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    Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Hi there! I'm looking to replace my current dd( 997.2 carrera 4 coupe) for either a carrera 4 gts (probably new) or the new 991 carrera s. How much more practical is the 991 and does anyone know about the driving experience compared to the gts or even my current car? But that is not top priority as my other car is my driving machine! Does anyone know more about the body kit for the new one with the ducktail spoiler? Available in the uk or is it even real in the first place??

    Many thanks

    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Great question!  The problem is that the answer is very subjective.  The good news is that there are a couple of threads (old and current) that are chock-a-block with opinions on exactly that.  The best way of getting an answer is taking a look at the threads and delving into some great debate!

    Also - welcome to you, but there are some far more qualified people to welcome you to Rennteam so I'll leave that to them - I'm pretty new around here myself..!

    You also need to ask yourself whether you need a C4GTS or a CGTS...  Another question packed with advise within Rennteam, and the search button is waiting for you below!

    Good luck!!

     

     


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    No one, other than official press reviewers, has driven the 991 as yet - we'll have to wait for that.

    However I've had a GTS for 10 months and can thoroughly recommend it as a great car.  No need to get the '4' as the GTS has the wide body and is as stable as you could ever need.  Suggest you give it a test drive...

    Oh, and welcome to Rennteam..kiss

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    The ducktail isn't available to order until April production from memory.


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Lcfc:
    Hi there! I'm looking to replace my current dd( 997.2 carrera 4 coupe) for either a carrera 4 gts (probably new) or the new 991 carrera s. How much more practical is the 991 and does anyone know about the driving experience compared to the gts or even my current car? But that is not top priority as my other car is my driving machine! Does anyone know more about the body kit for the new one with the ducktail spoiler? Available in the uk or is it even real in the first place??

    Many thanks

     

    If the price tag is similar, I would go for the new 991 without any doubt. The new chassis alone is worth it.

    If you have a substantial advantage by going for the Carrera 4 GTS, go for it. You can't go wrong either way.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    +1 :)

    Ideally, I would wait till any 'new model' problems have been sorted out. If you can wait 1-2 years, I would get a 991.

    If you can't wait, then you can't go wrong with a 997.2 GTS 4 ... a 991 would be great right now except for any new model gremlins.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Totally subjective decision, which has to be determined on the basis of your own personal situation and preferences.  I can't see how the 991 can be any more "practical" than the 997.  No one here has first-hand experience of driving a 991 yet, so all we have to go on for now are the first impressions of a few journalists.

    I can tell you what I'm doing, but that may not be ideal for you.  I've ordered a Carrera GTS (not a 4 GTS, can't see any reason to go for AWD rather than RWD), which should be arriving in about 2 weeks.  I'll probably keep this for about 2-3 years and then look at replacing it with a 991 GT3 - provided, of course, that I can afford it at the time.  Smiley


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Sorry, forgetting my manners - welcome to Rennteam.  Smiley


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    I would select the 991 without hesitation simply due to depreciation.  Unless you get a very good price on the GTS the 991 will not depreciate as quickly.  The 997 on the other hand will be seen as OLD regardless of how good it is and how unproven the 991 is.  It is very unlikely that we will see a 993 to 996 style transition to the 991 where the older car is regarded as better (by some).

    just my 2 cents

     


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Leawood911:

    I would select the 991 without hesitation simply due to depreciation.  Unless you get a very good price on the GTS the 991 will not depreciate as quickly.  The 997 on the other hand will be seen as OLD regardless of how good it is and how unproven the 991 is.  It is very unlikely that we will see a 993 to 996 style transition to the 991 where the older car is regarded as better (by some).

    just my 2 cents

     

    Cars depreciate.  They are a lifestyle asset at best, an amortising expense in reality, and a liability at worse, but certainly not an investment.  

    Some depreciate more than others, and more so when a new model comes in.  You may be right that the GTS will depreciate at say, 5 or 10% more than the 991 in the first year or 2, but it's only a relatively marginal disadvantage, and the pricing of the GTS is keen enough to offset much of that.  

    You're getting an instant classic with the 997 GTS, with all the bells and whistles thrown in.  A car heralded by everyone as the best non-GT 997 ever, and the 997 will always be highly regarded, like the 993.  I don't think that the marginally worse depreciation should come into the purchase decision - there are so many more (albeit subjective) considerations to sway one's mind when you're considering the 2 cars.

    Pureblue - Wendy reckons the cars might be ready this Friday, 26th....


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Budster:

    You're getting an instant classic with the 997 GTS, with all the bells and whistles thrown in.  A car heralded by everyone as the best non-GT 997 ever, and the 997 will always be highly regarded, like the 993.

    What you say could be true, but for the RWD model.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    I am sorry but a 997 GTS is not an instant classic.  Never will be.  It is just a 997 with well priced options.  A dated model the minute the 991 comes out.  Don't get me wrong - it is a very nice and fast car - it is simply not a classic.  It is at the end of the model year so for the money I would argue it is going to be not the best value.  I could not recommend the 997 GTs on the basis of it being an 'instant classic'.  A 73' 91 RSR is a classic.  When you said it is the best NON GT ever you said it all - there are tons of GT-2 and GT-3s out there that are more collectible.  A 997 GT-3 would be an excellent choice over a 991. 

     


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    I am guilty of hyperbole.

    But it's far more than well price options when they aren't options. Wider body with wider track not an option you can have on a RWD Carrera (997 or 991).  You can of course get it, along with a Burberry-esque interior, Fuchs wheels, 5mm extra headroom (Smiley) and a duck tail - on the 997 Sport Classic, but that'll cost you more.  A lot more.

    Intake manifold improvements not an option on a Carrera 997 and not yet even put into the 991S.  That'll come in 2013...

    In 5 or 10 years, P fans will point out a passing CGTS but however better a car, a 2012 991 will be nothing more than the cheapest entre into the pre-owned 991 market, "before they improved x, y an z".

    "Get the 2014 - it's worth the extra $10,000" we'll say to new Rennteamers.

    So no, maybe not a classic, but a sought after model that will actually stabilize it's value after 7 or 8 years and, dare I say, eventually be worth more than the 2012 991. There goes the hyperbole again. Or maybe not..?

    I'm not sure a comparison with a GT3 or GT2 is relevant, which is why was clear in my exclusion.  Different beast, at any price.


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Leawood911:

    I am sorry but a 997 GTS is not an instant classic.  Never will be.  It is just a 997 with well priced options.


    I beg to differ. As pointed out by Budster, the GTS features options that were not available on other Carrera models and especially not available in this combination. Centerlock wheels, bigger fueltank and wider rearend come to mind. Models that have been appreciated and sought after right from their initial sales date will also more likely maintain their appreciation on the 2nd hand market. Of all 997 models available, the GTS and GT3 are the cars that I consider most likely to become sought after over the years... and the ones I appreciate the most.

    Smiley


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Leawood911:

    .... for the money I would argue it is going to be not the best value.  


    IMvHO the 997 GTS is a bargain ... it even includes a powerkit ... it is one of the very few models currently sold by Porsche that is outstanding value for money.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Ferdie:
    Centerlock wheels, bigger fueltank and wider rearend come to mind. 

    Smiley

    Woops - forgot the wheels too.  Sadly the bigger fuel tank isn't available on the RHD models due to the steering configuration.  (That's the hydraulic steering configuration to be completely clear...Smiley)

     


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    easy_rider911:

    IMvHO the 997 GTS is a bargain ... it even includes a powerkit ... 

    I suppose the powerkit is the only aspect that doesn't help in the vs. 991 debate, as the 991S is only a couple of horses less powerful, but of course it's a fantastic free (in this case, real) "option" compared to the 997.


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Glad I was able to stirr up the debate.  I agree the options on the GTS are unique and well priced.  I am certain Porsche is reading this exchange and thinking they priced all the choices very well to spark such a debate.

    I would take a GT-3 997 over a 991 at this time, just my choice.  Not a 997 GTS over a 991S


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Correct. Porsche has people monitoring what is being discussed on all Porsche related car forums, including Rennteam.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Lcfc:
    Hi there! I'm looking to replace my current dd( 997.2 carrera 4 coupe) for either a carrera 4 gts (probably new) or the new 991 carrera s. How much more practical is the 991 and does anyone know about the driving experience compared to the gts or even my current car? But that is not top priority as my other car is my driving machine!


    Hello Lcfc, a warm welcome to the forum from me as well. What are you looking for in your next car and is there anything you would like to change on your current 997? How long do you keep the cars? If you are looking for a daily driver, it might be worth the wait for the 991 but this is indeed very dependent on your usage. From present articles the new model seems to be more compliant in regular conditions, with better stability and comfort, yet offer better handling due to the improvements on chassis and suspension.


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Lcfc:
    Hi there! I'm looking to replace my current dd( 997.2 carrera 4 coupe) for either a carrera 4 gts (probably new) or the new 991 carrera s. How much more practical is the 991 and does anyone know about the driving experience compared to the gts or even my current car? But that is not top priority as my other car is my driving machine! Does anyone know more about the body kit for the new one with the ducktail spoiler? Available in the uk or is it even real in the first place??

    Many thanks

    From what I can gather you don't keep your cars for a long time (changing your 997.2 after 3 years). If that is the case and you want to change for the pleasure and variety a new car brings, it's best IMO if you went for the GTS (RWD is more enjoyable) and changed to the 991.2 at facelift time after 3-4 years. Porsche "facelifts" are very thorough because they introduce new features and improvements and more HP  not just cosmetic changes. The 991 and its new systems will be honed by then. See the improvements between 997.1 and 997.2 as an indication of what is to be expected.

    If you were to buy a new Porsche now,  to keep for many years I would say go for the new model.

    Nevertheless it's always very good to have such pleasant dilemmas Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    +1 totally agree...

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Leawood911:

    I am sorry but a 997 GTS is not an instant classic.  Never will be.  It is just a 997 with well priced options.  A dated model the minute the 991 comes out.  Don't get me wrong - it is a very nice and fast car - it is simply not a classic.  It is at the end of the model year so for the money I would argue it is going to be not the best value.  I could not recommend the 997 GTs on the basis of it being an 'instant classic'.  A 73' 91 RSR is a classic.  When you said it is the best NON GT ever you said it all - there are tons of GT-2 and GT-3s out there that are more collectible.  A 997 GT-3 would be an excellent choice over a 991. 

     

    I tend to disagree (yes, I have a 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet but it is a lease, so I couldn't care less about what happens with the car after the lease runs out in 12 months).

    The 997 Carrera GTS will be a classic sooner or later, it is a very special model (408 hp engine, wider body). Those who paid a premium for the Sport Classic or even the Speedster, will feel very very foolish sooner or later. The Sport Classic already sells for huge discounts, used cars already lost more than 70000 to 80000 EUR here in on the market, amazing depreciation. 

    So in the end, yes, the Carrera GTS (not the Carrera 4 GTS...caution !) will be a classic and it may be a better value keeper in 10-20 years or later.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    The last classic 911 is the 993. Some 997 models will depreciate less than others, but will not become classics in 10-20 years. There are just too many 996 and 997s produced and that will impact also the "limited" editions.


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

    Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    993Targa:

    The last classic 911 is the 993. Some 997 models will depreciate less than others, but will not become classics in 10-20 years. There are just too many 996 and 997s produced and that will impact also the "limited" editions.

    It will change. Many people in their 20s and 30s already almost forgot that there was a 993...

    I recently talked to a guy who bought a 996. When I asked him why he didn't look into the 993, I really hate the 996 look, he looked at me very surprised and asked me "993 ? What is the 993 ?". I'm not kidding. He didn't make a difference between the 993, 964 and the older 911, for him, all looked almost the same. This is why he looked into the 996...more modern design and of course...cost. He paid 36000 EUR for a used 996 Carrera 2.

    Yes, the 993 is special but the 997 Carrera GTS has very good chances to become a classic too in a couple of years. It is the only 2WD 997 Carrera with the wider 4 body.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    RC:
    993Targa:

    The last classic 911 is the 993. Some 997 models will depreciate less than others, but will not become classics in 10-20 years. There are just too many 996 and 997s produced and that will impact also the "limited" editions.

    It will change. Many people in their 20s and 30s already almost forgot that there was a 993...

    I recently talked to a guy who bought a 996. When I asked him why he didn't look into the 993, I really hate the 996 look, he looked at me very surprised and asked me "993 ? What is the 993 ?". I'm not kidding. He didn't make a difference between the 993, 964 and the older 911, for him, all looked almost the same. This is why he looked into the 996...more modern design and of course...cost. He paid 36000 EUR for a used 996 Carrera 2.

    Yes, the 993 is special but the 997 Carrera GTS has very good chances to become a classic too in a couple of years. It is the only 2WD 997 Carrera with the wider 4 body.

    WOW!!! 36k EUR for 996!??? For that money you buy 997 C4 2005-6 in here and even that is viewed as a really good depreciation !!! Seems like buying into Porsches is similar to investing! They hold value really well... Smiley


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    The 996 he bought was in mint condition, last model year I think, fully loaded and had only 23000 km. He has looked at many 996 and 997 but those 996 for under 30000 EUR were in a pretty bad shape and those 997 in good condition had too many km (80000 and more) or were in bad shape too. I know that 36k EUR for a 996 is a lot but his car really looks good and he plans to drive it for a very long time. I still would have gone for a 997 though...for 42000 EUR, there was a pretty good 2005 997 Carrera S available, only 30000 km or so...

    Oh, the 36k also included a set of winter wheels, unfortunately the tires are already 6 years old, so they need to be exchanged.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    RC:

     I still would have gone for a 997 though...for 42000 EUR, there was a pretty good 2005 997 Carrera S available

    My friend just bought a 2005 997 Carrera S for R700,000.  That's EUR63,000..!

    Porsches hold their value far better in South Africa (whilst over the long term our currency devalues by about 5% pa in real terms...)  Whilst it means there are no pre-owned bargains, it's nice to know that the car you're buying retains it's value - almost completely nominally, and not so badly in real terms too..

    (Bear in mind we pay about 25-30% premium on the new price vs. Europe too though...)


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    Imo, the only 997 to be a real classics will be the GT3 RS 4.0 and GT2 RS


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Carrera 4 gts or new 991??

    RC:
    Many people in their 20s and 30s already almost forgot that there was a 993...

    I recently talked to a guy who bought a 996. When I asked him why he didn't look into the 993, I really hate the 996 look, he looked at me very surprised and asked me "993 ? What is the 993 ?". I'm not kidding. He didn't make a difference between the 993, 964 and the older 911, for him, all looked almost the same.

    I have no doubt you are right.  But there will always be 2 types of Porsche buyers: those that appreciate the car for what it is, and those just looking to impress others.  We all get accused of being the 2nd, but we wouldn't be on Rennteam if we weren't actually all very much members of the 1st category.

    So I wonder if, a couple of years down the track, you friend - if he's in the 1st category - doesn't start thinking whether he got the "right one"?  Of course having said that, the 996 is sadly a very under-rated car - it's still a wonderful 911!

    It's a pity actually that Rennteam doesn't have a higher degree of 911 owners from the 60's through to the 90's.  I'll be driving my 997 GTS in 30 years, so I'll be in that "classic" category then - watch this space!!Smiley

    (BTW: when will the 991 become a sub-category on Rennteam..?)


     
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