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    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    The new GT3 will certainly be even more daily able to attract a wider new customer base. That means the GT3 base model will be seen as a Carrera SS, which means it'll likely have the new engine and PDK as well. I am sure it will be one hell of a beast though still. The GT3 RS will be much more sporty and track but I really hope that these models will come with optional Manual box, if not I may have to open a shop to offer such a model in the future broken heart


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    lol, Carrera SS!!! No wonder you're from Germany! :P


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Softening the GT3 is unthinkable - and unnecessary if there's a GTS coming.

     

    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    bluelines:

    Just because one mule has a PDK steering wheel it does not mean the manual is gone. I rather believe they go down the Ferrari route now, continue to offer manual for at least one more generation, then it might be gone. I trust no one will miss it by that time indecision

    +1 - fully agree.   And offering PDK is hardly "softening" the GT3; nobody accused Ferrari of having a soft 430 Scuderia with only the F1 transmission.... 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    I never understood anyway why people are so anal about keeping manual? yes

    PDK has almost reached a point of perfection and I'm pretty sure that Porsche has achieved a pretty good adaptation in the GT3. I don't see any reason for manual anymore (don't kill me guys...), especially since manual has almost vanished completely from the motorsport world.

    Deal with it...manual is a thing of the past. Like Cambell tomato soup or wearing a bra...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    In my earlier post I was suggesting that it was unthinkable that they would soften the GT3 - I wasn't referring to PDK.  Whether it is PDK only or not, it should not be "softer" than it currently is: one shouldn't need to buy an RS as Atzporsche suggests, to get something like the current GT3:  it must be a GT3, just better.


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Budster:

    In my earlier post I was suggesting that it was unthinkable that they would soften the GT3 - I wasn't referring to PDK.  Whether it is PDK only or not, it should not be "softer" than it currently is: one shouldn't need to buy an RS as Atzporsche suggests, to get something like the current GT3:  it must be a GT3, just better.

    Let me put it this way: The new GT3 will kick some ass on the track. Smiley Good enough for you? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Budster:

    In my earlier post I was suggesting that it was unthinkable that they would soften the GT3 - I wasn't referring to PDK.  Whether it is PDK only or not, it should not be "softer" than it currently is: one shouldn't need to buy an RS as Atzporsche suggests, to get something like the current GT3:  it must be a GT3, just better.

    Ah... got you.  What might be more interesting than the transmission is whether the GT3 engineers have come up with a different map for the electric steering... perhaps dialing in a bit more feedback given the new more sedated default setting for the 991.  


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Ah... got you.  What might be more interesting than the transmission is whether the GT3 engineers have come up with a different map for the electric steering... perhaps dialing in a bit more feedback given the new more sedated default setting for the 991.  

    Smiley


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    991 Carrera (PDK) comparison with 997 GT3 (manual)

    991-Carrera-PDK-vs-997-GT3.jpg

    I was fortunate enough to spend the weekend driving a new 991 Carrera PDK back-to-back with a 997 GT3, which are currently available at a similar price. Here are a few comments on the 991 Carrera PDK with a focus on the gearbox...

    Chassis -- the 991 is starting to feel less rear-engined and a bit more mid-engined, very impressive in the corners... almost like a Cayman.

    Steering -- less feel than hydraulic steering in the 997, but still good feedback on dry road surfaces.

    Brakes -- very strong steel brakes, as you would expect from Porsche.

    PDK in Standard mode -- decent for driving around town at low speeds, or cruising on a motorway, but annoying elsewhere. Too much elasticity in the response to driver inputs.

    PDK in Sport mode -- better than standard mode, with less perceived elasticity, but still changes gear far too often.

    PDK in Manual model -- generally does what you ask it to do (like a Playstation) but not as rewarding as a traditional manual gearbox with three pedals.

    PDK buttons vs paddles -- the standard buttons are ridiculously poor; paddles should be standard for PDK, with buttons an option for old Tiptronic customers.

    E-Brake -- terrible, awful, pathetic, horrific, a big step backwards -- Porsche should reinstate a standard hand-brake as a priority! Smiley

    Auto Stop-Start -- not appropriate and annoying on a Porsche 911, so switched it off for every drive.

    Auto Coasting -- not appropriate and annoying on a Porsche 911, so switched it off for every drive.

    Interior -- notable improvement in quality, but some switches would be better of as dials (e.g. Sport button, Auto Stop-Start, etc) so you can keep it in the preferred position. Good iPod connection via USB input in glovebox.

    Engine -- good improvement for the 991 Carrera compared to the 997 Carrera, but not a touch on the (more expensive) Mezger motorsport engine in the 997 GT3.

    Sound -- ok in standard mode, better in sport mode. Engine noise piped into the cabin sounds a bit synthetic and obviously not a touch on the sound from the Mezger motorsport engine in the 997 GT3.

    Traction -- good traction from standstill, but PDK does introduce a short delay before responding (not present with a manual gearbox). PDK may be quicker with launch control activated, but in normal driving the manual can be quicker to react from the lights.

    Rear seats -- good rear seats in 991 Carrera / not available in 997 GT3.

    Overall, the 991 Carrera PDK provides an impressive breadth of talents and certainly represents a significant step-change from the 997 Carrera. 

    The latest version of the PDK gearbox is an impressive development of the technology and makes the 991 easy enough for your grandma to drive. However, the PDK does change the character of the car and in "standard" mode you will often be driving in a gear that is 3-4 higher than you would with a manual gearbox (e.g. driving at 40mph in 7th gear). In "sport" mode PDK you are often driving in a gear 2-3 higher than you would with a manual gearbox. PDK hence changes gear much more often than is usual with a manual gearbox.

    A drive in a 997 GT3 further emphasises the unnecessary number of gear changes in a PDK -- for example, 3rd gear in the GT3 is good for over 100mph without hitting the red-line. Furthermore, if you enjoy perfecting "heel-and-toe" gear changes, PDK will not be as fulfilling or enjoyable to drive.

    However, if you are looking for a sports car that is easy to drive, PDK will be a popular option. The fuel economy that PDK can achieve is also impressive -- although I've never met a GT3 owner that complained about fuel economy! Smiley

    One of the attractions of a GT3 with a manual gearbox is that it is a real thrill to drive at any speed -- even driving around town at 20-40mph is a pleasure with that awesome Mezger motorsport engine singing through the revs and the chance to blip the throttle on downchanges.

    This video by Chris Harris provides a good illustration of the attractions of a GT3 with a manual gearbox, compared to a couple of competitors with automated alternatives...

    ...yes, the GT3 RS 4.0 manual is faster and more fun to drive! Smiley

    In conclusion, I would suggest any potential 991 customer to test drive in a 997 GT3 and see which you prefer to drive! 

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

     

    I suppose commuting in traffic in a GT3 RS 4.0 manual could be fun, but is could also get old real fast.  
     
    When I get tired of the PDK heading straight to the economy gear- it runs to 7th so fast its laughable- I just leave it in the Sport setting and shift up and down with the lever or the buttons. With Sport Chrono the shifts are instant, with a little blip coming down through the gears. In Sport Plus it does a fair imitation of a Cup car (as in Brap Bam, Brap Bam Brap Bam)  and never misses a shift.
     
    PS: the buttons are so counter-intuitive when first encountered that they are just maddening. My first road test was a mess. When I found a car with the suspension and interior I wanted I bought it despite the buttons. I was ready to refit a Sport wheel with paddles. But after a few weeks, they became transparent in use. On the street, I use the right one to go up, and the left one to come down, or else push and pull the stick. 
     
    I have not yet been to the track, but friends who have (in recent models, including Tiptronic cars) tell me they leave the transmission to do its thing and focus on dealing with higher entry and exist speeds that come with focus. One, with a 2008 Boxter S RS-60, a stock engine and a very well set up suspension, runs mid-pack among GT3s, and looses time only on long straights. He is an outstanding driver and has found that the transmission does better than he can.

    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Doesn't Chris Harris actually own a GT3 RS 4.0? So he may be a little bit biased.

    I also wouldn't compare the M3 GTS, C63 AMG Coupe BS with the GT3 RS 4.0, this is kind of weird.

    The GT3 RS 4.0 is in fact a street legal race car, the M3 GTS and the C63 AMG Coupe BS are more wannabee siblings of their road models M3 and C63 AMG Coupe. Good sports cars but not in the same league with the GT3 RS 4.0 in my opinion, sorry to say that.

    People like the manual in the GT3 RS 4.0 because...there is no alternative. If you are impressed with this car, how can you criticize the gearbox, if you get my point?

    Mark my words: With PDK in the next generation GT3/GT3 RS, I think manual will be a thing of the past very soon.

    What I love about PDK is the ability to choose various driving modes, incl. the auto one when I am tired or driving in heavy traffic.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    991 Carrera (PDK) comparison with 997 GT3 (manual)

    991-Carrera-PDK-vs-997-GT3.jpg

    I was fortunate enough to spend the weekend driving a new 991 Carrera PDK back-to-back with a 997 GT3, which are currently available at a similar price. Here are a few comments on the 991 Carrera PDK with a focus on the gearbox...

    Chassis -- the 991 is starting to feel less rear-engined and a bit more mid-engined, very impressive in the corners... almost like a Cayman.

    Steering -- less feel than hydraulic steering in the 997, but still good feedback on dry road surfaces.

    Brakes -- very strong steel brakes, as you would expect from Porsche.

    PDK in Standard mode -- decent for driving around town at low speeds, or cruising on a motorway, but annoying elsewhere. Too much elasticity in the response to driver inputs.

    PDK in Sport mode -- better than standard mode, with less perceived elasticity, but still changes gear far too often.

    PDK in Manual model -- generally does what you ask it to do (like a Playstation) but not as rewarding as a traditional manual gearbox with three pedals.

    PDK buttons vs paddles -- the standard buttons are ridiculously poor; paddles should be standard for PDK, with buttons an option for old Tiptronic customers.

    E-Brake -- terrible, awful, pathetic, horrific, a big step backwards -- Porsche should reinstate a standard hand-brake as a priority! Smiley

    Auto Stop-Start -- not appropriate and annoying on a Porsche 911, so switched it off for every drive.

    Auto Coasting -- not appropriate and annoying on a Porsche 911, so switched it off for every drive.

    Interior -- notable improvement in quality, but some switches would be better of as dials (e.g. Sport button, Auto Stop-Start, etc) so you can keep it in the preferred position. Good iPod connection via USB input in glovebox.

    Engine -- good improvement for the 991 Carrera compared to the 997 Carrera, but not a touch on the (more expensive) Mezger motorsport engine in the 997 GT3.

    Sound -- ok in standard mode, better in sport mode. Engine noise piped into the cabin sounds a bit synthetic and obviously not a touch on the sound from the Mezger motorsport engine in the 997 GT3.

    Traction -- good traction from standstill, but PDK does introduce a short delay before responding (not present with a manual gearbox). PDK may be quicker with launch control activated, but in normal driving the manual can be quicker to react from the lights.

    Rear seats -- good rear seats in 991 Carrera / not available in 997 GT3.

    Overall, the 991 Carrera PDK provides an impressive breadth of talents and certainly represents a significant step-change from the 997 Carrera. 

    The latest version of the PDK gearbox is an impressive development of the technology and makes the 991 easy enough for your grandma to drive. However, the PDK does change the character of the car and in "standard" mode you will often be driving in a gear that is 3-4 higher than you would with a manual gearbox (e.g. driving at 40mph in 7th gear). In "sport" mode PDK you are often driving in a gear 2-3 higher than you would with a manual gearbox. PDK hence changes gear much more often than is usual with a manual gearbox.

    A drive in a 997 GT3 further emphasises the unnecessary number of gear changes in a PDK -- for example, 3rd gear in the GT3 is good for over 100mph without hitting the red-line. Furthermore, if you enjoy perfecting "heel-and-toe" gear changes, PDK will not be as fulfilling or enjoyable to drive.

    However, if you are looking for a sports car that is easy to drive, PDK will be a popular option. The fuel economy that PDK can achieve is also impressive -- although I've never met a GT3 owner that complained about fuel economy! Smiley

    One of the attractions of a GT3 with a manual gearbox is that it is a real thrill to drive at any speed -- even driving around town at 20-40mph is a pleasure with that awesome Mezger motorsport engine singing through the revs and the chance to blip the throttle on downchanges.

    This video by Chris Harris provides a good illustration of the attractions of a GT3 with a manual gearbox, compared to a couple of competitors with automated alternatives...

     

    ...yes, the GT3 RS 4.0 manual is faster and more fun to drive! Smiley

    In conclusion, I would suggest any potential 991 customer to test drive in a 997 GT3 and see which you prefer to drive! 

    Smiley SmileySmiley

    1000% agree ! Smiley


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    We can only hope that Porsche still continue to may the GT3/RS as a non-mainstream car for those who don't want yet another "softer" 911.

    Sadly, in the interests of profit the 911 has become more and more a mainstream car , becoming easier to drive, less intimidating anymore accessible to more clients. Sure, it's faster, more efficient, more luxurious and more comfortable but is that what we want from a GT3.

    The success of the GT cars may mean that the accountants are tempted to soften the GT3 to appeal to a wider clientele and thereby creating a greater profit for the company - let's not forget that Mezger engine is a very expensive piece of kit and a tweaked DFI engine is going to be an awful lot cheaper to produce.


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    I think that it is normal market tendency that sportscars become more griendly to driver, the sameyou will see if you compare 90-s sportscars with 2000s. Demand makes offer)


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Ian C:

    We can only hope that Porsche still continue to may the GT3/RS as a non-mainstream car for those who don't want yet another "softer" 911.

    Sadly, in the interests of profit the 911 has become more and more a mainstream car , becoming easier to drive, less intimidating anymore accessible to more clients. Sure, it's faster, more efficient, more luxurious and more comfortable but is that what we want from a GT3.

    The success of the GT cars may mean that the accountants are tempted to soften the GT3 to appeal to a wider clientele and thereby creating a greater profit for the company - let's not forget that Mezger engine is a very expensive piece of kit and a tweaked DFI engine is going to be an awful lot cheaper to produce.

    In a world where men wear pink shirts, there is no room for manly cars anymore. Smiley

    On a more serious note: I understand what you mean but Porsche can't just build 10 cars for the hardcore GT3 lover.

    The GT3 has become a mainstream car? I doubt that. In the past, I have seen tons of GT3 on the street but not over the past couple of years. Many people understood that the GT3 is not really the perfect daily driver but more of a street legal race car. What is wrong with more efficient, more luxurious and more comfortable if it beats out the crap of the previous generation? Smiley The GT3 still needs a good driver to be fast, you can't put a crappy driver in a GT3 and by magic, he is fast. Smiley I actually think that the new cars are more challenging because they allow the driver to experience the limit at a much higher level in a safer environment. When the rear comes though...well...it comes... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4



    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    I will always want a manual.  Clearly my next car will be a 997.2 GT3. 

    e-brake - big mistake!  What a joke, hope the Gt3 has the hand brake.  Don't give a hoot about the electric steering, that will be a small issue comparded to going to the DFI engine (cheap) and the next sound symposer (gt3 style, lol).


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    I actually think that the new cars are more challenging because they allow the driver to experience the limit at a much higher level in a safer environment. When the rear comes though...well...it comes... Smiley

    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Leawood911:

    I will always want a manual.  Clearly my next car will be a 997.2 GT3. 

    e-brake - big mistake!  What a joke, hope the Gt3 has the hand brake.  Don't give a hoot about the electric steering, that will be a small issue comparded to going to the DFI engine (cheap) and the next sound symposer (gt3 style, lol).

    Why is DFI engine of 991 cheap? Direct injection is more complicated...


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    I don't understand all this resistance for the new technology and new evolution of the 911?! yes Do people expect Porsche to present a new 911 generation which is exactly like the previous generation.


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    bluelines:

    I don't understand all this resistance for the new technology and new evolution of the 911?! yes Do people expect Porsche to present a new 911 generation which is exactly like the previous generation.

    +1


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Thoma: 

    "2013 Porsche 911 GT3 Testing -- Spy Video"

    "...a little video clip of the next-generation 911 GT3 testing out and about. We can see even more clearly now the typical GT3-style front bumper, staple centered twin exhaust pipes, and a new style rear wing which appears to be the same as the aero-kit rear spoiler option found in the standard 991 order-book ... we don't think this will be official rear wing set-up for the production version..."

    2013 Porsche 911 GT3 Testing -- Spy Video Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    2013 Porsche 991 GT3 spy video...

    gt3-1.jpg

    gt3-2.jpg

    gt3-4.jpg

    gt3-5.jpg

    gt3-6.jpg

    2013 Porsche 991 GT3 -- Spy Video Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Looks good.

    Definitely sounds like a PDK shift at the tail end of the video.


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    davew (cincy):

    Looks good.  Definitely sounds like a PDK shift at the tail end of the video.

    Yes, there is really no question any more, all the longer videos clearly demonstrate fast PDK shifts somewhere.  It is nice to hear the classic GT3 resonance in the exhaust note, despite this new engine.... I always wondered how much of that noise was somehow inherent in the resonances of the Mezger block itself vs. how much was just exhaust tuning; now we will perhaps see that all the Porsche sixes can be tuned to sound like this.  Smiley


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Leawood911:

    ...and the next sound symposer (gt3 style, lol).

     

    While BMW employs a digitally sanitized/perfected sound file, Porsche's symposer is a diaphragm in a tuned sound tube that brings the engine noise into the cabin - it's not synthetic, so I think we can accept this one...



    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    PDK for the GT3 is now confirmed. Just came off the phone with a buddy, so there is no doubt about it anymore.

    The bad news (for those sticking to manual): Porsche doesn't seem to be sure if they should offer manual too. angry


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    RC:

    PDK for the GT3 is now confirmed. Just came off the phone with a buddy, so there is no doubt about it anymore.

    The bad news (for those sticking to manual): Porsche doesn't seem to be sure if they should offer manual too. angry

    I got the same info about ten days ago. BTW, same thing for 991 Turbo.Smiley

    Also, regarding track times for 991 GT3 and 991 Turbo-way faster(as PDK!) then previous models.Smiley


    Re: PDK in the next 991 GT3?

    Yep, the 991 Turbo could be the first Porsche 911 Turbo to be offered without any (real) manual option.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


     
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