Crown

Gnil:

bluelines:

John H:

Guys - PureBlue reported on his installation of the SharkWerks muffler bypass (i.e. straight-through X-pipes) in his original GTS collection thread.  The potential pitfall of this system voiding the warranty was also discussed and considered in that thread.

...but connecting a device which interferes with the electronics does not void the warranty? [tongue-in-cheek] 

It does, but you do not get found out, as you can take it off in 2 minutes, without any trace 

Assuming the onboard computer does not register the opening and closing of PSE flaps for diagnostics  Busted! 

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

John H:

As far as Gert "speaking to his own book" is concerned, that is just plain lunacy.

I do however object to those who are suggesting that Gert may be purposefully misleading in his remarks..

Why should he..?  The X-pipes are over £1,200 more expensive than the Remote!  If he was 'on the make' he would surely have been pressing to go down that route..

Damn, I knew I should have stayed out of this.  Oh well, I suppose it's too late now...

i did not suggest that Gert was attempting to "purposefully mislead" you - these were not the words I used.  What I am saying is that any attempt to suggest that replacing a silencer (which has two sharp U-bends) with two straight stainless steel pipes won't make a meaningful difference is just plain wrong.  One doesn't have to be an automotive engineer to know this.

i have to wonder how many people criticising this "aftermarket" sound have actually heard the SharkWerks exhaust in real life (not in a YouTube video) or driven a 911 equipped with the system?

Oh, and by the way, the SharkWerks system didn't cost me anywhere near £1,200 more than the Carnewal remote - in fact, the total cost didn't even approximate this.  We're obviously not talking about the same product.

in the end, everyone needs to do what they prefer.  I wouldn't dream of trying to prescribe what others should do.

PureBlue:

Damn, I knew I should have stayed out of this.  Oh well, I suppose it's too late now...

The x-pipe advertised on the Carnewal webpage looks identical to the Cargraphic x-pipe. Costs ca. USD 1050 and is available in two designs, open or close where the two U-bends meet (similar to the internals of the stock silencer but without the silencer box). The SharkWerks design is different since it is a straight pipe connecting one side to the other.

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

Seems I may be going senile!  I forgot that we discussed this issue extensively, back in August last year, on the thread "Install PSE on my 997.2" by J. Seven.

I shall be interested to hear what he thinks about the X-pipes when he has them fitted, alongside the Carnewal Remote, as he will be the only one here who will have experience of both devices.. separately and combined!

In the meantime, I can only remark upon my personal experience of 'Stock vs Carnewal'.  The latter satisfies my personal requirements, both in terms of loudness & quality of sound.  Quality was mentioned by Reginos, in the other thread, although he hasn't contributed to this one as yet..

My other consideration has been the assurance from RC that " the box" makes a difference.  I have a very great regard for RC's opinion on most things in general.. and on all things relating to Porsche.  If he says it's Friday then it's f*cking Friday as far as I'm concerned!! 

I'm gathering information here to send to Gert and will report back on his reaction when he receives it...   

--

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

John H:

My other consideration has been the assurance from RC that " the box" makes a difference.  I have a very great regard for RC's opinion on most things in general.. and on all things relating to Porsche.  If he says it's Friday then it's f*cking Friday as far as I'm concerned!! 

Your faith in one man's opinion is touching, but perhaps a little misplaced given his strange (and unsubstantiated) assertion earlier in this thread that disconnecting the electrical connector in the engine bay actually closes, rather than opens, the exhaust flaps - which, as bluelines pointed out, contradicts what everyone else has said on this issue (and his own personal experience).  It is one thing to respect someone else's opinions, another thing altogether to follow them blindly and unquestioningly.  Forgive me for being cynical, but I'd rather check the calendar before accepting that it's Friday...

To be clear though, I'm not sure how this degenerated into a SharkWerks vs. Carnewal discussion.  I think both are valid choices and the choice of one option over the other should be driven by personal preference (not by what someone else says).  If you look back, my first post on this thread was: "John, glad you found a solution that works for you".  I have absolutely no reason to doubt your positive feedback on the Carnewal option.  I stand by that and will defend your right to decide what's best for you (in the hope that others will reciprocate). 

One of the drawbacks, probably the biggest, on international forums is misinterpreting figures of speech in different languages and cultures.  The language itself can easily be mis-translated and give out the wrong message.

Another problem is posting stuff in the middle of the night.. following a very stressful day! 

I probably went a bit overboard regarding RC, but I do respect his opinion, more than most, purely on experience over the last 7 or so years!

The choice I made was influenced by RC, but not entirely.  It was he who first drew attention to the device when he picked up his GTS.  However, I didn't rush out to buy it - I researched it and asked many questions of Gert and other users on other forums.  Six months later I bought it, having dismissed the after-market  option on warranty grounds.

I'm still very pleased I did and continue to recommend it for those who view the situation similarly.  I'm also very pleased for those who have chosen after-market solutions if that suits them best.

It's not a competition between devices... purely a discussion on choices and their rationales...

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

bluelines:

RC:

 

When you disconnect the connector, the flaps actually stay closed all the time. Porsche has changed this, it is exactly the other way around as in the 997.1. So I can't see how the exhaust can get louder when you do that.

Where did you get that information from? 

It contradicts what (so far) everyone else has said on any forum I have searched through. Many 997.2 PSE owners have done the modification this way and all report a louder sound.

I did check that there was exhaust pressure behind all four tips after the disconnection, that must surely mean the flaps are open?

 

Mass-hynosis ? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Your faith in one man's opinion is touching, but perhaps a little misplaced given his strange (and unsubstantiated) assertion earlier in this thread that disconnecting the electrical connector in the engine bay actually closes, rather than opens, the exhaust flaps - which, as bluelines pointed out, contradicts what everyone else has said on this issue (and his own personal experience).  It is one thing to respect someone else's opinions, another thing altogether to follow them blindly and unquestioningly.  Forgive me for being cynical, but I'd rather check the calendar before accepting that it's Friday...

Thank you for the flowers. 

I assume that Porsche worldwide use the same flap control on all 997.2 and on my car and several others we tried, disconnecting the connector just didn't work. Disconnecting the tube on the 997.1 worked though.

You got a little bit touchy because I criticized the Sharkwerks pipe and the resulting warranty and sound issues, I got it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

John H:

Another problem is posting stuff in the middle of the night.. following a very stressful day! 

Yes, that one is a killer  

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

A mass-hypnosis would not explain exhaust gases from all four exhaust pipes when the connector is off  Nor does it explain that an authorized Porsche mechanic explained that disconnecting the electrical connector on the 997.2 is the trick for a loud exhaust. Yes, he could be wrong, but I doubt that given I tried myself and it worked.

On the 997.1 both disconnecting the vacuum tube and the electrical connector from the pneumatic solenoid worked. On the 997.2 I only tried the electrical connector so far.

On the 997.1 the electrical signal to the pneumatic solenoid was pulse-based. One pulse, on. Next pulse, off. Hence the flaps could only be in two positions, fully open or fully closed. I assume the system is identical on the 997.2 and the flaps are not variable between fully open and fully closed (only mentioning that since some people were speculating that the DME is continuously adjusting the flaps).

I'll measure the sound with a dB-meter now to end the discussion 

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

RC:

bluelines:

RC:

 

When you disconnect the connector, the flaps actually stay closed all the time. Porsche has changed this, it is exactly the other way around as in the 997.1. So I can't see how the exhaust can get louder when you do that.

Where did you get that information from? 

It contradicts what (so far) everyone else has said on any forum I have searched through. Many 997.2 PSE owners have done the modification this way and all report a louder sound.

I did check that there was exhaust pressure behind all four tips after the disconnection, that must surely mean the flaps are open?

 

Mass-hynosis ? 

I actually just  went to try it now, after reading the last messages. ( wearing a mask so no hidden snake could hypnotize me  )

When I disconnect the plug... my flaps ( actually the right one , as the other one is dead on open ) stay OPEN  . So , to me, and after verifying it, I confirm they are open.

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil - were the gas pressures on your right side pipes as even as on your left (stuck) side?

This is important as on stock PSE the outer pipes are always weaker, at least they are when the car is stationary.

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

So, I went back now to check it out again :

Outer pipes are always very slightly weaker then the inner. On my left and right side.

I kept my hand in front of the exhaust while I pulled the plug to be sure I could really feel if there was a difference. i did it about 5 times. I could not feel any difference from pulling the plug, or with Gert's divice on. The pressure did not change, and it was in both cases very slightly less on the outer pipes.

I also noticed that the outer pipes have black 'stuff' inside , but the inner pipes do not . ( and bare in mind that my left exhaust has been open for a few month )

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Something is definitely wrong with your exhaust or Swiss cars have different exhaust systems (wouldn't be the first time in Porsche history...some 911 even had a different gear ratio for Switzerland).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

bluelines:

On the 997.1 the electrical signal to the pneumatic solenoid was pulse-based. One pulse, on. Next pulse, off. Hence the flaps could only be in two positions, fully open or fully closed. I assume the system is identical on the 997.2 and the flaps are not variable between fully open and fully closed (only mentioning that since some people were speculating that the DME is continuously adjusting the flaps).

I'll measure the sound with a dB-meter now to end the discussion 

Gert's contention is that his device has the effect of 'training the DME' not to continuously adjust the flaps - hence always fully open - hence louder sound.  This presumes that, with stock, the flaps are constantly varied by the DME...

It's easy to check when the car is stationary but a different proposition under acceleration...

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

What would be the purpose of the DME continuously adjusting the flaps and more importantly how would the DME get feedback for this "training"? A mass airflow sensor behind the silencers? A microphone in the engine compartment? 

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

RC:

Something is definitely wrong with your exhaust or Swiss cars have different exhaust systems (wouldn't be the first time in Porsche history...some 911 even had a different gear ratio for Switzerland).

Yup, Gnil is wrong, I am wrong, the mechanic who confirmed this is the mod on the 997.2 PSE is wrong and the 20+ folks who did the mod over at Rennlist, PistonHeads and 6speedonline from all over the world (not Swiss) are also wrong 

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

bluelines:

 

Yup, Gnil is wrong, I am wrong, the mechanic who confirmed this is the mod on the 997.2 PSE is wrong and the 20+ folks who did the mod over at Rennlist, PistonHeads and 6speedonline from all over the world (not Swiss) are also wrong 

No...his exhaust is just not functioning properly, like he said before: 

I did not have the proper time to undo the Gert mod to check if my PSE is realy stuck on open, but it suspect it is.

That's why I am not impressed by the mod...as I had it naturally since many month ! I did indeed think my PSE just got better with time ( now 65'000 km ) .

Without the Carnewal device, the "mod" does not work on my car, I have tried it before, the flaps stay close as soon as I disconnect the connector and start driving, they don't stay open, sound is muted. So maybe I just have a special car, right ?!  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

 

Without the Carnewal device, the "mod" does not work on my car, I have tried it before, the flaps stay close as soon as I disconnect the connector and start driving, they don't stay open, sound is muted. So maybe I just have a special car, right ?!  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC , it is strange that the flaps close on your car . Today I went to my OPC and talked to the head mechanic about my exhaust problem .  I then asked him in what position the default mode is for the flaps . He said OPEN . I then asked to be sure : What happens when we pull the plug ?  He said it stays OPEN as it gets in default mode .

So, you should ask your mechanic about this matter and see his answer. Maybe your flaps close when you accelerate 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

That can't be right Gnil.  The one thing everyone agrees about is that the default position of the flaps is CLOSED.  That's why, without the Remote Device, the car starts up with PSE off - until the switch is pressed.  There can't be any difference, can there, between the 997.2 S, which you and Bluelines have, and the GTS which RC & I have..

BTW - what did the mechanic have to say about your sticking left PSE flap and the 'black stuff'?

--

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

No, I don't agree that the default position is closed  The default position is open, because without vacuum in the pipes the springs in the flaps holds them open. This is the very reason why the modification works. Pull off the solenoid connector or the vacuum pipe to fill the them with air and the springs will open the flaps. Voila!

Correct, when you start the car PSE is off, but the flaps are momentarily open until the vacuum pump has caused them to close. You hear this very clearly when starting the car. It was the same on the 997.1 too.

I did some runs yesterday up a road in the forest to compare the sound level between solenoid connector off and PSE on/off.

• Connector off - The exhaust is loud, always. Especially around 4000-5000 RPM in 2nd gear where it howls like a flat-6 should  Not as loud as the 997.1 PSE though.
• Connector on, PSE on - The exhaust is loud, but becomes muted around 4000-5000 RPM in 2nd gear.
• Connector on, PSE off - Quiet and boring.

As a side note, we now had two independent OPC mechanics confirm that this is how the exhaust works (on top of all the tests we did). Why is it so hard to accept this?  (not meant in a harsh way) 

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

One last point. There are a number of 997.2 owners who upgraded their exhaust from stock to PSE, but skipped installing the cable harness, vacuum pipes and button under the PCM. Their exhausts are always loud.

Carnewal even offers this setup for owners who don't need the switch. See P97-2 Factory Sport Exhaust on their website: If you want the sound of the PSE but you don't need the switchable option, then you only need the left and right muffler with the special PSE exhaust tips.

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

bluelines:

No, I don't agree that the default position is closed  The default position is open, because without vacuum in the pipes the springs in the flaps holds them open. This is the very reason why the modification works. Pull off the solenoid connector or the vacuum pipe to fill the them with air and the springs will open the flaps. Voila!

Correct, when you start the car PSE is off, but the flaps are momentarily open until the vacuum pump has caused them to close. You hear this very clearly when starting the car. It was the same on the 997.1 too.

I did some runs yesterday up a road in the forest to compare the sound level between solenoid connector off and PSE on/off.

• Connector off - The exhaust is loud, always. Especially around 4000-5000 RPM in 2nd gear where it howls like a flat-6 should  Not as loud as the 997.1 PSE though.
• Connector on, PSE on - The exhaust is loud, but becomes muted around 4000-5000 RPM in 2nd gear.
• Connector on, PSE off - Quiet and boring.

Okay, I hold my hands up...  I didn't know about the flaps being 'momentarily open' when the car is started - one is never too old to learn...!

So, it seems from the second of your test runs that, with normal PSE, there is indeed still a cut-out on the 997.2 at around 4000-5000 RPM in 2nd gear which mutes the sound.... Interesting, as that was Gert's opinion stated in one of his emails.  His device obviously eliminates this and gives a similar effect to your first test run result... that's good!

Many thanks for the clarification...

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

bluelines:

Correct, when you start the car PSE is off, but the flaps are momentarily open until the vacuum pump has caused them to close. You hear this very clearly when starting the car. It was the same on the 997.1 too.

Good explanation. I was wondering about this nice sound when I start the car.

• Connector on, PSE on - The exhaust is loud, but becomes muted around 4000-5000 RPM in 2nd gear.

This is the normal operation of PSE, as designed by the factory, OK? I think at this rev range the exhaust really starts to bark and definitely it's not muted like in your case

--

"Form follows function"

Yes, that is the expected behavior as designed by the factory. I put it in for comparison.

With muted I don't mean quiet  It is, in comparison with the connector off, a muted sound at this RPM / speed. On the 997.1 I found this behavior very irritating. Just when the exhaust was about to go baaaah... the flaps closed. On the 997.2 it is not as distinct since the exhaust is overall quieter than the 997.1.

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

bluelines:

With muted I don't mean quiet  It is, in comparison with the connector off, a muted sound at this RPM / speed. On the 997.1 I found this behavior very irritating. Just when the exhaust was about to go baaaah... the flaps closed. On the 997.2 it is not as distinct since the exhaust is overall quieter than the 997.1.

But why would the flaps be designed to close at this rev range? Is it because in 2nd gear the road speed corresponds to a level that noise drive-by regulations prohibit a louder sound?

I suppose that doing 4000-5000rpm in 4th gear and hence a high road speed, would keep the flaps open. What have you found out?

"Form follows function"

reginos:

But why would the flaps be designed to close at this rev range? Is it because in 2nd gear the road speed corresponds to a level that noise drive-by regulations prohibit a louder sound?

It is the road speed (50 - 80 km/h) not the RPM, but at this RPM I found the sound the loudest. 

997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers

bluelines:

reginos:

But why would the flaps be designed to close at this rev range? Is it because in 2nd gear the road speed corresponds to a level that noise drive-by regulations prohibit a louder sound?

It is the road speed (50 - 80 km/h) not the RPM, but at this RPM I found the sound the loudest. 

 

reginos:

I suppose that doing 4000-5000rpm in 4th gear and hence a high road speed, would keep the flaps open. What have you found out?

Yes, then the flaps should remain open.

 

Thank you very much for your clarifications

"Form follows function"

reginos:

bluelines:

But why would the flaps be designed to close at this rev range? Is it because in 2nd gear the road speed corresponds to a level that noise drive-by regulations prohibit a louder sound?

I suppose that doing 4000-5000rpm in 4th gear and hence a high road speed, would keep the flaps open. What have you found out?

Yes, in some countries ( Switzerland for example ) the sound regulation   measure at 60 km/h

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm