CloseI'm amazed you chose a car without TPMS, knowing that you aren't a fan of retro-fits and that you feel so strongly about safety. You now have a car which started out as a compromise but is now unusable at high speed too.
Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)
nberry:
A family vehicle should not be a fun vehicle especially for spirited driving. You expose the family to dangers unnecessarily and provide a bad example to your children.Having said that, I understand where both of you are coming from. It is something I would not do and I predict Christian dumps the Panamera in the not too distant future. It is a phase with him just like the C63 was.
Nick...you know how many times I heard that? 
I explained on various occasions why there is no real danger and I also never drive at the limit with the family onboard (actually I don't drive at the limit on public roads at all anymore).
Why would I dump the Panamera? This is a unique car out of 7 cars which has been built by Porsche with custom made turbo chargers and custom programmed software (you remember that issue with the titan turbo chargers) to be able to ship them to waiting customers. The car is fast as hell, technically and quality-wise apparently perfect, so why would I want to get rid of this marvel? 
This is a very unique and fast car and I would be really dumb to get rid of it any time soon, especially since, maybe you remember, I don't have a real sports car in the stable. No more garage queens for me, sorry.
The C63 was kind of a mistake, I got the car in February or March, weather was quite nice and I didn't realize how frustrating the traction issues can be on a daily driver. Otherwise, performance was amazing and yes, if I would have another spot in my garage, I might have kept it but there is no room anymore (garage fits four cars, which is already quite good for the typical German garage ). I am also happy that I get almost the same money I paid for the C63, this is another incentive to get rid of it.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
Budster:
I'm amazed you chose a car without TPMS, knowing that you aren't a fan of retro-fits and that you feel so strongly about safety. You now have a car which started out as a compromise but is now unusable at high speed too.
Maybe you missed the point where I said that the Cayenne GTS will be only used as a daily driver in the city and some short winter trips to the Alps when there is too much snow. Not really much of a chance to drive it very fast but of course the lack of TPMS is a bummer and this also means that I have to check the tire pressure each time I want to drive fast(er) on the Autobahn (which in the past, when there weren't TPMSs available for cars, I did anyway).
I never climb boardwalks or do similar stupid things with my car(s), so the risk of a blowing tire is minimal at best. Steady pressure loss I can sense, this wouldn't be a problem.
I am working on a possible solution which could involve a factory visit but if cost is too high, there is a good aftermarket solution (so I've been told) which I will check on as soon as possible. Over the next two to three months however, the car won't drive faster than 150 kph (run in period), so I have all the time in the world.
I had to take this deal, like I said before...it was only valid for cars in stock.
--
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
nberry:Whoopsy for most fun and excitement in driving a car involves being at the limit or edge. By definition that means almost losing control of the car at speed. You would place your family in that position?
Nick, I already told you many times that I'm not your regular driver, I was a professional racing driver for more than two years and of course I have more experience on fast cars and with race trainings. Then, there is also the eye sight involved (I won't even start the vision sharpness discussion again but any ophthalmologist would understand perfectly what it means to have a 175% vision sharpness), which is very helpful when driving very fast (I can spot everything in detail going on a mile or so along the way, most drivers won't even notice ).
For me, driving in the US is like a sleeping pill. The only challenge is the fact that drivers pass you on all lanes (left and right) and that they don't use their turn signal (which is a common problem in Germany too but I learned to adapt to it).
Driving a Ferrari doesn't mean someone is a good driver, look at Justin Bieber. Everyone can drive fast but some people survive it, even without accidents and others don't. Yes, there is luck involved too but have you ever met anyone who has been lucky for the past 29 years? I doubt it. I always drive as fast as possible, so what are the odds?
It is difficult to understand for amateur drivers, I get it but when you think I am talking BS, maybe you should join a more advanced driver ed event with a professional driver. Then you may understand the difference.
Cheers. 
(Btw: I never drive with my family at the limit and all the stupid stuff I do with my son next to me happens on closed/private streets or large parking lots which I know very well. Even then, never at the limit, you never know... 
Speaking of setting an example for the kids: I don't drink (at all), I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. Also the first thing I will do when the kids get 15 is taking them to the track for driver ed events. I also explain the dangers of fast driving and always tell my son that he shouldn't forget that there is a huge difference between real driving and video games. He has an electric car and an electric ATV (not a toy but a real ATV which goes 60 kph) for the garden, he can already drift very well and you should see how he handles a go-kart. I am prepping them for real life as good as I can.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
nberry:
You can't be serious! The car has everything to do with how you drive especially with children. If a son or daughter ride in a high hp car with either their father or mother driving and they used the car to its fullest extent and are excellent performance car drivers, what do you think the children will do when they become eligible to drive?
Also, once at speed we all know the slightest unexpected road surprise invariably leads to serious injury or death. Alone we risk it because it is fun and accept that we are responsible for our own actions. However, when family is involved, it is a risk we cannot and should never take.
FWIW, I am not sure what you refer to regarding drivers training. Performance driving classes or driver education? If performance driving classes, I have attended several (including the very first Porsche Performance Driving School in the US) with a combined tuition costing in excess of a decent sport car.
Nick I respect your opinion but I think we are talking past each other. Even if I had a KIA as a family car I could be a bad role model to my kids if I drive excessively and like a j@rk. Given that the breaks, suspension, etc. are not set up for that. The kids or any passanger will quite quickly understand that I am "overdriving" the car. Now thake the Panamera. Driving that at reasonable speed, most will not even notice the speed. In my GT3 going 200km/h felt like 100km/h in a Golf.
Also with a high performance car at the same speed as a "normal" car I can assure you I will be in a better position to react to any "road surprise" you mention above. Again better breaks, suspension and engine power will allow for better reactions in my view. Alone by that virtue my kids are clearly "safer" in a Panamera than a KIA.
I am glad to see you invested in your own driving. Part of understanding the limit is also to go beyond the limit in a controlled environment. How else would you learn to react to it 
I for one learn every time I do such an event. By the way there is a new book by Michael Krumm called "Driving on the edge". Everyone on this site who cares about driving cars should read.
RC sorry for taking your thread of topic again but I feel there have been to many of these posts concluding sports car + family = danager. all it actually takes is one bad driver...
Perhaps you are to much guided by the bad driving habits and limited awarness in the US
Germany has always had one of the lowest road fatalities statistics (per population and per number of passenger cars) in the EU and possibly in the world. These in spite of 13.000 kms of autobahnen, part of which are unlimited.
A good road network, driver training, competence, concentration and being free from substances (alcohol, drugs, medication) count for more than the obsession for lethargically low speeds.
--
"Form follows function"
TEE:
RC sorry for taking your thread of topic again but I feel there have been to many of these posts concluding sports car + family = danger. all it actually takes is one bad driver...
The "one bad driver" is actually the only problem I care about, everything else I have handled pretty well.
This is why I watch the traffic in front of me very carefully, I also don't talk to my wife and kids during high speed driving and my focus is 100% on the driving. I can explain this over and over again but apparently it is difficult to understand for those who live in speed limited countries. I get it.
I also have to say that German drivers are usually used to higher speeds, the common speed on the Autobahn over here in 150-170 kph and people are used to fast(er) drivers, so the dangers are much lower than going (illegally) fast in speed limited countries.
I kind of get the feeling that our friends from outside Germany are a little bit brainwashed by the many speeding is dangerous campaigns in their particular countries.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
reginos:
Germany has always had one of the lowest road fatalities statistics (per population and per number of passenger cars) in the EU and possibly in the world. These in spite of 13.000 kms of autobahnen, part of which are unlimited.
A good road network, driver training, competence, concentration and being free from substances (alcohol, drugs, medication) count for more than the obsession for lethargically low speeds.
Very well said but it also depends a lot on the individual driver and driver training.
Why are we talking about driving safety again?
Back to topic: I am going to pick up my Cayenne GTS next Wednesday and I try to post lots of photos end of next week. Run-in won't be difficult this time, the weather over here is not great, so it will be easy to drive slow.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
I've really enjoyed this thread, thanks RC for involving us in your purchase decisions 
You only have 2 kids, why can't you drive a 911 as your "non work" car ?
I guess you will say it is the kids but really what is wrong with stuffing the kids in the back for the shorter journeys, running round locally ? For longer trips you have your new Cayenne which really should suffice with the family on board.
I use my 7GT2 for everyday and ferry at least 2 (of the 3) of the kids round (rear seat conversion) and Cayenne for when everyone needs to be carried. You can still drive the Cayenne at 250 on the Autobahn which is surely enough for a family journey.
I suspect, from reading into some of your comments, that you are getting a little softer in your middle age and are beginning to prefer the PTS experience more than the 911 ? If this is the case you need to get a ride back in a decent turbo 911 and re ignite the passion, tell the kids and wife to back off and keep the adrenalin running, it is good for you, you are too young to hang your boots up
3.9 GT2 2011 make over
TB993tt:
I guess you will say it is the kids but really what is wrong with stuffing the kids in the back for the shorter journeys, running round locally ? For longer trips you have your new Cayenne which really should suffice with the family on board.
I did that, they hate it and so does my wife. Shorter journeys? Our "shorter journeys" on weekends are usually 200-400 km long (forth and back) and my daughter already touches the roof with her head in the rear of a 911.
I use my 7GT2 for everyday and ferry at least 2 (of the 3) of the kids round (rear seat conversion) and Cayenne for when everyone needs to be carried. You can still drive the Cayenne at 250 on the Autobahn which is surely enough for a family journey.
250 is not enough 
...but I get your point. This is why I have the Panamera.
I suspect, from reading into some of your comments, that you are getting a little softer in your middle age and are beginning to prefer the PTS experience more than the 911 ? If this is the case you need to get a ride back in a decent turbo 911 and re ignite the passion, tell the kids and wife to back off and keep the adrenalin running, it is good for you, you are too young to hang your boots up
No, I actually wanted a 991 C4S and I really discussed this a lot with my wife and some friends who have similar problems as I have (customers, business). The 911 is not the right car for me as a daily driver.
I am not getting softer (would I really always order the sportiest versions possible of a car?) regarding cars but I can't drive anything extreme anymore because of the family. A garage queen is out of the question.
Seriously, I thought I already explained this a couple of times in every little detail?!
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
I spent a career around those that told me how good they drive a car and how it was the other guy who was at fault when they were in an accident. I cannot tell you the number of accident reconstruction experts I have consulted and used in litigation to discredit these "terrific" drivers. Nor can do I have the time to discuss the numerous cases where a driver at speed was doing all the right things but could not avoid an unexpected event and ended up with serious injuries or death. It is indisputable that driving at safe speeds is saver than driving at much higher speeds.
Now you all can drink the Kool Aid that my experience and driving ability will get me out of any unexpected road event. My advice to you is sober up. I have seen too much with respect to car accidents to know the only thing that keeps a person from getting in an accident when he/she are driving at speed is dumb LUCK.
nberry:
I spent a career around those that told me how good they drive a car and how it was the other guy who was at fault when they were in an accident. I cannot tell you the number of accident reconstruction experts I have consulted and used in litigation to discredit these "terrific" drivers. Nor can do I have the time to discuss the numerous cases where a driver at speed was doing all the right things but could not avoid an unexpected event and ended up with serious injuries or death. It is indisputable that driving at safe speeds is saver than driving at much higher speeds.
Now you all can drink the Kool Aid that my experience and driving ability will get me out of any unexpected road event. My advice to you is sober up. I have seen too much with respect to car accidents to know the only thing that keeps a person from getting in an accident when he/she are driving at speed is dumb LUCK.
Nick, I am not telling you that I'm a good driver. I am a good driver. Big difference.
I get your point but you don't get mine.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
nberry:
I have never doubted you are a GOOD DRIVER AND A GOOD FAMILY MAN. However, often our hubris blinds us and causes us to do stupid things at the wrong time which can lead to tragic consequences. My business has taught most driving risks are not worth it.
I said I am a good driver, not a good family man (not even sure what this means).
I do not do stupid things in my cars, these times are long over.
My driving is actually safer (healthier) than your wine consumption.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
Not only a "good family man" a great compliment, it is also the best way to live in this world. Good family, good work, and good health are all a man needs. We all have that. Dont see your pointless little bickerings about kids & this n that, thats all bullshit, we all have enough money to buy (lease for RC) the cars we need. Now I dont like the flashy italian stuff not the pompous english (now owned by Indian) cars....I like German cars, BMW for business & porsche for play. My dad gets chauffered in a Merc and so for me its always been an old mans car, & Audi = boring (for me)
So RC, stop ranting on the board and take a few deep breaths and introspect....you will see the answer. But since I am already evolved I can tell you what you need to think about:
- Cayanne GTS - Work
= Panamera TS - parties, family trips
- BMW x3 - wife
- 991 GTS2 or turbo S - private toy for quiet solo drives and therapeutically derived uninhibited driving pleasure.....the best time a man has in a car
Think about it my confused German buddy
One last question: if a 911 is a wrong signal for your costumers (very plausable) wouldn't a low key car ( your Mini for example) be smarter, bussines wise? If you're so sensitive towards bussiness image, why not go the whole 10 yards and downgrade your work DD?
Not saying the Gts is a bad choice, great car. Enjoy it to the fullest.
spudgun:
One last question: if a 911 is a wrong signal for your costumers (very plausable) wouldn't a low key car ( your Mini for example) be smarter, bussines wise? If you're so sensitive towards bussiness image, why not go the whole 10 yards and downgrade your work DD?
Not saying the Gts is a bad choice, great car. Enjoy it to the fullest.
That's a great idea 
RC gets himself a Smart (used one, not too flashy color!), increases prices charged to his customers by about 50% (customers will feel responsible for his welfare because of the new "used" small car and will pay higher prices) and RC uses the resulting profits to buy the new F70 + one Aventador for winter time (AWD)
spudgun:
One last question: if a 911 is a wrong signal for your costumers (very plausable) wouldn't a low key car ( your Mini for example) be smarter, bussines wise? If you're so sensitive towards bussiness image, why not go the whole 10 yards and downgrade your work DD?
Not saying the Gts is a bad choice, great car. Enjoy it to the fullest.
Here comes the funny part: Envy is one problem, pity another one. When I showed up at my business in the Mini for the very first time, some customers asked me what happened to the nice X5 and if business is that bad. No kidding. At some point, people get the wrong idea why business slows down, so there is a thin line between envy and pity and you cannot cross it. They may think that business slowed down because you aren't good at what you are doing, another problem here. The X5 was just the right package, even the C63 was kind of acceptable (people unfortunately recognized it quite often but these customers returned, so no problems here...the C63 was still no 911).
A 911 would send the wrong signal indeed...fun car, car nobody really "needs", not the car of a serious family person, etc. etc. etc. I really talked to my wife and some friends about this a couple of times and everyone agreed that perception-wise, the Cayenne is just perfect. The Cayenne has become "acceptable" in Germany because Porsche did a great job in visually downsizing the shape of the Cayenne and making it less aggressive/massive. You see many Cayenne in Germany, not so many Panamera. My customers also know that I had a Cayenne before the X5, so this would be OK. I really need to be careful with perception and at one point I also realized that customers don't want to listen to your whining, so I stopped telling them that business is more difficult now because of changed laws and tons of new legal requirements. Customers want to feel good and they feel good if there is no envy but also no pity. I think I found the right middle with the Cayenne, at least I hope so. Perception-wise, my wife is always right BUT I have to blame her a little bit that I didn't take a Cayenne Turbo Powerkit in the first place, so I would have only ONE big car. On the other hand, she is right...another garage queen for a couple of fun days per year doesn't make sense, so the combo of a Panamera Turbo S and a Cayenne GTS is, from my perspective, just perfect.
When the Mini goes in 18 months or so, I may reconsider getting a fun car but this also depends on how the business is going and even more how the stock markets evolve.
@Nick: Thanks a lot for the compliment, yes, I am a family man. Yesterday, my wife invited a bunch of her female friends to dinner and I was the only guy sitting among a dozend females gossipping about god and the world. I never felt that helpless in my life but according to my wife and kids, I did well.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
Upsa:
Not only a "good family man" a great compliment, it is also the best way to live in this world. Good family, good work, and good health are all a man needs. We all have that. Dont see your pointless little bickerings about kids & this n that, thats all bullshit, we all have enough money to buy (lease for RC) the cars we need. Now I dont like the flashy italian stuff not the pompous english (now owned by Indian) cars....I like German cars, BMW for business & porsche for play. My dad gets chauffered in a Merc and so for me its always been an old mans car, & Audi = boring (for me)
So RC, stop ranting on the board and take a few deep breaths and introspect....you will see the answer. But since I am already evolved I can tell you what you need to think about:
- Cayanne GTS - Work
= Panamera TS - parties, family trips
- BMW x3 - wife
- 991 GTS2 or turbo S - private toy for quiet solo drives and therapeutically derived uninhibited driving pleasure.....the best time a man has in a car
Think about it my confused German buddy
Yes...this would be the perfect garage for me, no doubt about it.
There are only two problems here: My garage fits only four cars (resizing it isn't an option), it is already full and even if a spot will be come available when the Mini goes, a garage queen (a fun car for a couple of days per year) doesn't make sense. I had one, a 997 RUF 550 and you could count the days I was driving it per year on both hands. Does this make sense? Way too expensive.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
RC:
spudgun:
One last question: if a 911 is a wrong signal for your costumers (very plausable) wouldn't a low key car ( your Mini for example) be smarter, bussines wise? If you're so sensitive towards bussiness image, why not go the whole 10 yards and downgrade your work DD?
Not saying the Gts is a bad choice, great car. Enjoy it to the fullest.
Here comes the funny part: Envy is one problem, pity another one. When I showed up at my business in the Mini for the very first time, some customers asked me what happened to the nice X5 and if business is that bad. No kidding. At some point, people get the wrong idea why business slows down, so there is a thin line between envy and pity and you cannot cross it. They may think that business slowed down because you aren't good at what you are doing, another problem here. The X5 was just the right package, even the C63 was kind of acceptable (people unfortunately recognized it quite often but these customers returned, so no problems here...the C63 was still no 911).
A 911 would send the wrong signal indeed...fun car, car nobody really "needs", not the car of a serious family person, etc. etc. etc. I really talked to my wife and some friends about this a couple of times and everyone agreed that perception-wise, the Cayenne is just perfect. The Cayenne has become "acceptable" in Germany because Porsche did a great job in visually downsizing the shape of the Cayenne and making it less aggressive/massive. You see many Cayenne in Germany, not so many Panamera. My customers also know that I had a Cayenne before the X5, so this would be OK. I really need to be careful with perception and at one point I also realized that customers don't want to listen to your whining, so I stopped telling them that business is more difficult now because of changed laws and tons of new legal requirements. Customers want to feel good and they feel good if there is no envy but also no pity. I think I found the right middle with the Cayenne, at least I hope so. Perception-wise, my wife is always right BUT I have to blame her a little bit that I didn't take a Cayenne Turbo Powerkit in the first place, so I would have only ONE big car. On the other hand, she is right...another garage queen for a couple of fun days per year doesn't make sense, so the combo of a Panamera Turbo S and a Cayenne GTS is, from my perspective, just perfect.
When the Mini goes in 18 months or so, I may reconsider getting a fun car but this also depends on how the business is going and even more how the stock markets evolve.
@Nick: Thanks a lot for the compliment, yes, I am a family man. Yesterday, my wife invited a bunch of her female friends to dinner and I was the only guy sitting among a dozend females gossipping about god and the world. I never felt that helpless in my life but according to my wife and kids, I did well.
I have another idea: maybe you could rent a parking spot close to your company (but out of sight)?
I already tried (finding a parking spot) but I only found two available within 500 m next to my business and both don't fit a 911 (not even a chance for the Panamera). German parking spaces...made for a VW Golf or whatever. 
The whole thing doesn't matter anymore anyway, I pick up the Cayenne GTS on Wednesday.
On the bright side, a friend just sent me his performance log from a Cayenne GTS he tested a couple of months ago. 0-100 kph in 5.8 seconds (not that good) but 0-200 kph in 18.6 seconds, which is quite surprising. He told me that a 991 Carrera 4 Cab which was following, was barely able to pass him on the Autobahn, performance in the 150 to 220 kph range was pretty close.
The decision feels even better now. 
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
reginos:
Congratulations for the GTS. A "saugmotor" has more character. I don't know if you will miss the turbo surge at the very high speeds.
What is the position as regards the TPMS?
Thanks. I won't be able to drive much of a "high speed" in the GTS, so I don't think I am going to miss a Turbo.
The TPMS issue is still in the works, not sure I am going to do a retrofit at the factory because it could be too expensive. There seems to be an aftermarket solution available but I haven't looked into it yet. The car has a run-in period and I do not intend to drive faster than 150 kph for the next couple of weeks, so I have all the time in the world to get more information on a possible third party TPMS product.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
Congratulations Christian on your final choice and for sharing your decision-making process so vividly with us...
If you find an acceptable after-market TPM system, be sure to let Dreamcar in on it - he would be very grateful I'm sure...
"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."
RC:
I already tried (finding a parking spot) but I only found two available within 500 m next to my business and both don't fit a 911 (not even a chance for the Panamera). German parking spaces...made for a VW Golf or whatever.
The whole thing doesn't matter anymore anyway, I pick up the Cayenne GTS on Wednesday.
On the bright side, a friend just sent me his performance log from a Cayenne GTS he tested a couple of months ago. 0-100 kph in 5.8 seconds (not that good) but 0-200 kph in 18.6 seconds, which is quite surprising. He told me that a 991 Carrera 4 Cab which was following, was barely able to pass him on the Autobahn, performance in the 150 to 220 kph range was pretty close.
The decision feels even better now.
The GTS is a very nice car Many congrats
hugo:
Not necessarily for case in hand,the new RS6 seems to me like a good alternative to the Cayenne turbo and the RS4 for the GTS...
My wife hates station wagons...and sedans for that matter too. Only exception: Panamera and Bentley Continental.
Wives... Well, actually I just realized I am a Porsche guy through and through, so adding another Porsche to the garage was a no-brainer for me. 
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
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