Crown

bridggar:

Incidentally, at what price do folks think a 2wd GTS would make sense given the sub £70k price(s) of 991 S? Although there aren't many of them, they still seem to be £60k-70k within the OPC network, would mid £50k's make them a bargain?

The first sub £60k GTS I've seen is on the Porsche used car website. Guards red with PDK at OPC Glasgow. Shouldn't think it will be long before you can bag a good one for mid £50k.

http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/uk/clients.show_car?sid_=66687306NXTJXK56WGK6AT8LM7BSO19&pnr_=1&lnr_=9&caller_=

@ easy : GTS models seem to be holding their value comparatively well, I think you've got a bit of a wait for one to come down to £45k - even in this depressed market, at least one through the Porsche network, and I wouldn't buy a used Porsche anywhere else. That money will just get you a good early 997/2 non S.

--

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. - Albert Einstein

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

FWIW, I'm not waiting for the prices to come down to buy one ... I have no plans :)

I'm very happy with what I currently have ;)

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

dreamcar:

All of which can be retro-fitted. Must admit the Leeds car, in my favourite aqua blue that does have all that equipment is by far my choice of the cars on offer - but not at £80k.

 Too late, I got that one ;-)

I guess spec and color play a large part.. but yes cars are not holding up too well.. if the economy picks up maybe it will slow down. But at some price point there will be somebody to pick up a bargain.. really well-off people are still well-off.. they are just getting better value for the money at the moment. 

For the Guildford car... I don't think you can retro-fit sports chrono let's not kid ourselves, how on earth they are going to install active engine mounts come on... they don't even accept to retro-fit parking sensors ! And for the sports exhaust in the last 997.2 we were talking close to 3k at OPC prices to have it fitted.. can't be that different now. Assuming that it is already available for retro-fit which I am not sure about.. To give you an idea when I look for a 991 in the car locator I tick the box of sports exhaust.. would not even have shown that one.  

If you have a car without sports exhaust and without sports chrono.. and in RED.. well it's going to be more difficult to sell. That's a given. Both launch cars with most option ticked that were around (platinum silver at Mayfair) and now the aqua blue (in Leeds)  have sold. Probably not at asking price, but not at 65k either.. 

I hopefully take delivery of mine pretty soon, after they finish adding a few bits and pieces that will set her off nicely.

easy_rider911:

I wouldn't pay more than £45k for an early GTS.

Easy - I paid just over £90K for my fully loaded 'early' GTS some 20 months ago.  I've clocked 11,500 miles during this time and fully complied with break-in and general running recommendations.

Do you honestly think I'd part with it for a half of the original price...? 

This car is a keeper and a gem of a 911.  It is also very rare and, to some peoples minds, a future classic.

Best of luck with your search for one, at that price, if you are really serious..

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

easy_rider911:

FWIW, I'm not waiting for the prices to come down to buy one ... I have no plans :)

I'm very happy with what I currently have ;)

Very sensible too.  As you know, we regret ever selling our 06 Boxster S, although events turned out well in the end.

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. - Albert Einstein

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

Rosino:

dreamcar:

All of which can be retro-fitted. Must admit the Leeds car, in my favourite aqua blue that does have all that equipment is by far my choice of the cars on offer - but not at £80k.

 Too late, I got that one ;-)

I guess spec and color play a large part.. but yes cars are not holding up too well.. if the economy picks up maybe it will slow down. But at some price point there will be somebody to pick up a bargain.. really well-off people are still well-off.. they are just getting better value for the money at the moment. 

For the Guildford car... I don't think you can retro-fit sports chrono let's not kid ourselves, how on earth they are going to install active engine mounts come on... they don't even accept to retro-fit parking sensors ! And for the sports exhaust in the last 997.2 we were talking close to 3k at OPC prices to have it fitted.. can't be that different now. Assuming that it is already available for retro-fit which I am not sure about.. To give you an idea when I look for a 991 in the car locator I tick the box of sports exhaust.. would not even have shown that one.  

If you have a car without sports exhaust and without sports chrono.. and in RED.. well it's going to be more difficult to sell. That's a given. Both launch cars with most option ticked that were around (platinum silver at Mayfair) and now the aqua blue (in Leeds)  have sold. Probably not at asking price, but not at 65k either.. 

I hopefully take delivery of mine pretty soon, after they finish adding a few bits and pieces that will set her off nicely.

 

Congratulations Rosino, you've bagged one beautiful 991. Look forward to seeing some good photos of it here in the near future.  Our humble 997 has sport exhaust, and that wasn't even shown on the car's details, it was only spotting the different exhaust tips that got me phoning the dealer. Apparently the spec shown is the "as built" spec, retrofitted kit (like PSE) are not automatically shown.

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. - Albert Einstein

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

I am now seeing the 997.1  Carrera S at under CHF 50'000 in Switzerland. That is - 70% to what is was worth new 6 years ago and so it is now  cheaper then a new Golf TSI .

The 997.1 TT has lost about 60 %  

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

I think oversupply killed residuals of 997 - I'm wondering if this will swing the other way for 991 in the longer term as it's still quite rare to see them around London and Hertfordshire at the moment. (in fact I've seen more 981 boxsters than 991)

C2S - Basalt/Black XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog

I would definitely hope short supply will help residuals when economy picks up... But wouldn't be on it. When I bought my v8 m3 I was hoping low numbers for the car will help residuals. Wasn't really the case. I bought a 1yr old car so avoiding first year huge hit, but 26months and 20k miles equated to a still considerable 15,650 of depreciation. 

Probably though the M3 has a different market which is even more prone to economic threats. On average 911 buyers are just less sensitive to market conditions. 

Will post detailed photos hoot as soon as I get it. Cannot wait. I might be facing some depreciation but a least will get to enjoy it whilst other ppl wait for prices to drop further ;-)

I look forward to your pics - and impressions of the car - I'm a real fan of Aqua as well as Cobalt blue but I've usually played safe with black\silver cars as they seem to be less market sensitive. (1st boxster was the exception in guards red - but colour started to fade after a year or so) I really like the white 991 but not sure how long the "white wave" will last. My father had a 1988 le mans 924 (2.5l 944 engine) in Alpine white from new - always looked slightly cream to my eyes. White seemed to fall out of favor in the early 90s in UK (every Astra GTE, RS Turbo and 205Gti seemed to be white!) to return maybe 15 years so so later (when the police had switched from white panda cars to silver to protect residuals). 

C2S - Basalt/Black XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog

I always bought black, dark grey (atlas grey 997, sublime colour why the hell have they dropped it) and silver (for my Elise albeit has a sparky look to it and is not as old looking as Platinum silver on the new 991)

Aqua is a risk but in person is much less aggressive than in pictures. It just looks good. And more fun. 

Rosino:

Aqua is a risk but in person is much less aggressive than in pictures. It just looks good. And more fun. 

It's a great colour, (but then I would say that)  and one of the few non silver - grey - black default colours that seems to hold its value ok. Our beloved Boxster S was cobalt, I always thought a more classy colour than aqua but not quite as bright.

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. - Albert Einstein

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

John H:

easy_rider911:

I wouldn't pay more than £45k for an early GTS.

Easy - I paid just over £90K for my fully loaded 'early' GTS some 20 months ago.  I've clocked 11,500 miles during this time and fully complied with break-in and general running recommendations.

Do you honestly think I'd part with it for a half of the original price...? 

This car is a keeper and a gem of a 911.  It is also very rare and, to some peoples minds, a future classic.

Best of luck with your search for one, at that price, if you are really serious..

Hi John, just to clarify, I'm not looking to replace my car. I chose every option I ever wanted and made sure it was exactly to my liking ... so I'm very happy with it ... so I have no plans to change ... so I'm not looking at used GTSs ...

Coming back to the topic, I think the key problem is the big gap between what the car is worth according to a valuation and what the dealers charge.

When you sell a car, the dealers will pay the minimum they can and they will quote the least favourable sources for what the car is worth. And then when they sell the car in their used car showroom, they add a hefty mark up.

So just to clarify, when I said I would not pay more than £45k for an early GTS, I was basing this on what the car would be sold back to the dealer for, not the inflated prices quoted by dealers. I would expect them to add an extra £10k on top to cover the cost of an extended warranty and their profit, which would explain why an early GTS would be re-selling at an OPC for around £55k.

--

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

I agree that the GTS is a great deal ... it was essentially a superb option package (inc powerkit) for a good price ...

Fundamentally it is based on a Carrera S (i.e.a Carrera S could have been specified to the same level but at a higher cost).

Used car prices are inevitably all about supply and demand ... apart from the GT models (which retain their value far better due to the much smaller production numbers), we are nowadays lucky to receive over 50% of the car's original purchase price after 3 years.

Thanks to the global economic slowdown, the Eurozone crisis, high numbers of 997s sold in the UK market, used car prices are very disappointing from a seller's perspective and, thanks to the dealer mark ups, not that great from a used car buyer's perpsective either. (Although some dealers are open to negotiate depending on sales targets and how desperate they are to shift inventory ... so sometimes, some good deals can be had).

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

One more thing that makes me very upset .... dealers won't offer a significantly better purchase price to a seller for a car with good options (but they will mark down their offer price for undesirable colours/options) but that doesn't stop them from subsequently trying to charge more for re-selling a car with better options. It's hypocritical and dishonest.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

One more thing that makes me very upset .... dealers won't offer a significantly better purchase price to a seller for a car with good options (but they will mark down their offer price for undesirable colours/options) but that doesn't stop them from subsequently trying to charge more for re-selling a car with better options. It's hypocritical and dishonest.

It's the antique dealer's philosophy - "we buy junk and sell antiques"

--

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. - Albert Einstein

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

If only buying new was divorced from selling on......

C2S - Basalt/Black XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog

Easy_rider911 :

Fundamentally it is based on a Carrera S (i.e.a Carrera S could have been specified to the same level but at a higher cost).

Not so.  Perhaps a Carrera 4S could be specced to get to a  4GTS, but not a 2W as the 2GTS has the distinction of the wider body.  The only other option to get a GTS would be to buy a Sport Classic and remove the Fuchs wheels, "acquascutum" fabric, take off the duck tail and panel beat the roof , but economically I don't think that would be a good idea!

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Yes, Budster, you're right about the wide body but that's not an 'option' ... rather, it is a model-specific dimension ... I was really focussing more on the option package you get as standard on the GTS (which you would otherwise have to pay extra to add on a Carrera S).

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Budster:

 

The only other option to get a GTS would be to buy a Sport Classic and remove the Fuchs wheels, "acquascutum" fabric, take off the duck tail and panel beat the roof , but economically I don't think that would be a good idea!

I already thought the GTS has been a bargain but from that point of view... 

easy_rider911:

Yes, Budster, you're right about the wide body but that's not an 'option' ... rather, it is a model-specific dimension ... I was really focussing more on the option package you get as standard on the GTS (which you would otherwise have to pay extra to add on a Carrera S).

It´s the wider body, centrelock whees and bigger fuel tank that wasn´t available as an option. So, whatever option package one might choose will never duplicate a GTS. I´d say it´s a given that those options are not critical in a purchasing decision, if one would have the choice between a regular C2S and a GTS, but add significantly to the attraction of the car. On top of that, in today´s model lineup from Porsche one might miss the dose of exclusivity of previous generations or reject the pricing structure of the Sport Classic or Speedster variants. So, unlike previous special editions that might´ve provided a slightly better value at purchase or a unique colour combination, those special ingredients won´t diminish over the course of time,

You might´ve guessed right, I haven´t been that convinced about a Carrera since a long time... 

reading about the depreciation and low prices in UK gives me red eyes. Cars are so cheap over there. Clearly because the market is so small, nowhere close you would need right hand drive.

UK Depreciation is startling. If year old 991's cliff jump just where are year oid Maseratis at?

JimFlat6:

UK Depreciation is startling. If year old 991's cliff jump just where are year oid Maseratis at?

Nearly all new cars are taking a real hammering here. The only sector  that is holding value are small economical hatchbacks and cars for the mega rich.

 Only someone with more money than sense would buy a brand new top end car right now. 

--

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. - Albert Einstein

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

Mind you and IMO a 991s is over priced at around 91k after options ( and that's sensible specs ).  It just seems high now.

throt

"I didn't do it"

throt:

Mind you and IMO a 991s is over priced at around 91k after options ( and that's sensible specs ).  It just seems high now.

It's almost as if Porsche are still pricing their cars on the assumption they are somehow exclusive, like Ferrari or even Maserati. Nowadays they are becoming as much of a mass producer as BMW. In that context the whole Porsche range is over priced.

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. - Albert Einstein

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

Lars997:

reading about the depreciation and low prices in UK gives me red eyes. Cars are so cheap over there. Clearly because the market is so small, nowhere close you would need right hand drive.

Prices for new cars in the UK  are cheap . Since the drop of the £ , prices have not been adapted, so they gain with exchange rates.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

dreamcar:

throt:

Mind you and IMO a 991s is over priced at around 91k after options ( and that's sensible specs ).  It just seems high now.

It's almost as if Porsche are still pricing their cars on the assumption they are somehow exclusive, like Ferrari or even Maserati. Nowadays they are becoming as much of a mass producer as BMW. In that context the whole Porsche range is over priced.

I agree with you to an extent. Most 911 models are good value given the level of their performance, character, unique features and timeless appeal. Moreover, someone can enjoy a 911 with its very serious performance without being very wealthy. Try owning and more importantly using regularly something from the  "exclusive supercar brands" and unless you have money to burn,  it will be a financial suicide. 

Also the Boxster S is at a price that won't break the bank, although on the high side, but it offers a unique blend of mid-engine flat six, fantastic road manners and as from 987.2 serious build quality. Some of the cheaper competitors are competent but not so distinguished IMO.

--

"Form follows function"

Another significant "dropper" today - Red Wilmslow launch car which had moved from £78305 to £77016 is now £73506. 

C2S - Basalt/Black XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog

bridggar:

Another significant "dropper" today - Red Wilmslow launch car which had moved from £78305 to £77016 is now £73506. 

If it drops another £20k - I'm in.......

--

Accountants are like fire and water, good servants but bad masters.

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"