Crown

seranad:

Hey guys,
I am not really active here in terms of posting but whenever the times comes for a new Porsche, this is the place to go to. I very much appreciate the tons of usefull information here and thank you so much all the contributions the active members make.

I wish you'd post more - very sound comments.  I so get your PDK experience, but I'm going to have to battle through.  I hate having to be light-footed to avoid the screaming red-line, but getting the right amount of right-foot pressure at pull-off between limo-driver slow and hot-hatch juvenile is still just beyond me - although I'm getting happier every day, and I think I'll be convinced before very long.  

Again, I'd mention that it's easier in Sport - Normal mode really feels lethargic until it overdoes it - reminds me of the huge turbo lag in my old Audi RS2 Avant.  Nothing at all for the first 0.5 seconds, then it got to 60km/hr (as opposed to 100km/hr) faster than Jacques Villeneuve's Formula One car of the same era (check it out - it's true!)

R

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Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

seranad:

Yesterday; I had the chance to drive the 991 S, PDK and I would like to share my impressions.

Thank you very much for your alternative view or "second opinion",  if I may say.

I suspect that there are many new things in the 991 package that we 997 drivers will need to get acclimatized to. Steering, different ride, different handling because of larger size, longer wheelbase, wider front track, less understeer etc. Someone even wrote that Porsche tried to make the 911 handle like a Cayman! 

Additionally, for people new to the PDK there should be a learning period.  A new type of throttle, brake, gearbox co-ordination is needed to get the best and smoothest results.

However, things do not stand still but move on with the times and general market tastes. I also suspect that after 10.000kms with a 991 going back to the 997 will feel like a step backwards.

"Form follows function"

seranad:

Actually sometimes not so far away from a Ferrari 458 driving experience, which although the 458 has an even better sound, has an even better turn in and of course is quicker. Overall the 991 is leaning into that direction a bit

 Very interesting write-up, thanks for posting 

Your above summary is particularly interesting indeed: I agree that making cars faster is one thing (a goal the 991 has achieved, as it seems). But retaining this very special, non-artificial "feeling" the GT models in particular are able to produce is a different thing. It is funny that you mention the 458: I 100% agree that the 458 (as all other current production Ferraris) demonstrates that a car can be very quick - and still feel strangely synthetic. I hope Porsche can avoid moving along a similar path...

BTW, I still did not drive the 991. So I am very interested in reading all your nice reports 

@serenad, thanks for an honest and useful review.  I guess this highlights the fact that there are a number of changes which 997 owners would have to get used to - and I share your issues with PDK, but I realise that we (i.e. manual enthusiasts) are a dying breed.

OK, I think I kind of see the problem here and it isn't much different than the experience many 993 lovers had when they test-drove a 996 and made complaints about how non-911 like it drives (actually the 996 was just much easier to drive than the 993, this was the only "secret"). Some people seem to prefer the "raw" feel of a car, this is why many classic cars have so much success and why people prefer to drive them over modern versions of the very same car and model. I can't blame them but I have a different take on this.

Yes, the driving experience is very important but is it more important than...actually being faster ? I'm more a technical type of person, I love improvements but of course I also like sound and feel of certain cars. I can see why some 911 lovers wouldn't appreciate the 991, it is just too refined, too perfect for a 911 (in their opinion) but I appreciate (or actually really enjoy) the (r)evolution of the 911 a lot. I started with the 993 and it is amazing where the 991 stands now, from a traditional point of view but also from a performance point of view.

I'm 46 years old now and maybe I would have judged slightly different 20 years ago, I don't know. Right now, I'm embracing the best 911 Carrera Porsche ever made and it is a pity that I can't actually get one. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

Yes, the driving experience is very important but is it more important than...actually being faster ?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC - I think you have asked the perfect question.  For me, it's about the driving experience.  I own a Porsche to have fun, end of story.  If I lived in Germany as you do, and had access to unlimited Autobahnen, then it might be more important that the new car is 5 kph faster.

In America, 275kph top speed and 0-100kph in 4.3s is already more than fast enough on objective terms.  But the pleasure that comes with operating the car on the limit (even if that limit is lower) is what I enjoy on mountain roads and racetracks.

If I go on a mountain drive and arrive home 5 minutes sooner on the same route, this is not the goal for me (I do not derive pleasure from this fact).  At the track, there is always going to be a faster car (unless you bring a Formula car on a trailer) - but I want to be the person at the track having the most fun and biggest smile on my face (guiding a 40 year old 911 sideways with tires smoking and with incredible throttle and steering response does that for me - often quicker than brand new GT Porsches, but that is not the primary objective here either).

I want sensory overload

That being said, a 40 year old 911 is not as complete a car as a 991 - it does not play as many roles as well (or as safely).  But, I would love it if the new 911 maintained as much fun as possible while bringing all the modern advances along for the ride.  It seems that Porsche is doing a relatively good job of this, but I'm hoping the new GT3 brings lots more fun to go with the efficiency and speed.
 

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

RC:

Yes, the driving experience is very important but is it more important than...actually being faster ?

Also an interesting question: is it really necessary to choose between speed and experience?

Not necessarily, I would say, just look at the GT2 RS etc. A very "old-fashioned" car - but quicker than almost everything else 

Grant:

RC:

Yes, the driving experience is very important but is it more important than...actually being faster ?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC - I think you have asked the perfect question.  For me, it's about the driving experience.  I own a Porsche to have fun, end of story.  If I lived in Germany as you do, and had access to unlimited Autobahnen, then it might be more important that the new car is 5 kph faster.

In America, 275kph top speed and 0-100kph in 4.3s is already more than fast enough on objective terms.  But the pleasure that comes with operating the car on the limit (even if that limit is lower) is what I enjoy on mountain roads and racetracks.

If I go on a mountain drive and arrive home 5 minutes sooner on the same route, this is not the goal for me (I do not derive pleasure from this fact).  At the track, there is always going to be a faster car (unless you bring a Formula car on a trailer) - but I want to be the person at the track having the most fun and biggest smile on my face (guiding a 40 year old 911 sideways with tires smoking and with incredible throttle and steering response does that for me - often quicker than brand new GT Porsches, but that is not the primary objective here either).

I want sensory overload

That being said, a 40 year old 911 is not as complete a car as a 991 - it does not play as many roles as well (or as safely).  But, I would love it if the new 911 maintained as much fun as possible while bringing all the modern advances along for the ride.  It seems that Porsche is doing a relatively good job of this, but I'm hoping the new GT3 brings lots more fun to go with the efficiency and speed.
 

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

+1.  For me, it is indeed about the driving experience - and not about being 0.3 seconds faster over 0-100 or whatever.  If all that mattered was sheer speed and technological efficiency, I guess we'd all be buying Nissan GT-Rs.  Oh, and by the way, I'm older than you, so let's not reduce it to an age-related issue.  

PureBlue:

Grant:

That being said, a 40 year old 911 is not as complete a car as a 991 - it does not play as many roles as well (or as safely).  But, I would love it if the new 911 maintained as much fun as possible while bringing all the modern advances along for the ride.  It seems that Porsche is doing a relatively good job of this, but I'm hoping the new GT3 brings lots more fun to go with the efficiency and speed.
 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

+1.  For me, it is indeed about the driving experience - and not about being 0.3 seconds faster over 0-100 or whatever.  If all that mattered was sheer speed and technological efficiency, I guess we'd all be buying Nissan GT-Rs.  Oh, and by the way, I'm older than you, so let's not reduce it to an age-related issue.  

 I didn't mean that I am 40 years old - my car is almost 40 years old (sadly, I'm even older than my car )

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Grant, sorry for the misunderstanding - that comment was meant for RC (not you).  He mentioned that he was 46, but may have had a different view 20 years ago.  

No problem.  BTW, RC and I are the same age

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Grant:

 I didn't mean that I am 40 years old - my car is almost 40 years old (sadly, I'm even older than my car )

That's OK, Grant. It's nice to date younger cars. 

"I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."

I agree Grant. The experience is far more important than going as fast as you can.

Because, after all you are ALWAYS going to be driving the car, but only 1% of the time are you going to be going as fast as possible.

Geez, I just realized I date both younger cars and younger women.  I am 21 years older than my 1963 B Coupe, and 23 years older than my wife.  To paraphrase David Byrne's "Watching the Days Go By" , I have found myself behind the wheel of a fine automobile, looking at my beautiful wife, and saying "My God, what have I done!"  Sure is fun, this flicker called life...

Carrara:

I agree Grant. The experience is far more important than going as fast as you can.

Because, after all you are ALWAYS going to be driving the car, but only 1% of the time are you going to be going as fast as possible.

And even during the 1% of the time (more for some people), the important part is how the car behaves at ITS limit (and how involving it is there), not compared to the fastest car ever made (in my mind, anyway).

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Wonderbar:

Geez, I just realized I date both younger cars and younger women.  I am 21 years older than my 1963 B Coupe, and 23 years older than my wife.  To paraphrase David Byrne's "Watching the Days Go By" , I have found myself behind the wheel of a fine automobile, looking at my beautiful wife, and saying "My God, what have I done!"  Sure is fun, this flicker called life...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

MKSGR:

RC:

Yes, the driving experience is very important but is it more important than...actually being faster ?

Also an interesting question: is it really necessary to choose between speed and experience?

Not necessarily, I would say, just look at the GT2 RS etc. A very "old-fashioned" car - but quicker than almost everything else 

Old school car with modern technologies, brutal performance, skilled driver required!

RC's question is indeed the one one needs to ask himself when it comes to priorities.

I am for the driving experience all in!

Appart from the speed, I hate to admit it, but I have probably more pleasure in my 05 Carrera S with 20mm suspension than my 11 Turbo S.

Old style, old school but with a modern touch, yes, you've guessed it, I have just ordered a Singer Porsche!

This machine promises to tickes A LOT of boxes for the 911 enthousiast!

Futch:

 

Old style, old school but with a modern touch, yes, you've guessed it, I have just ordered a Singer Porsche!

This machine promises to tickes A LOT of boxes for the 911 enthousiast!

OMG!   That is going to be awesome!  Details please - I'd love to know every single detail of this - how "customised" will it be..? 

How about a brand new thread for this unfolding story Futch??!!

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Oh Futch, please,please, please, write a report about the Singer after you got it! I contemplate the Singer option too... I am just afraid about service and repairs cost because I don't live in US.

There is no try. Just do.

Congrats  on the singer - a real "dream-machine" ! 

PLEASE write a Build and Order Thread for the Singer! Congrats, it's just great.

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

Futch:

Old style, old school but with a modern touch, yes, you've guessed it, I have just ordered a Singer Porsche!

This machine promises to tickes A LOT of boxes for the 911 enthousiast!

 

Very exciting!  Congrats!

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Futch, a Stinger  . That car is on my ' maybe one day ' list of car !!!! I just love it and am really looking froward to your driving impressions and the whole experiment with this car . Please do keep us posted.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

The new issue of evo magazine has a comparison of the 991 Carrera S with the 997 GT3 by Chris Harris...

911 Carrera S vs 997 GT3

"The all-new 991-generation Porsche 911 is here, and in 394bhp Carrera S trim it’s as fast as the outgoing 997 GT3. But can it possibly be as much fun? Serial 911 buyer Chris Harris is the man to tell us..."

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S -- First Drive

EVO RATING: 911 Carrera S   ***** (5 STARS)

EVO RATING: 997.1 GT3           ***** (5 STARS)

...thanks and all due credit to Chris Harris!

 

The new issue of evo magazine includes speculation around future 991 models......

...thanks to evo magazine!

Futch:

MKSGR:

RC:

Yes, the driving experience is very important but is it more important than...actually being faster ?

Also an interesting question: is it really necessary to choose between speed and experience?

Not necessarily, I would say, just look at the GT2 RS etc. A very "old-fashioned" car - but quicker than almost everything else 

Old school car with modern technologies, brutal performance, skilled driver required!

RC's question is indeed the one one needs to ask himself when it comes to priorities.

I am for the driving experience all in!

Appart from the speed, I hate to admit it, but I have probably more pleasure in my 05 Carrera S with 20mm suspension than my 11 Turbo S.

Old style, old school but with a modern touch, yes, you've guessed it, I have just ordered a Singer Porsche!

This machine promises to tickes A LOT of boxes for the 911 enthousiast!

 

Wow..great....respekt for the Singer..

Gratulations - and certainly a more rewarding machine than 991S..

all the best,

Boxster Coupe GTS:

The new issue of evo magazine includes speculation around future 991 models......

 

...thanks to evo magazine!

 

Thanks BC GTS!! 

Thanks guys,

Sorry wrong thread indeed, I ordered it about a month ago.

It's 100% bespoke, pure personalisation. I will open a dedicated thread shortly with all details. I'm going to meet Rob Dickinson mid january in LA!

The evo rendering of the 991 GT3 looks fantastic - can't wait to see (and experience) this car in the flesh!