CloseRC:
Yep, the 991 Turbo could be the first Porsche 911 Turbo to be offered without any (real) manual option.
--
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
IMHO manual is a complete waste of time ! If you want a manual, go get a Datsun 120Y 
RC:
PDK for the GT3 is now confirmed. Just came off the phone with a buddy, so there is no doubt about it anymore.
The bad news (for those sticking to manual): Porsche doesn't seem to be sure if they should offer manual too.
What would the problem be in offering both systems?
Make the manual transmission optional at extra cost and make some more money from the "purists".
"Form follows function"
Jun 16, 2012 1:11:38 PM
reginos:
RC:
PDK for the GT3 is now confirmed. Just came off the phone with a buddy, so there is no doubt about it anymore.
The bad news (for those sticking to manual): Porsche doesn't seem to be sure if they should offer manual too.
What would the problem be in offering both systems?
Make the manual transmission optional at extra cost and make some more money from the "purists".
If they don't offer it is because its probably too costly to develop a manual option for the GT3 given their estimated calculation of orders for manual GT3's (as automatic trannys become more popular nowadays than before), and that even charging for it as optional equipment, it will not outweight the R&D costs they estimate.
The 991 Carrera's manual they have now is no help, now that they use the same engine, its shouldn't be too hard to just use that one, but it's probably not good enough for the GT3. In the 997, the Carrera had an Aisin gearbox but I believe the GT3 still had a Getrag.
Maybe they haven't taken the final desition yet and still calculating if its cost effective or not... personally I think they should make the effort to offer a manual on the GT3 even if its not that cost-effective, its a lot more than about leaving some faithful manual loving GT3 customers in the dry in this generation, its a matter of image, phylosophy, and intetions. After all these years them talking about how on each previous generation of GT3 only gets a manual because its a driver's car and the physolophy of the car implies a manual, etc. and how much they care about the driving experience, etc... for the new bosses to do a 180º, contradict what Porsche always said about the GT3, and fit an automatic gearbox without posibility of a manual, sends a very worrying message about the idea and intentions they now have for Porsche and its cars 
not good, not good at all...
Jun 16, 2012 3:44:00 PM
Carlos I agree with your last point and it is a good argument, this is too fast a turnaround even if the final destination is clear that manuals will eventually be gone. I recall BMW were forced by customers to put a manual into the E60 M5, but a year after its debut. Maybe PAG will do the same...
2011 Range Rover Sport S/C, 2009 Porsche 911S
Jun 16, 2012 4:06:10 PM
Jun 16, 2012 4:13:44 PM
If Porsche are going to offer an alternative gearbox for the 991 GT3 / RS maybe they can engineer a road-car version of the sequential paddle transmission in the 2012 Porsche GT3 R...
Falken Motorsports Porsche GT3 R Onboard 24h-Rennen 2012
That GT3 R sequential transmission is much more impressive than the 991 PDK gearbox and also works rather well with the awesome 4.0-litre 500bhp Mezger Porsche motorsport engine! 
In any case, a manual gearbox should always be available if Porsche want existing 997 GT3 / RS owners to upgrade to the 991 GT3 / RS models...
Jun 16, 2012 9:40:15 PM
Jun 17, 2012 4:32:34 AM
I read in an interview two or three years ago that the PDK transmission would remain in the Porsche until 2018 after which a sequential transmission would replace it. The interview was with one of the PAG engineering executives (I think it was Durheimer who is now head of Bentley I think).
Sequential manuals are officially dead IMO. Even Graziano and Getrag will stop their production in one year time. NO new model sportscar will be introduced with sequential manual in next 3 years. ONLY two sportscars are using sequential manual currently-Aventador and V8 Vantage(I am not counting R8/Gallardo because FL version of R8 will use DCT from September 2012).
KresoF1:
Sequential manuals are officially dead IMO. Even Graziano and Getrag will stop their production in one year time. NO new model sportscar will be introduced with sequential manual in next 3 years. ONLY two sportscars are using sequential manual currently-Aventador and V8 Vantage(I am not counting R8/Gallardo because FL version of R8 will use DCT from September 2012).
Absolutely agree about the death of sequential gearbox with Kreso. And IMO the sequential manual in the Aventador is the only real flaw of this otherwise magnificent car.
The secret of life is to admire without desiring.
Jun 17, 2012 12:35:14 PM
Jun 17, 2012 2:18:57 PM
An interesting article on the historic evolution of the gearbox / transmission in the Porsche GT3 range...
The very first Porsche gearbox was a transaxle (a common case sharing the gear stack and the differential). All Porsche 356-997 street and race cars share this same design theory. From the first 356 design through the 1980s 911s, Porsche used their own design synchronizers. Even with several evolutions of their own designs, they still proved to be problematic.The Porsche 911 transmission took on a huge improvement in reliability, durability, and ease of operation in 1987 with Porsche design 950, commonly called the G50 gearbox. They are used from 1987 to present day in all 911, 964, 993, 996, and 997-bodied cars. These heavy-duty gearboxes, made by Getrag, use the Borg-Warner style synchromesh. A variant of this is still used in the 996/997 GT3, GT3R, and 996/997TT/GT2 cars.As with the earlier Porsche transmissions, Porsche has manufactured many different gear ratios, as well as ring and pinion sets to allow the gearboxes to be set up for virtually any kind of driving. Most of the street car gearing is selected with fuel economy in mind, so there are many opportunities for performance improvements with changing gear sets or ring and pinions. The first version of the gearbox was a 5-speed, but with introduction of the 993 brought on a 6-speed version of the G50 gearbox. The 993TT and four-wheel drive 993 and 993 4S use a similar gearbox with a driveshaft that extends through the nosecone to drive the front wheels.The G96 gearbox was introduced at the start of production 996/986 cars. The most noticeable difference in these gearboxes is the cable shifter. All 996/986 cars other than 1998-early 1999 996 GT3 cars use a cable shifter.The 996 GT3 gearbox is different (type G96/90, G96/93, G96/96) from the standard 996. The GT3 gearbox has evolved from the 993 GT2 which, in turn, evolved from the 993 TT, and before that, the 1989 930 G50/50. The 996 GT3 box is also used in the 996TT/GT2 and 996 GT3 Cup/GT3 RS/RSR race cars. It has a dedicated oil pump and external oil/water intercooler, steel synchronizer rings on gears 3-5, and interchangeable gear ratios (main shaft assembled from individual ratios that are positioned, not pressed into place), and a 40% / 60% asymmetrical clutch type limited slip differential.At the end of the 996 GT3 RSR production, the sequential gear selection capability came to Porsche racing, the G97 6-speed gearbox was born. Holinger Engineering was consulted for design and production of the internal gear sets. The 997 Cup brought the sequential to mainstream production. The 997 GT3 RSR also uses the same type dog engagement design. Externally, these gearboxes look the same as their predecessor G96 boxes, using many of the same castings, coolers, oil pump, etc. These transmissions have proven themselves to be quite reliable, and as before offering quite a wide range of gear selections. Early 996 Cup/GT3Rs can be converted to sequential capabilities if a customer so desires.After a year or so of testing, the 2008 997 GT3 RSR introduced a new "clean sheet of paper" design to the transaxle. With Porsche's recent supercar the V10 engined Carrera GT, a new manufacturer (Hör) was brought in to design the 6-speed gearbox. This manufacturer also designed and developed Porsche's new gearbox for the RS Spyder. This successful relationship with Porsche Motorsport also brought new eyes to one of the biggest issues with the G50 based gearbox. In the Porsche race world the axle geometry has been an issue for the past two decades. As the cars are lowered for racing, the axles tend to have more and more extreme angles, causing axle failure. This issue has been resolved with the new design. The gearbox is also lighter, and focused on details internally to decrease the friction on contact points...
...maybe Porsche have commissioned Hör to develop a new gearbox for the 991 GT3 RSR following their development of the RS Spyder and GT3 R transmissions? 
Jun 17, 2012 5:05:08 PM
KresoF1:
In normal street Porsche sportscar you will NOT see sequential manual of any kind. Not now, not in 2018.
For racing versions it will solely depend of regulation.
It is still six years until then and any development cycle for cars debuting in 2016 will still not have started. The advantages of double-clutch gearboxes could be covered by other technical solutions then and I guess that is what he is referring to. The uninterrupted acceleration of a double-clutch gearbox can also be achieved by a manual gearbox coupled to an electric motor which, considering the progress Porsche and other brands are making regarding improved gas mileage and electric components within the drivetrain, could well appear in their cars in one or two generations.
Jun 17, 2012 5:52:43 PM
I wonder about the possibility of a future racing transmission that accepts input from the driver more along the lines of general operational mode instead of precise shifting time and gear. Since PDK has become very fast and smooth, and (I think) even capable of shifting in the middle of a curve, why not have an input on the column (like a paddle or thumb button) just to tell the transmission "full go" (ie shift upwards for fastest acceleration based on predefined ideal shift points) or "give me torque now" or "downshift quickly for upcoming curve" etc.
I'm no expert at all (the video above scares the .... out of me) but it seems like PDK is already monitoring accelerator, brake, steering, etc. so just telling the car general instructions could be all that is necessary for optimal performance. Is this already being done, or am I just a simpleton??
Jun 17, 2012 6:23:08 PM
Jun 17, 2012 6:28:20 PM
davew (cincy):
Since PDK has become very fast and smooth, and (I think) even capable of shifting in the middle of a curve, why not have an input on the column (like a paddle or thumb button) just to tell the transmission "full go" (ie shift upwards for fastest acceleration based on predefined ideal shift points) or "give me torque now" or "downshift quickly for upcoming curve" etc.
I'm no expert at all (the video above scares the .... out of me) but it seems like PDK is already monitoring accelerator, brake, steering, etc. so just telling the car general instructions could be all that is necessary for optimal performance. Is this already being done, or am I just a simpleton??
It already takes acceleration input (longitudinal as well as transversal) into account. These general instructions you are referring to is more or less what is stored in standard, sport and sport plus mappings, isn´t it?
Watching the video, there is no way the driver could have executed some of the passes without PDK. He could not take his hands off the wheel and shift while performing the pass.
The video also demonstrates characteristics of a good driver. He is fearless in making moves, trusts the other drivers, knows the track well enough to plan his moves, judiciously uses his brakes and once he decides he commits with a certain amount of abandon. 
Jun 17, 2012 9:29:59 PM
Ferdie:
Porsche-Jeck:
chuckb:
WOW! Great racing footage.
Awesome
Indeed. Do you know who was driving?
Don't know who was behind the wheel in the stint shown in the vid, but Andy Guelden (Chief instructor of the NBR GmbH) was one of the drivers on the Teichmann Porsche. I had a nice chat with Timo K. about the drivers team on that car and his comment was very typical for him: a bit "dirty" if you know what I mean 
but usually that's his way to express big respect for capable racers 
public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black
I can't wait for the next generations of cars to have fully automated braking, steering and accelerations systems - all of course GPS guided 
Undoubtley, it will make us faster and safer - he or she who has the best system (or IT geek) wins 
but of course all in the spirit of safety and gaining the last .000001 second in our daily commute 
TEE:
I can't wait for the next generations of cars to have fully automated braking, steering and accelerations systems - all of course GPS guided
Try a C63 Coupe AMG. Drive it with ESP turned on, then turn on Sport Handling mode and then turn off ESP completely. Trust me, this is more of a hardcore experience than a GT3 without PSM or PSM turned off.
If after this experience you are still thinking that street legal cars should not offer any electronic "assist" systems for drivers, you are really hardcore (and will probably crash your car over the next 18 months on a public street 
).
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
It is wonderful that there are cars - like your amazing C63 Coupe AMG PP- that can't be driven with out electronic assistence, even by car jocks like yourself 
and I do hope that you don't crash either, frankley I don't wish it upon anyone. But you missread my words 
By point was simply the increased reliance on more electronic assistance. What comes after PDK? Likely a fully automated, intelligent, shifting system that will decide the right gear for you based on where the GPS position of the car, the presence of other cars, weather conditions, and whether it deemed you to be driving spirited or simply on a Sunday afternoon drive. Either way the car will be "faster" for it - but equally involving??
In the latest Lotus Exige the fancy system of Bosch allows you to be full throttle in the middle of the turn and the car - for your own safety - ignores it! Great, and worth its money for most, including bad drivers like me. But if one has driving skills like you, it must be underwhelming 
Irrespective of our different perspectives I still value your opinion and share they excitment for any new car
Let's be honest: 90% of the drivers out there can't probably handle their super sports cars even with the driver assist systems enabled. So yes, I think that a lot of new stuff will come sooner or later and I wouldn't even be surprised if law makers start to make some of them mandatory or even limit certain weight/power ratios at some point.
The C63 reminds me of pure driving (well, the weight unfortunately is there) and it is fun but I wouldn't want to drive this car without any assist system on public roads, especially when it is wet outside.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
TEE:
I can't wait for the next generations of cars to have fully automated braking, steering and accelerations systems - all of course GPS guided
-
I think there is a balance that car manufactures have gone beyond - RC - I think the C63 is effectively 2 animals one with the electronic aid and one without. there are very few people who can drive it without unless they are on a runway or closed circuit - fun in both instances, but like you said 95% of the time you need it on. I am wondering if car manufacturers have gone too far and lost that balance. I believe this is exactly what Toyota and Subaru are hoping for in launching their new phone, but mildly powered cars. I think there will be a slew of cars to follow and an audience who will buy them.
TEE:
I can't wait for the next generations of cars to have fully automated braking, steering and accelerations systems - all of course GPS guided
Porsche has already been testing auto throttle and braking systems in the Panamera. But apparently auto steering would "dilute the Porsche feel".
How does auto throttle and braking not "dilute the Porsche feel then"?
Whatever, at the rate technology is moving, I'm sure everybody obsessing over acronyms that basically drive the car itself will be complaining how everybody should buy the auto throttle/brakes because it will help you go faster when you just so happen to find yourself driving on the Nuerburgring in a life or death situation in which you must get below a 7:20 lap time, or you die.
-Unfortunately, it seems cars are turning into mobile living rooms, and sportscars are turning into mobile living rooms with a bunch of cool gadgets that the buyers only get for bragging rights to show off.
That's why forever: 993>991 360/355>458 575M>F12 Berlinetta Murcielago>Aventador Carrera GT>918 Spyder
Long live the not so long ago century of real cars.
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