on Track in Vairano, Italy -- Video Link 2

Caymanisking:

If I remember correctly Porsche also claimed a NBR time of 7:24 for the Turbo S with the GT3 UHP tires vs the 7:25 for the GT3. One second difference  - that is not exactly what I would call annihilate. On less power hungry tracks the GT3 would still be faster on the same tyres and as pointed out before it does not really make sense comparing a standard car to a modified one. Also bear in mind that when doing a few laps the GT3 times would fade less because of less wear on tyres and brakes because of lower weight.

The numbers are official Porsche numbers, achieved by the respective development test drivers who know the specific car inside out. This is why I trust Horst v. Saurma and his achievements in the Sport Auto Supertest more than factory achievements. Same goes to Christian Gebhardt who is also working for Sport Auto. A skilled driver will always be faster in the 991 Turbo S, simply because this car has insane traction, not even getting started on the torque. The setup is very good to get near the Turbo S's limit, the GT3 is a different story, simply because the emphasis has been put on extreme driving fun and...how to put it...a challenge. The setup may be perfected over time but I actually think that many GT3 drivers will love it because the car feels more difficult to drive at the limit. This actually is a challenge for them (nothing I would want but to each his own, I guess).

I actually plan to switch from the GT3 to a Turbo S with the facelift just to experience that Torque. That said, one must not be blind to the horses for courses aspect here. The Turbo S is clearly the better all weather car and faster in a straight line. The GT3 is the better (and faster over a few laps) track car with the more emotional sound track and probably much lower depreciation too.

I don't think you can generalize that easy but yes, the Turbo S is the better all weather car. Actually I think that the GT3 is the best and most affordable fun car Porsche ever built and if drag racing isn't your hobby, the car is just perfect. This is also a car you can build some advanced skills, for example participating in various driver education courses, for example with the Porsche driving school. The GT3 however is not the right car for just having some weekend fun on deserted country roads, the car is difficult to handle at the limit, not that anyone should, could or would experience the limit of this car on a public road. You get my point.  That said, the GT3 is basically a track car for the street. Most drivers won't drive it on the track most of the time. If you give this car the respect it deserves, it will provide great fun. If not, well, despite the PSM and the electronic differential,you will crash it. For sure.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Porsche 991 GT3 on road...

...looking awesome in black! 

RC - Funny how this discussion has gotton SO out of hand. Now you are using words like "annihilate". Nice. Obviously this has really hit a nerve with you. Not worth it IMO.

People here will disagree on some topics and agree on others. Some believe that NBR times, especially those of HVS are the final word, while others (like me) like to look at more than one test. The Ring, IMO, is very dangerous which is why I also like to look at other track results. The GT3 has always been Porsche's track car. But now you disagree based on one test. Other tests, including the Italian one had different outcomes. We all choose to believe what we want. And that's fine by me.

Some believe in all VBOX results, while I take the more optimistic figures along with the poor results with a grain of salt. Some also believe in all YouTube videos while I don't. Better to use more controlled testing procedures done by reputable magazines. Take your car to a dragstrip and let us know what you achieve. It may surprise you - in a negative way that is. Or run your car on a "measured KM" and see how you do.  

The Turbo S is the FASTER car. No many here are disputing this. But even Chris Harris obtained less than desirable results for the Turbo S. Not every car will perform the same, especially on different pavements or weather conditions. However, you make it sound like the GT3 isn't even in the ballpark - well, I respectfully disagree. It weights almost 200kg less, has far shorter gearing with approximately only 60hp less at the wheels (on a dyno). A 2wd drive car will always be more efficient than a 4wd one. 

Porsche won't be happy with you if they learn about your GT3 bashing. Best to let all future GT3 owners enjoy their cars. You made your choice - be happy. And let's all get along. LOL

mp:

RC - Funny how this discussion has gotton SO out of hand. Now you are using words like "annihilate". Nice. Obviously this has really hit a nerve with you. Not worth it IMO.

People here will disagree on some topics and agree on others. Some believe that NBR times, especially those of HVS are the final word, while others (like me) like to look at more than one test. The Ring, IMO, is very dangerous which is why I also like to look at other track results. The GT3 has always been Porsche's track car. But now you disagree based on one test. Other tests, including the Italian one had different outcomes. We all choose to believe what we want. And that's fine by me.

Some believe in all VBOX results, while I take the more optimistic figures along with the poor results with a grain of salt. Some also believe in all YouTube videos while I don't. Better to use more controlled testing procedures done by reputable magazines. Take your car to a dragstrip and let us know what you achieve. It may surprise you - in a negative way that is. Or run your car on a "measured KM" and see how you do.  

The Turbo S is the FASTER car. No many here are disputing this. But even Chris Harris obtained less than desirable results for the Turbo S. Not every car will perform the same, especially on different pavements or weather conditions. However, you make it sound like the GT3 isn't even in the ballpark - well, I respectfully disagree. It weights almost 200kg less, has far shorter gearing with approximately only 60hp less at the wheels (on a dyno). A 2wd drive car will always be more efficient than a 4wd one. 

Porsche won't be happy with you if they learn about your GT3 bashing. Best to let all future GT3 owners enjoy their cars. You made your choice - be happy. And let's all get along. LOL

mp:

RC - Funny how this discussion has gotton SO out of hand. Now you are using words like "annihilate". Nice. Obviously this has really hit a nerve with you. Not worth it IMO.

The problem is that if you experience a comparison with two different GT3 live and just recently and someone comes up with BS about close performance and whatever, yes, I really get mad. 

People here will disagree on some topics and agree on others. Some believe that NBR times, especially those of HVS are the final word, while others (like me) like to look at more than one test. The Ring, IMO, is very dangerous which is why I also like to look at other track results. The GT3 has always been Porsche's track car. But now you disagree based on one test. Other tests, including the Italian one had different outcomes. We all choose to believe what we want. And that's fine by me.

You don't seem, like many others outside Germany, to understand the Supertest and it's goal. Why do you think this Supertest has such a good reputation? The results are comparable. I don't want to bash italian car magazines but their results in the past haven't been always accurate. I remember one magazine (was it Quattroruote?) testing the 458 Italia at under 10 seconds from 0-200 kph and with a fabulous track time compared to the 997 Turbo S. At the same time, I was witnessing a comparison (for development purposes) between the 458 Italia and the 997 Turbo S and the Porsche won each time. Many YouTube videos actually prove that too but one italian car magazine made the difference. 

Some believe in all VBOX results, while I take the more optimistic figures along with the poor results with a grain of salt. Some also believe in all YouTube videos while I don't. Better to use more controlled testing procedures done by reputable magazines. Take your car to a dragstrip and let us know what you achieve. It may surprise you - in a negative way that is. Or run your car on a "measured KM" and see how you do.  

Our usual driving is less scientific than one would think. We take some cars for a ride, sometimes there are cars involved which shouldn't be even involved and I will never mention them here. One thing is for sure though: Whenever we do our fun rides, we experience the performance of the cars involved. One is faster, one is slower, the difference is sometimes pretty small but sometimes huge. This is what I call real life experience. So if two (2) GT3 can't even keep up with my 991 Turbo S, in no speed range and on the contrary, over a speed of 230 kph, they start disappearing, I think I can clearly make a statement. Even if that italian car magazine seems to come to a different result. Yes, my car may be in a good shape, I won't deny it but one GT3 should have been in a good shape too (if you get the point), so I think things were pretty fair and square.

The Turbo S is the FASTER car. No many here are disputing this. But even Chris Harris obtained less than desirable results for the Turbo S. Not every car will perform the same, especially on different pavements or weather conditions. However, you make it sound like the GT3 isn't even in the ballpark - well, I respectfully disagree. It weights almost 200kg less, has far shorter gearing with approximately only 60hp less at the wheels (on a dyno). A 2wd drive car will always be more efficient than a 4wd one. 

Chris Harris obtained what? Have you heard something I haven't from him? From all I heard, he liked the Turbo S better than the GT3. Yes, the GT3 isn't even in the ballpark of the Turbo S and it is not surprising: The GT3 never was in the same ballpark when it came to straight line acceleration and now, for the first time, the GT3 is even slower on the track. So what? The Turbo S costs 60 grand more and how many Turbo S owners will actually put UHP tires on their car? It doesn't matter, unless you really have unrealistic expectations from the GT3, which some people really seem to have (judging by the many negative comments after the Sport Auto Supertest). The GT3 performed just fine, so did Horst v. Saurma but the GT3 is no GT2 RS and not even a GT3 RS.

Porsche won't be happy with you if they learn about your GT3 bashing. Best to let all future GT3 owners enjoy their cars. You made your choice - be happy. And let's all get along. LOL

Porsche knows exactly where I am standing and I think the reason why they always made me happy is the fact that I am an honest guy and always give them a fair piece of mind. You should read my early comments about the GT3 where I defended the usage of PDK and the new engine. Even when production was delayed, I still defended the car because I know how much development work has been put into this project. Same goes to the new 991 Turbo S btw..

If you really think I am bashing the GT3, you don't seem to understand the language I am speaking. Is my English really that bad?! 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Porsche 991 GT3 on road...

 

 

 

So, if you can put TTS wheels on a GT3, by the same logic you could spec a TTS with GT3 wheels. And that combo in white would be killer. 

Also that GT3 looks insanely good, still prefer the standard wheels though. 

I wonder if Porsche will ever make 5-lug wheels optional on the GT3 again.  So many users would prefer this. 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Enmanuel:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Porsche 991 GT3 on road...

 

 

 

So, if you can put TTS wheels on a GT3, by the same logic you could spec a TTS with GT3 wheels. And that combo in white would be killer. 

Also that GT3 looks insanely good, still prefer the standard wheels though. 

Porsche could easily make GT3 summer wheels rims in the necessary width and offset sizes for the 991 Turbo S but so far, they don't seem to do it. I like the GT3 rim design much more than the Turbo S rim design, so maybe there is hope. I was planning to leave the Turbo S rims like they are but in the end, I think I am going to have them painted in (matte) black. Saw a factory pre-production Turbo S with black Turbo S rims and it looked gorgeous.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

come on guys. this thread is about 991 GT3s.... 

personally I dont care which car is faster. and a lot of the buyers dont either. if you happen to own either one of them, of course you have a million reasons to do so... so no point bashing others. 

and it seems RC never looses an argument on this forum.  he must hv been a lawyer or something... 

 the TTS is undoubtedly the faster car in everyday, all -weather condition. that's why the TTS was created!

but the GT3 is the one I would like to drive home in.   I have driven both 997TT and 997.2 GT3, the GT3 excites me in a way no car manages to do. and that's what a GT3 is about.... 

and if I hv the cash, I will get a GT3 + a GTR.   done.

--

BMW 1 M + C63 (gone).   997.2 GT3

It really looks like people have lost the plot here. Why are grown men debating the performance stats to this degree?

For me, it's all about excitement and the experience of driving. In that respect, of the current 991 range, I prefer the 991 GT3 whether it's a few tenths of a second faster or slower.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

+1 minus the GTR

Grant:

I wonder if Porsche will ever make 5-lug wheels optional on the GT3 again.  So many users would prefer this. 

New option which floats around the factory OPH = Obnoxious Porsche Habits

Another reason Why I'm trying to stay away from Porsche and their unnecessary mandatory features.

easy_rider911:

It really looks like people have lost the plot here. Why are grown men debating the performance stats to this degree?

For me, it's all about excitement and the experience of driving. In that respect, of the current 991 range, I prefer the 991 GT3 whether it's a few tenths of a second faster or slower.

+1

IMO the TTS and the GT3 are completely different cars with almost opposite focus. The fact that a similar performance is achieved is only logical seeing that they are based on the same car, but the delivery of this performance is engineered in a different way for each of them. it all depends on the way you want the car to feel and that´s why different variants exist. I agree with the others that have said an argument about which is better is pointless. 

RC:

Chris Harris obtained what? Have you heard something I haven't from him? From all I heard, he liked the Turbo S better than the GT3. Yes, the GT3 isn't even in the ballpark of the Turbo S and it is not surprising: The GT3 never was in the same ballpark when it came to straight line acceleration and now, for the first time, the GT3 is even slower on the track. So what? The Turbo S costs 60 grand more and how many Turbo S owners will actually put UHP tires on their car? It doesn't matter, unless you really have unrealistic expectations from the GT3, which some people really seem to have (judging by the many negative comments after the Sport Auto Supertest). The GT3 performed just fine, so did Horst v. Saurma but the GT3 is no GT2 RS and not even a GT3 RS

RC against the rest 
I'll rather stay away from this frontline.

But still I would like to know where did you hear Chris Harris stating that he like likes the Turbo S more then the GT3?

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

Best of DRIVE 2013 with Chris Harris and Mike Spinelli...

Mike Spinelli: "Favourite car for daily, track and weekends?"

Chris Harris: "I'd have a GT3."

Best of DRIVE 2013 -- Video Link

CH In 2014: I'd have a Speciale and I don't miss the manual at all

RC:

Enmanuel:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Porsche 991 GT3 on road...

 

 

 

So, if you can put TTS wheels on a GT3, by the same logic you could spec a TTS with GT3 wheels. And that combo in white would be killer. 

Also that GT3 looks insanely good, still prefer the standard wheels though. 

Porsche could easily make GT3 summer wheels rims in the necessary width and offset sizes for the 991 Turbo S but so far, they don't seem to do it. I like the GT3 rim design much more than the Turbo S rim design, so maybe there is hope. I was planning to leave the Turbo S rims like they are but in the end, I think I am going to have them painted in (matte) black. Saw a factory pre-production Turbo S with black Turbo S rims and it looked gorgeous.

Probably easy explanation. The set of winter tires comes on TTS rims. I am sure GT3 rims will fit nicely on TTS. Shame it's not an option for me as I have hubs with bolts.