Crown

Lets wait for the tests and see.

I personally like PTS much more especially soon there will be facelifted even better PTS

But why is 7speed auto of AMG is worse than 8speed in RS6?

7speed AMG auto is over 5 years old design that is up to current generation of the best 8speed auto boxes that are produced by Aisin(used by Porsche in Cayenne and Panamera) and ZF(Audi, BMW and Jaguar). In Sport mode 8speed automatic in RS6 Avant is almost as good as PDK in Sport mode in PTS.

hunterone:

The lower front bumper reminds a little bit on bmw 4 series concept. Maybe some design stealing vice versa :)

but it is nice looking and when the (straight line)performance is true .... 

I think on pictures it looks hideous. There are far too many references to BMW in those current models (the A-class directly targets the 1-series BMW, the E63 sedan and coupe emulate the visual impression of M5 and M6). From a distance, the above car looks very much like the corresponding BMW variants.

To be honest, I am very disappointed with MB´s current design path. There are some highlights once in a while (SLS, A-class rear end) but especially the headlight styling is below par.

Too bad, since I think that especially their current V8 engines are marvelous!

your truth. agree

KresoF1:

Faster where? In straight line? Lets wait for first tests...

Very likely.

On the track? I do not think so.

Definitely not.

BTW, E63 engine is bigger in displacement then PTS or RS6 Avant engines. 7 Speed auto bix that AMG is using is not in the same leagues as PDK in PTS or 8 speed auto in RS6 Avant.

I would personally choose PTS or RS6 Avant any time over new E63 AMG S.

Don't underestimate the new E63 AMG with AWD. I am pretty sure that this will be the hell of a competition to the PTS and RS6. Especially since Mercedes also provides huge rebates in Germany and interesting lease offers.

One thing is for sure though: Porsche needs to up their game with the Panamera because the competition is getting stronger and there is no justification for paying 50k EUR more for a Panamera with worse performance (PTS vs. new E63 AMG). I will certainly not go for the next Panamera generation if Mercedes builds the cheaper and faster car. Track performance isn't that important on a sedan.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I hope Porsche will do the proper facerlift of Panamera to up their game with PTS.

artur777:

I hope Porsche will do the proper facerlift of Panamera to up their game with PTS.

I'm not so sure the power bump will be that high but the next generation will have a lower weight. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Panamera is heavier than E-Class isn't it? Weight reduction will only get them in one line

We need to have power bump as well to compete in straight line. And better for us to see PTS with 580 hp after facelift for example and PT with 540 hp. 

On the track PTS will be much faster - it's my gut feeling

RC:

KresoF1:

Faster where? In straight line? Lets wait for first tests...

Very likely.

On the track? I do not think so.

Definitely not.

BTW, E63 engine is bigger in displacement then PTS or RS6 Avant engines. 7 Speed auto bix that AMG is using is not in the same leagues as PDK in PTS or 8 speed auto in RS6 Avant.

I would personally choose PTS or RS6 Avant any time over new E63 AMG S.

Don't underestimate the new E63 AMG with AWD. I am pretty sure that this will be the hell of a competition to the PTS and RS6. Especially since Mercedes also provides huge rebates in Germany and interesting lease offers.

One thing is for sure though: Porsche needs to up their game with the Panamera because the competition is getting stronger and there is no justification for paying 50k EUR more for a Panamera with worse performance (PTS vs. new E63 AMG). I will certainly not go for the next Panamera generation if Mercedes builds the cheaper and faster car. Track performance isn't that important on a sedan.

Perhaps, in Germany things are different, but in many other areas Mercedes E class is viewed upon as a middle class car/taxi and few would pay for the AMG version in spite of its theoretically superior speed and better value for money vis a vis the Porsche.

As I see it people will be willing to pay for the Panamera (which is no slouch anyway) because of its higher brand image and its unique shape. I know that the  AMG is rather bespoke but it is still a part of the E class range.

--

"Form follows function"

CLS AMG is the way to go .. especially with Lux Package as the interior is almost completely covered with leather, and the roof in alcantara ..

beautiful interior with Lux Pack

artur777:

Panamera is heavier than E-Class isn't it? Weight reduction will only get them in one line

We need to have power bump as well to compete in straight line. And better for us to see PTS with 580 hp after facelift for example and PT with 540 hp. 

 

On the track PTS will be much faster - it's my gut feeling

This is actually pretty embarrassing for Porsche. The E63 AMG PP (current version, not new one) weights 1941 kg (measured by Sport Auto). The Panamera Turbo S weights 2024 kg (also measued by Sport Auto, car with PCCB). This means that the Mercedes is 83 kg lighter than the Panamera. Ouch. The AWD surely takes it tribute (and probably will on the new E63 AMG facelift too) but still, Porsche is a traditional sports car company and even their sedans and SUVs shouldn't be heavier than comparable competition models. 

Also interesting: The E63 AMG PP seems also to be 22 kg lighter than the BMW M5 (Sport Auto, same review).

Overall, I think that by adding the AWD option, AMG put a lot of pressure on Panamera sales. We will see how this plays out but I think I said it before: With AWD, I would have probably gone for the BMW M5 because the overall price difference to the PTS was a whopping 70-80k EUR. Ouch. I would have also considered the E63 AMG with AWD.

The Panamera is way too expensive for the straight line performance is delivers, this is something Porsche definitely needs to care of, latest with the next generation. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I see your point Christian

I think that E63 AMG S would put pressure on Audi RS6 sales as well not only on PTS.

I think Porsche has enough time before Panamera facelift to fix everything and deliver outstanding product in terms of niowadays competition. Agree?

I will wrote this 3.6s for 0-100km/h for E63 S sounds little bit optimistic IMHO. First tests in late summer will prove if my scepticism is justified or not... Do not forget that AWD will bring around 80kg at least to overall E63 S wieght. With AWD it wont be any lighter then PTS.

RS6 Avant is aimed at different costumers then E63T S. And RS7 will be presented very soon.

The facelift is ready, there is nothing to "fix" anymore. If you are referring to the next generation, I agree. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

KresoF1:

I will wrote this 3.6s for 0-100km/h for E63 S sounds little bit optimistic IMHO. First tests in late summer will prove if my scepticism is justified or not... Do not forget that AWD will bring around 80kg at least to overall E63 S wieght. With AWD it wont be any lighter then PTS.

RS6 Avant is aimed at different costumers then E63T S. And RS7 will be presented very soon.

You have a point here but I also know that AMG is quite eager to spit into Porsche's performance soup, especially when it comes to straight line performance. There had been lots of discussions at AMG if they should go the AWD approach or not but I think they made the right decision, especially since the AWD is optional (good idea).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

but it appears that 585 PS is only available with 4WD on the AMGs

RC:

Also interesting: The E63 AMG PP seems also to be 22 kg lighter than the BMW M5 (Sport Auto, same review).

Keep in mind m5 100liter tank e63 70liter as well. M5 steel brakes e63 obtion carbon. pana turbo /s has also 100liter tank..

But i agree the m5 got to heavy compaired to its older borther.

I see the e63 4matic s amg (as well the new cls 4matic s amg) as a hard nut for the upcoming rs6/Rs7. Rs6 isnt even out yet and the quattro company must bring a rs6plus to at least keep up with competition

Wonder if Audi didnt saw that coming.

For us potential customers, it is definitely getting more interesting. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

My dealer has just told me that he has received the confirmation by Porsche that the small Panamera is coming ....

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

My dealer has just told me that he has received the confirmation by Porsche that the small Panamera is coming ....

According to rumors, the "Pajun" already got the green light last year. 

I don't know...I heard that many dealers aren't too happy with the Macan already (cheaper model, more room needed, probably appeals to non-typical Porsche customers and issues with the second hand market and customers later on, etc.). I can see the same concerns with the Pajun.

A real challenge for marketing and dealers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Kreso F1,

CLS 63 AMG S will compete with RS7 and PTS

And it is also 0-100 for 3.6 secs 

I see than AMG decided to push directly against RS and PTS with their new AMG-S AWD models

Next S63 AMG S will finish the battle and will compete with S8 and PTS from the upper segment. S63 AMG S will have about 600 hp I predict. So the market is getting tougher every day

RC:

Gnil:

My dealer has just told me that he has received the confirmation by Porsche that the small Panamera is coming ....

According to rumors, the "Pajun" already got the green light last year. 

I don't know...I heard that many dealers aren't too happy with the Macan already (cheaper model, more room needed, probably appeals to non-typical Porsche customers and issues with the second hand market and customers later on, etc.). I can see the same concerns with the Pajun.

A real challenge for marketing and dealers.

IMHO, Macan and Pajun are aimed to increase overall sales and make Porsche even more mass premium producer

In a way the E63 i not playing in Panamera's playground, a bit smaller also quite a bit cheaper. The E63 is at a segment one step below that of the PTS, a segment Porsche hasn't entered yet.

The incoming S63/S65 AMG will be the one competing with PTS and Porsche still have the edge, I just don't see the Mercedes barges handle NEAR the Porsche.

But this is a wake up call for Porsche, Pajun absolutely has to have the twin turbo V8 in Panamera, whatever el cheapo V6 they sourced from VW is not going to do the job, unless that V6 can make at least 550HP and over 550lb/ft of torque starting at 1500-2000rpm. 

Upcoming S-class will be positioned higher than current one because there will be no Maybach. So they are going to make next S-class even more luxurier and sportier in AMG-S version. Will be very tough competitor and will be cheaper than PTS...

artur777:

Upcoming S-class will be positioned higher than current one because there will be no Maybach. So they are going to make next S-class even more luxurier and sportier in AMG-S version. Will be very tough competitor and will be cheaper than PTS...

The new S class will come in 3 sizes instead of the current 2. The more luxurious "new Pullman" model will be the substitute for Maybach.

--

"Form follows function"

Right you are!

KresoF1:

Faster where? In straight line? Lets wait for first tests...

On the track? I do not think so.

These are no track cars anyway, so their performance on the track is irrelevant to the targetted customers.

RC:

I don't know...I heard that many dealers aren't too happy with the Macan already (cheaper model, more room needed, probably appeals to non-typical Porsche customers and issues with the second hand market and customers later on, etc.). I can see the same concerns with the Pajun.

A real challenge for marketing and dealers.

My dealer has the exact same concerns.  He does not have any more space to show new models...... and all the new customers with the Panamera and Cayenne already have braught a big change in the people he has to deal with 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

pierre:

KresoF1:

Faster where? In straight line? Lets wait for first tests...

On the track? I do not think so.

These are no track cars anyway, so their performance on the track is irrelevant to the targetted customers.

You should check out the AMG Owner's Club forum...if you say what you said now, you will be banned for life. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Gnil:

RC:

I don't know...I heard that many dealers aren't too happy with the Macan already (cheaper model, more room needed, probably appeals to non-typical Porsche customers and issues with the second hand market and customers later on, etc.). I can see the same concerns with the Pajun.

A real challenge for marketing and dealers.

My dealer has the exact same concerns.  He does not have any more space to show new models...... and all the new customers with the Panamera and Cayenne already have braught a big change in the people he has to deal with 

Dealers over here are actually very happy with Panamera and especially Cayenne (most sold Porsche is the Cayenne...) customers but they fear especially the second hand market for the cheaper Cayenne, Boxster/Cayman and soon to come, Macan customers. These are different kind of customers who are coming from a lower income class with sometimes exaggerated expectations to the Porsche brand and/or a different behavior/mentality. Just an example. Tough times ahead for smaller dealers, I can see why the Macan doesn't make them too happy.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4