Crown

Upsa:

Hey All,

First of all my very best wishes to everybody for a super 2012, my all your automotive & other dreams come true!!

Now to my question: leaving aside brand preferences, how would you rate a BMW M5 vs a Panamera Turbo in terms of performance, price, etc? I like the Pana but there's a V2 coming soon and the BMW does have the moniker of stealth looks + monstrous performance.

Your views most appreciated 

If money is not the concern I would clearly pick the Panamera turbo S. The M5 suffers from its RWD concept - which is a serious disadvantage for an overpowered front-engined car. Also, I would rank the product quality (visible as well as invisible) of the Panamera higher than that of the M5.

RC:

My verdict: If you want to have M5 performance in the Panamera, you need to get the Turbo S. Otherwise, the M5 is slightly faster from 0-200 kph and of course at higher speeds.

The M5 seems to suffer from a rather long gearing of the highest two gears - seems to be not as quick as the old M5, for example. Thus, the relative performance of Panamera turbo and new M5 might require a direct comparison test 

Budster:

RC:

I try to get a low initial payment and low monthly rates but a huge residual value. 

Don't you still bear the residual risk, so lowering the initial payments is only reducing your cash flow burden - and increasing your carrying (interest) cost..?

Can you claim VAT on a passenger vehicle in Germany..?  If so, is it only if it's a lease?  (Otherwise the VAT issue would be irrelevant: you'd pay the VAT over to the dealer and claim it back in your next return - either all upfront if buying it cash, or with each payment on a monthly lease)

Keeping a low initial payment with low monthly payments actually increases the residual value of the car substantially. Since I do not intend to buy the car and since the lease is based on a mileage calculation and not a residual value calculation, I'm coming out of this pretty smoothly.  The issue is always to get the lease company lower the initial payment and the monthly rates and at the same time raising the residiual value. Of course they don't like to have a too high residual value because in the end, they bear the risk.

I can only claim VAT if I take the car on the company. However: Since leasing a car isn't actually owning a car, even if I lease the car privately, in the end, the VAT is still deductible and this is actually very important for the lease company, for example if they plan to sell the car outside Germany after the lease ends. If I decide during the private (!) lease to switch the lease to my business, I can do it without any problems and deduct the VAT in the process. I wouldn't be able to do this if I buy the car privately and then decide to put it on the company. It would be too late because once I buy the car privately, the VAT is "gone". Sorry, I can't explain it too well in English, maybe somebody with better language and financial English skills can.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Whilst it's a cash flow friendly method of financing a car, and your monthly lease payments are often lower than typically available through conventional financing, your payments are still based on the difference between your car's initial and future value.

So whilst, you are only paying for the use of your car based on its expected depreciation over the lease term (and an inherent carry cost whilst you have it) and not its entire cost, this is actually the same as if you were buying it cash (as if it was yours you'd recoup the future value when you sell it).

The lease isn't based on mileage - that's just a cap, which allows them to set the residual high (to manage the depreciation).  If you bought the car and did the same mileage, you'd have the same depreciation ...except that I can't believe that Porsche wouldn't assume higher depreciation - if they don't they are actually giving you a "discount" on the purchase.  If that's what's they're doing, then we should all be taking this deal, every time.

So unless a monthly payment plan is the attractive aspect, you'd need to understand the components of the deal in terms of interest rate and residual to really unpack the economics of it.  The mileage cap might simply put a limit to the fun that you can then have, but doesn't impact the economics.

And if VAT is claimable, it's claimable regardless of whether you lease or buy.

--

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

RC:

reginos:

Can you please comment on the X5M brakes compared to your previous Cayenne Turbo?

Below par brakes (for the class of vehicle they compete in) has been a BMW M Division weakness for many years now. The new M5 is not unaffected according to the Autocar test.

The X5M brakes are good but not what I would call Porsche "class". On hot days, driving with full load (family, luggage), the brake starts to fade, especially after a couple of high speed runs on the Autobahn. Still...pretty impressive for a SUV and for a BMW. My wife's M3 Cab is much worse in that domain (BMW apparently forgot to adapt the M3 Cab brake to the additional 200 kg of weight ).

This is how I thought the situation would be. Thank you!

"Form follows function"

Budster:

Whilst it's a cash flow friendly method of financing a car, and your monthly lease payments are often lower than typically available through conventional financing, your payments are still based on the difference between your car's initial and future value.

So whilst, you are only paying for the use of your car based on its expected depreciation over the lease term (and an inherent carry cost whilst you have it) and not its entire cost, this is actually the same as if you were buying it cash (as if it was yours you'd recoup the future value when you sell it).

The lease isn't based on mileage - that's just a cap, which allows them to set the residual high (to manage the depreciation).  If you bought the car and did the same mileage, you'd have the same depreciation ...except that I can't believe that Porsche wouldn't assume higher depreciation - if they don't they are actually giving you a "discount" on the purchase.  If that's what's they're doing, then we should all be taking this deal, every time.

So unless a monthly payment plan is the attractive aspect, you'd need to understand the components of the deal in terms of interest rate and residual to really unpack the economics of it.  The mileage cap might simply put a limit to the fun that you can then have, but doesn't impact the economics.

And if VAT is claimable, it's claimable regardless of whether you lease or buy.

 

--

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

I am afraid this isn't true, at least not in Germany. We have the possibility of two lease contract variants, one based on mileage and one based on residual value. While the residual value is actually unknown when you choose the lease contract based on mileage, the dealer usually tells you and there is also the possibility to set up a confidential contract to buy the car at the end of the lease. German tax law actually doesn't allow this, so you need to use a loophole. It sounds more complicated than it is. So for me, I don't intend to buy the car at the end of the lease, a low initial payment and low monthly rates are just perfect. The residual value at the end of the lease remains the problem of the lease company, I only have to pay up if I drive more than the mileage agreed on in the lease contract. With the money I don't need to put on the table to buy the car, I can actually make an investement and double it in a period of maximum 2-3 years. Usually, it works even better, especially during a crisis like now.

As to buying or leasing: It MAKES a difference. If I buy the car privately, I "loose" the 19% VAT. Even if I plan to put the car on the company after a month, the VAT is "gone", I can't deduct it. If I lease it, things are different because the owner of the car is the lease company. A company. Meaning: If I decide to put the leased car on the company, I can still do that and the VAT is still there, so I can deduct it.

Trust me, I'm not doing this for the first time and it always paid off. From 100k or more EUR I don't have to "lock up" by buying the car, I usually make 200k EUR in maximum 2-3 years (now even faster), so do the math. It is always a win/win situation for me. Unless of course life on earth seizes to exist.

So why do many people in Germany buy cars instead of leasing them ?

Two reasons: A. They don't know better and leasing cars always had a bad reputation in the press, especially if you lease them privately and B. They have "black" money they need to get rid of (since I don't have that kind of money, it doesn't concern me). Most craftsmen or restaurant owners in Germany buy their cars cash, ever wondered why ?! Unfortunately the german tax office isn't stupid at all and they follow these "leads" quite often, especially if these cars are bought privately and not for the company. A customer of mine works in the tax investigation unit and the stories he tells me are always fun (and quite sad too).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Chrstian, in what part of Germany do you live?

As far as I know the trends and people behaviour varies much from region to region...

RC - Your monthly payment is still calculated on a residual value (even if you don't know what it is), as well as the interest rate on the capital amount that the lease company is financing on your behalf.  There is simply no other way a bank of finance house can calculate whether they are making a return on their capital.  You can't put "mileage" into a financial calculator.  The mileage cap is to stop you trashing their assumption (and no doubt you can choose your mileage cap which then changes their assumption and thus the monthly payment).

You can actually quite easily calculate the residual on a financial calculator if you assume an underlying market related interest rate, or alternatively if you assume a market related residual, you can backsolve for the underlying interest rate.  

But on the basis that you are confident that you can achieve a compound annual growth rate of at least 25-40% on your other investments I would however understand why you would want to free up your cash.

This would make an interesting thread on its own, as it's a complex subject.  I'm sure there are other accountants and bankers on Rennteam that would share their expertise - but I have no doubt that they would agree with me on our discussion here as the concepts are fundamental and universal: there is a carry cost (or opportunity carry cost) in any financial decision, and it all comes down to assessing the full life (discounted) cash flows.

On the tax: if your company buys the car, you'd be able to claim all the VAT upfront on day one - so you don't lose the VAT by paying cash.  Your company would then deduct a wear & tear allowance for tax, instead of the monthly lease payments.  Upon selling the car, recoupment rules equalise out the tax benefits of whichever method you use, so there are no real tax advantages of one method over the other.  You pay a cost for leasing, but in your case it's worth it for the opportunity it provides you with making even better returns on the cash it frees up.

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Budster:

RC - Your monthly payment is still calculated on a residual value (even if you don't know what it is), as well as the interest rate on the capital amount that the lease company is financing on your behalf.  There is simply no other way a bank of finance house can calculate whether they are making a return on their capital.  You can't put "mileage" into a financial calculator.  The mileage cap is to stop you trashing their assumption (and no doubt you can choose your mileage cap which then changes their assumption and thus the monthly payment).

You can actually quite easily calculate the residual on a financial calculator if you assume an underlying market related interest rate, or alternatively if you assume a market related residual, you can backsolve for the underlying interest rate.  

But on the basis that you are confident that you can achieve a compound annual growth rate of at least 25-40% on your other investments I would however understand why you would want to free up your cash.

This would make an interesting thread on its own, as it's a complex subject.  I'm sure there are other accountants and bankers on Rennteam that would share their expertise - but I have no doubt that they would agree with me on our discussion here as the concepts are fundamental and universal: there is a carry cost (or opportunity carry cost) in any financial decision, and it all comes down to assessing the full life (discounted) cash flows.

On the tax: if your company buys the car, you'd be able to claim all the VAT upfront on day one - so you don't lose the VAT by paying cash.  Your company would then deduct a wear & tear allowance for tax, instead of the monthly lease payments.  Upon selling the car, recoupment rules equalise out the tax benefits of whichever method you use, so there are no real tax advantages of one method over the other.  You pay a cost for leasing, but in your case it's worth it for the opportunity it provides you with making even better returns on the cash it frees up.

 

OK, here we go again:

1. I know that initial payment and monthly lease rates are calculated based on (theoretical) residual value and capital market interest rate but from my experience, lease companies tend to calculate a much higher residual value, especially if these lease companies are factory owned / run and / or they want to "move" a certain model. Take my older Cayenne Turbo S for example, residual value on a lease would have been 82000 EUR but in reality, I got 54000 EUR for my used Turbo S after three years and 50000 km. Believe it or not but I make a better deal by leasing the car, not to mention the money I still have left to invest. If I spend it, I can't invest it. I did this over and over again, it always worked just fine with a huge plus for me.

Example: Currently, the Panamera Turbo has been voted to be the car with the best residual value on the market. I bet with you that in two or three years, the Panamera Turbo will actually be one of the cars with the worst residual value on the market because of the slowing down economy in Germany, even a possible recession and the rising fuel prices. In 2008, the Cayenne was almost unsalable, guess why ?! Especially with high end cars like the Cayenne or Panamera, the risk is huge and it changes from month to month. I'm not willing to take this risk anymore.

2. If I buy the car for my company, I actually could have a disadvantage later on when I want to sell it. Unless I would buy it for private use but unfortunately even here, the tax office has some rules. The advantage of a lease is that I can decide when I want to take the car on the company and I can even take it for a year and then use it privately again. I can't do that if I buy it, I would have to buy it privately to get it out from the company and I can't buy it under the "official" value, which would be a huge financial disadvantage for me.

For me, buying is taking all the risk and blocking capital at the same time, capital I could invest in stocks and make a huge profit from. I don't have millions not to care about 100k here and there, for me it counts to have for example 100k "free" to invest. This is how I financed a lot of stuff over the past 10 years, you won't believe how good (or how lucky) I am at this.

If I would have millions, I would probably buy the car and don't care about anything but I don't. So I have to do everything possible not to tie up capital I need for investments on the stock market. The monthly payments are ridiculously low and I could afford them, even if my business would slow down substantially. So there is no risk here. The initial payment is no problem either, no surprises here. This is the way I roll and it works always pretty well for me.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

artur777:

Chrstian, in what part of Germany do you live?

As far as I know the trends and people behaviour varies much from region to region...

I live in catholic Bavaria and smaller villages are pretty conservative, including the people living there. The Panamera will be accepted (much better than the Cayenne) in my neighborhood but it could be less accepted at my business (larger city with a huge worker class environment). Maybe I just tell people this is my wife's car, doctors have much less problems in these regards.

I actually started not to care anymore because I'm fed up with actually caring about what other people think. There was a very nice discussion on a german Porsche forum about this and I got "attacked" by...Porsche drivers for actually wanting a Panamera. Mostly Boxster drivers and drivers of older 911 models but still...shocking. The mod there had to delete the thread because it got out of control...this is Germany and the mentality here. Many may not even realize it but I speak each and every day with at least 100 (!) people in my business and I know what they think and how they are "ticking". The advantage and disadvantage of my job. I am a person of trust, they tell me everything, sometimes maybe way too much.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

In the P dealer the other week and some dude had to give his 997 C4S back due to the lease ending. Thing is though he had to return the car PLUS £5k to get out of it,,, ouch.

Must have been a bum deal at the start..

throt

"I didn't do it"

throt:

In the P dealer the other week and some dude had to give his 997 C4S back due to the lease ending. Thing is though he had to return the car PLUS £5k to get out of it,,, ouch.

Must have been a bum deal at the start..

I don't know what kind of lease deals / contracts are available in other countries but in Germany, there are usually two type of contracts, so called "mileage" or "residual value" contracts. The "residual value" contract requires that the car has a certain value at the end of the lease. If the lease company cannot achieve this value by selling the car, the lease taker needs to pay the difference between residual value and real value to the lease company.

The "mileage" contract actually means that you cannot drive more than let's say 10000 km per year. If you stay within this limitation, you usually don't have to pay anything when returning the car, no matter what the residual value (real or on paper) of the car is. Only exception: If the car has damages beyond the normal usage of a car during the lease period. After 3-4 years, even smaller scratches or small dings are considered normal usage. You get even money back for the mileage you didn't drive. If you drive more than the actual limit (contract), you have to pay a certain amount of money per additional km driven. At no point, the residual value (on paper or real) is being taken in consideration at the end of the lease with such a "mileage" contract. Meaning: The lease company carries the risk 100%.

Like I said, I don't know about other countries but in Germany, lease deals are usually pretty sweet, especially for expensive cars. I actually wonder why people buy cars.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Yes, Christian you explained this theme very good und you’re completely right, due to my own long lasting experience.
Maybe not in all countries it’s known that when you buy a car in Germany, you can only use the VAT when a company (your own or the leasingpartner) buy the car and not a private person. The VAT with 19% isn’t small, this accounts for a purchase price of only 190.000,-€  with an amount of 36.100,-€. A lot of money and worth to do the right decisions

At all considerations of the leasing costs, one should also know that leasing has a „price“, comparable with the interest rate at a normal financing. It’s the so called „leasing interest“. This is calculated from

purchase price
. /. downpayment
. /. residual value
/ leasing rate
* number of months.

So you can well compare leasing terms of different providers for the SAME residual value. Of course, the determination of the residual value has a decisive influence on the leasing rate.
Especially the Porsche dealer must guarantee the agreed residual value to the leasing company (Porsche Financial Service). So he bears the risk, not the PFS. In this way it may be hidden discounts in the cotract or even vice versa a purchase discount given to the customer can the dealer with a for him favourable remaining value "take away" again.

It’s just, as so often in life, depending on what a customer is familiar with.

I’ve so far applied "voluntarily" low residual values in my leasing contracts, then also a (private) option to purchase the car based on this value, because I can deduct the leasingrate with its full amount.... so one can do the math....

However, I admire you Christian, for your success with the stock trading. Actually, you could completely give up your profession and move to the sunny California or even better to Florida. I myself investing in my own professionally business and have also a approx. return on equity of 50% per annum, but I’ve to work 24 / 7 for this.
Something went wrong for me on this matter..Maybe y’ll open a new thread „The best stock deals recommneded by RC“

I laso admire with the Christian's possibility to double the money in 2-3 years)

give us some advice where to invest)

like Conny stated you may change your life and go to Wall Street and earn big money if you can be that successful in stock trading. My average figure is 25-30% a year

artur777:

I laso admire with the Christian's possibility to double the money in 2-3 years)

.give us some advice where to invest)

like Conny stated you may change your life and go to Wall Street and earn big money if you can be that successful in stock trading. My average figure is 25-30% a year

Simple rule...I do not trust Europe and I have a lot of faith in the USD and a US recovery. With this rule, I have even won a bet with my banking guy. It could be luck but so far, since 2008, things went pretty well. Strongly falling and rising stock markets are a trader's dream. I usually sell in a good day, I wait for weak days and voila... Sounds simple and surprisingly, it is. I also profit from the exchange rate because for years, all investments are in USD only.

Knowing european mentality and knowing the political and economical situation in Europe very well, it was just a matter of time until the Eurozone got in serious trouble.

If the US doesn't get involved in another long term military conflict and if Republicans win the next presidency, my "luck" could last even longer.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Budster:

RC - Your monthly payment is still calculated on a residual value (even if you don't know what it is), as well as the interest rate on the capital amount that the lease company is financing on your behalf.  There is simply no other way a bank of finance house can calculate whether they are making a return on their capital.  You can't put "mileage" into a financial calculator.  The mileage cap is to stop you trashing their assumption (and no doubt you can choose your mileage cap which then changes their assumption and thus the monthly payment).

You can actually quite easily calculate the residual on a financial calculator if you assume an underlying market related interest rate, or alternatively if you assume a market related residual, you can backsolve for the underlying interest rate.  

But on the basis that you are confident that you can achieve a compound annual growth rate of at least 25-40% on your other investments I would however understand why you would want to free up your cash.

This would make an interesting thread on its own, as it's a complex subject.  I'm sure there are other accountants and bankers on Rennteam that would share their expertise - but I have no doubt that they would agree with me on our discussion here as the concepts are fundamental and universal: there is a carry cost (or opportunity carry cost) in any financial decision, and it all comes down to assessing the full life (discounted) cash flows.

On the tax: if your company buys the car, you'd be able to claim all the VAT upfront on day one - so you don't lose the VAT by paying cash.  Your company would then deduct a wear & tear allowance for tax, instead of the monthly lease payments.  Upon selling the car, recoupment rules equalise out the tax benefits of whichever method you use, so there are no real tax advantages of one method over the other.  You pay a cost for leasing, but in your case it's worth it for the opportunity it provides you with making even better returns on the cash it frees up.

 

In Germany all leasing rates are calculated on residual value. The end milage is just a factor to estimate the end value of the car. The leasing company (selling company is better) take the risk if the car has less value after the period and you have used their car normal and didn´t drive more miles then allowed.

The German finical systems has no possibility to put km or miles in the activa! You can go through the whole SAP software and you will not find any place for km/miles. So you have a contract with km/miles which are calculated on residual values. All km/miles contracts have to tell the residual value to the contract partner, this is also law.

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

While this is right from a fiscal point of view, there are two types of lease contracts in Germany: Fahrzeugleasing mit Kilometerbegrenzung (car lease with mileage limitation) and Fahrzeugleasing mit Restwertfixierung (car lease with a fixed residual value). Both contracts include of course a calculated residual value but there is a huge difference regarding the risk. While in the mileage contract, the residual value risk stays with the lease company (or the dealer), the contract with a fixed residual value leaves the risk with the lease taker.

Meaning: If I make a mileage contract, I don't have to worry about the residual value, just about the mileage. Of course the lease company tries to calculate the residual value in their favor for that particular contract but luckily, the residual value (calculation) seems to be pretty high right now, which of course is in my favor since I don't plan to buy the car at the end of the lease. 

Or to make it short: I profit from a calculated higher residual value because my initial payment and the monthly lease rates are lower.

It is difficult for me to explain it in English but personally, I have no advantage whatsoever to buy a car, on the contrary.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC, I think we are talking the same :)

Years ago some had taken a low residual value for company cars and then they have bought the cars private (after the leasing end). Today this is difficult to explain to our FINANZAMT.

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

ALDO:

RC, I think we are talking the same :)

Years ago some had taken a low residual value for company cars and then they have bought the cars private (after the leasing end). Today this is difficult to explain to our FINANZAMT.

Well...this is another loophole and yes, the tax office doesn't like it at all. 

Most important part is: I can afford a very expensive car without bearing the risk of a low resale value. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

ALDO:

RC, I think we are talking the same :)

Years ago some had taken a low residual value for company cars and then they have bought the cars private (after the leasing end). Today this is difficult to explain to our FINANZAMT.

Well...this is another loophole and yes, the tax office doesn't like it at all. 

Most important part is: I can afford a very expensive car without bearing the risk of a low resale value. 

At the end - you have always to pay some amount of interest! 

For my employee I buy cars - from Audi you get good discount and then holding the car for 4-5 years it is much better then leasing. Normally you pay about 6% interest in leasing and you get 2% when saving obey. So by buying I get 4% extra.

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

Today i did a direct comparison between a new BMW M5 and my new PTS. Weather conditions were ideal (22+ C) and we compared a variety of aspects from high speed autobahn to driving down twisty country roads. My friend and I swapped cars so we could appreciate both in full.

To summarize my friend although a BMW fan will not take the new M5 but is rather considering a PT without the S. My take is that even though they are both in a limousine class they are very different animals. The M5 being something more brutal (akin to my previous 997tt) and the PTS being totally refined.

The M5 suspension is too hard for me where as the PTS is comfortable and this still results in the PTS handling being significantly better. Acceleration wise the PTS pulled away from the M5 surprisingly easily at all speeds upto 250km (max for the BM) and even more so on the twisty roads. The main problem was traction for the M5, traction control kicked in sometimes on the autobahn and many times from standstill or rolling starts.

Finally the launch control acceleration of the PTS is absolutely devastating, totally wipes out the M5 LC as expected.

My PTS has michelin sports NO and the BM had michelin super sports

My comparison table would look like :-

                                  BMW                                                                               PTS

comfort                     just too hard                                                                  very comfortable in all modes

interior                     standard, nothing special                                           superb

steering                   too heavy for me but very direct                                  maybe a little light but you get used to it  

power/accel            excellent but where does the power go?                 devastating in sports plus (1.0 bar)

handling                  excellent                                                                          better but still comfortable

noise                        excellent, you can hear the engine                            quiet, some noise in sports plus

value                         excellent                                                                          you pay the Porsche and S premiums

All in all I am very happy with my purchase and having come from a 997tts am happily surprised at the overall performance of the PTS too.

Enjoy, wish all members great driving times ...

Kabir Khaleque

Panamera Turbo S (black/biege PCCB)

Thanks for the comparison, very interesting. 

How about some nice photos? We die to see your car. 

We are planning some comparison testing ourselves too, sometimes in July (if I finally get my car on July 2nd).

I have a stupid favor to ask: Whenever you have the time, could you check your boost pressure at 240 kph?

It is important that you FULLY accelerate for at least 10 seconds before reaching that speed, so a 100 to 240 kph run would do the trick for example. 

I read about your maximum boost pressure: So is it 1.0 bar?

Thank you and enjoy your car. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I will get around to do some photos soon. Max boost shows at 1 bar i.e with overboost i tried several accelerations from various speeds. I noticed as with my 997tt the 1bar drops after around 5500 rpm and only lasts for max 10 secs. Today i managed 315km on the digi speedout and which point i ran out of safe autobahn but it was still pulling.

Happy driving . . .

Kabir Khaleque

Panamera Turbo S (black/biege PCCB)

dxpetrov:

To me, the M5 is very good value for money, but no BMW can touch Porsche in terms of brand value, recognition and engineering excellence. Everything depends on the size of your wallet. 

On the other hand, as you noted - new Pana is coming within a year (but maybe later where we are), so it could be a difficult choice if you are not completely into Porsches. Then go with the M5 and save some money (and time)...

Good luck.

"engineering excellence", ever heard of RMS and IMS?

stubenhocker:

"engineering excellence", ever heard of RMS and IMS?

On the Panamera? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Without re-opening the whole RMS and IMS issue again, all I would say is that, for the models of 911, Boxster and Cayman that were affected, IMO Porsche no doubt did a cost/benefit analysis of the cost of repairing/replacing faulty engines with the cost of junking/recycling existing parts while redesigning and manufacturing parts that would not yield this problem during the finite period leading up to the introduction of a new range of engines that could be designed not to yield this issue.

It sucks for the affected customers and is not exactly 'engineering excellence' but Porsche is a business and needs to run itself accordingly.

--

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Maybe I should mention a faulty wheel sensor which crippled my wife's M3 Cab only a couple of weeks after the took delivery. Or should I mention the DKG gearbox, which actually turned off the engine when I almost came to a standstill, making it very dangerous, especially when I tried to enter or exit a street? The X5M however has been trouble free but so were all my past Porsche cars for at least a decade. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4