Aug 25, 2011 8:36:36 PM
- Pentium
- Rennteam Master
- Loc: Earth , Romania
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- Registered on: Apr 27, 2003
- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Aug 25, 2011 8:36:36 PM
Aug 25, 2011 9:05:07 PM
Aug 25, 2011 9:56:59 PM
Aug 25, 2011 10:49:43 PM
Trundle_GT3:
Interesting, you can have the model name deleted, but "PORSCHE" lettering will remain!
"911" may replace the model name
I believe this option started with the new Cayenne.
2006 997 C2S Cab, Triple Black, 2006 Cayenne Titanium Iceland Silver Metalic New York
Aug 25, 2011 11:05:53 PM
ADias:I do not need to drive it. Just look at it! Larger, GT luxury, ridiculous sunroof, electric e-brake, 20 inch rims, electric power-steering, overly complex curves/rear. The active roll-bars fit in a large sports sedan or SUV, not in a sports car. More tech to go wrong. If you like a simple, timeless shape, that is lost. You like it, and that is great. I do not. I may keep my car forever, or move on to a Cayman, which may now be closer to my concept of a sports car.
I am not putting down the car. I am sure many will like it. PAG knows that and that is why they designed it this way, along with some other political reasons. Performance-wise I have no doubt it will be better. But for some of us, that is not the ideal direction. There are incredibly performing GTs and I would never want them.
A 993 owner could say the say thing about the 997... but by 10 fold, and so a 964 owner about the 993, and so on. There is no unmovable line, its just evolution, and so far in over four decades they got every single evolutionary step right, the 997 is proof of that, so I think they deserve at least the benefit of the doubt and a test drive before jumping to conclusions, I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is the pre-emptive negativety towards the 991 based on pictures, it will likely beat the 997 in every category, yes even in "nine-eleveness", but it doesn't make our 997 any less than they were before Anyway, we will be in a better position to discuss that part after we test drive it and come to a conclusion, right now the only conclusoin we can draw is that you do not like its looks vs a 997 based on pictures, and I do, and I have to admit it kind of grows on me more and more the more I look at it, can't wait to see it live.just hope it drioves in the same manner cause thats were it counts
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Aug 25, 2011 11:10:00 PM
The only way to solve the puzzle of 911 evolution is to own several from a wide range of model years (over a lifetime or all at once, if budget allows). Every model year is a compromise in some ways compared to other model years, but they are all interesting and each is best at something.
73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs). Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello
To those saying the 991 is now all GT: The interior isn't really all that more luxurious than the 997's. It's just higher quality. And most of the stupid nanny sytems the 991 comes with that you managed are optional. The only one that isn't is the electric steering, but if you think the other electronic systmes will ruin the feel, don't order them. And how the heck does the design of the rear end of a car effect driving dynamics!? It's almost as if you're saying, yup the tail lights are recessed. That means there's no more driving feel or pleasure.
Give me a break guys! Give me a base Carrera with a manual and hardly any options and I'd be happy as can be!
Aug 26, 2011 2:04:36 AM
Aug 26, 2011 3:30:23 AM
Carrara:
To those saying the 991 is now all GT: The interior isn't really all that more luxurious than the 997's. It's just higher quality. And most of the stupid nanny sytems the 991 comes with that you managed are optional. The only one that isn't is the electric steering, but if you think the other electronic systmes will ruin the feel, don't order them. And how the heck does the design of the rear end of a car effect driving dynamics!? It's almost as if you're saying, yup the tail lights are recessed. That means there's no more driving feel or pleasure.
Give me a break guys! Give me a base Carrera with a manual and hardly any options and I'd be happy as can be!
I Thank you for saying this...... I agree with you 100%!! Lets keep it more on tech. data which 991 offers... rather than objective views on 991's look. I am having a headache of what options to order, and would love it if anybody could translate the whole manual.... Is there a program that does the translation on PDF file?
ADias:
reginos:
palenimbus:
Beautiful profile!!
What a clean shape Nothing unnecessary, nothing superfluous. Muscle at the right places and plenty of elegance too.
Some people say the Porsche Design Department is lazy but I think it is very difficult to make successive generations of the 911 and be able to match the new elements with the traditional cues
BTW from this picture we can see that the drooping outer part of the front LEDs in profile. This design detail helps to make the side of the front bumper look slimmer and more analogous with the rear bumper that has the reflectors lower down. That's how it appears to my eyes at least.
--"Form follows function"
I do not argue taste. Like what you will, but clean shape? Look again... it's a longish profile (a la Jag XK), slightly hunchback (a la Panamera) with a bunch of weird creases and bulbous Toyota/Hyundai-looking headlights.
Here is a clean shape:
Let me guess...is that your car?
Aug 26, 2011 4:25:32 AM
Carlos from Spain:
ADias:I do not need to drive it. Just look at it! Larger, GT luxury, ridiculous sunroof, electric e-brake, 20 inch rims, electric power-steering, overly complex curves/rear. The active roll-bars fit in a large sports sedan or SUV, not in a sports car. More tech to go wrong. If you like a simple, timeless shape, that is lost. You like it, and that is great. I do not. I may keep my car forever, or move on to a Cayman, which may now be closer to my concept of a sports car.
I am not putting down the car. I am sure many will like it. PAG knows that and that is why they designed it this way, along with some other political reasons. Performance-wise I have no doubt it will be better. But for some of us, that is not the ideal direction. There are incredibly performing GTs and I would never want them.
A 993 owner could say the say thing about the 997... but by 10 fold, and so a 964 owner about the 993, and so on. There is no unmovable line, its just evolution, and so far in over four decades they got every single evolutionary step right, the 997 is proof of that, so I think they deserve at least the benefit of the doubt and a test drive before jumping to conclusions, I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is the pre-emptive negativety towards the 991 based on pictures, it will likely beat the 997 in every category, yes even in "nine-eleveness", but it doesn't make our 997 any less than they were before Anyway, we will be in a better position to discuss that part after we test drive it and come to a conclusion, right now the only conclusoin we can draw is that you do not like its looks vs a 997 based on pictures, and I do, and I have to admit it kind of grows on me more and more the more I look at it, can't wait to see it live.just hope it drioves in the same manner cause thats were it counts
--
Carlos: Relax! It's just my opinion... Yeah based on what I see and know - a government-regulations-influenced car design (larger footprint, longer WB) which must affect driving dynamics and adds to the longish/flat look (a la Jag XK), a contorted rear with broken lines and creases, funky looking bulbous headlights (a la Japanese cars), an overly busy interior, a laughable sunroof, and a Chinese-looking bumper. It's all there for all to see. Some see it and go gaga and call it evolution, others like me, see it for what it is, a compromise of its essential DNA.
Performance is not in question - I bet it will perform better than a 997 - a car 'on rails'. And for many that will be great and will yield great on-paper performance bragging rights. But I think differently. Heck... a Panamera probably performs better than a 997... it can be faster, more stable, 'on rails' on many tracks. And yes, a Panamera is a great car. But I drive a 911 for its quirky dynamics which I love and know how to drive...
I have no problem with the 991, I have a 997 and there's a plethora of fantastic 911 gens on the market available for sale, any time I want. There is a point in a design evolution where the design strays too much. My bet is that we've reached that point.
I drive currently a 997.2S and a 996 Turbo. The 997.2S is the better car, but the 996 Turbo (even with unspooled turbos), may be more fun to drive on certain roads. The 991's WB is longer than the Cayman and that says it all... Heck! I might prefer a Cayman R over a 'stable' 991.
Yeah... I'm the odd-man-out. But I do not care for fashion and there are certain tenets that are so well established that when thy stray away they lose value for me.
I still look forward to hearing your evaluation of the 991 driving dynamics when you have a real chance to put it to its paces on the roads you and I know. I am not interested to hear that it's better (I know it is), but rather interested to hear what we are missing.
Many on this forum seem offended to hear a contrarian view. Please don't! It's just my opinion, and only I care about it.
_________________________________________________________________
"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.
DavidSF:
Let me guess...is that your car?
Yes, it's my car. But any 997 will do for the comparo I was making. :)
_________________________________________________________________
"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.
ADias:
reginos:
palenimbus:
Beautiful profile!!
What a clean shape Nothing unnecessary, nothing superfluous. Muscle at the right places and plenty of elegance too.
Some people say the Porsche Design Department is lazy but I think it is very difficult to make successive generations of the 911 and be able to match the new elements with the traditional cues
BTW from this picture we can see that the drooping outer part of the front LEDs in profile. This design detail helps to make the side of the front bumper look slimmer and more analogous with the rear bumper that has the reflectors lower down. That's how it appears to my eyes at least.
--"Form follows function"
I do not argue taste. Like what you will, but clean shape? Look again... it's a longish profile (a la Jag XK), slightly hunchback (a la Panamera) with a bunch of weird creases and bulbous Toyota/Hyundai-looking headlights.
Here is a clean shape:
I like the 997.2 as much as you but I think with the new car Porsche have excelled themselves. There are always some fresh styling elements that take some time to get used to. Remember the debates even about the transition from 997 gen 1 to gen2, where changes were minimal. People resist change or they want change to be according to their own wishes.
The shape is as clean as they come. Nothing in waste, nothing in excess merely for impression. I cannot see any similarity to the XK or to any other car myself. In a world full of busy recent designs from BMW and Mercedes the clean shape of the 991 is like a breath of fresh air
The major changes in size were dictated by functional reasons, not for gimmickry. Larger passenger space, more stability through longer w/base, wider front track and engine little more front, various statutory regulations, mandatory in most markets. A typical Porsche philosophy of "Form follows Function".
I'm sure the 991 will be your next car, very soon
--
"Form follows function"
Aug 26, 2011 4:50:54 AM
Aug 26, 2011 5:47:56 AM
Aug 26, 2011 6:10:57 AM
Trundle_GT3:
Interesting, you can have the model name deleted, but "PORSCHE" lettering will remain!
"911" may replace the model name
If the letters are glued with '' sticky tape ''( as they are on any 997 models ) , one can just pull on them and they come off. The ' delete' option is also a ' do it yourself'
997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm
Aug 26, 2011 6:25:33 AM
The 997 looks now like a '' classic'' . I must say after the first ' woaw' factor of the 991, I am liking the 997 shape again a lot , as it has still the typical roof line that goes way back in time.
The 991 looks more modern and aggressive, but I think the 997 will be the next 993
--
997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm
Aug 26, 2011 7:03:48 AM
Carlos from Spain:
ADias:I do not need to drive it. Just look at it! Larger, GT luxury, ridiculous sunroof, electric e-brake, 20 inch rims, electric power-steering, overly complex curves/rear. The active roll-bars fit in a large sports sedan or SUV, not in a sports car.
A 993 owner could say the say thing about the 997...
100% agree, Carlos. Plus: the competition (Ferrari 458, California, McLaren, Audi, Lambo) etc. has the same features (ebrake, electrical steering, suspension electronics etc. etc.).
In the end the electronics are irrelevant - if the car drives and feels like a 911 should drive and feel. So let's wait for the test drive
Gnil:
Trundle_GT3:
Interesting, you can have the model name deleted, but "PORSCHE" lettering will remain!
"911" may replace the model name
If the letters are glued with '' sticky tape ''( as they are on any 997 models ) , one can just pull on them and they come off. The ' delete' option is also a ' do it yourself'
You can do whatever you like with the model names at the back. For example here it's Carrera S instead of 911 Carrera S:
Anyway the PORSCHE lettering at the back is not new:
--
"Form follows function"
991 is not only cleaner in terms of its front end looks from the 997, but they've used the Cayenne lightweight treatment and environment/fuel efficiency on it too.
The weight saving gained by making it a 3.4L instead of 3.6L (Carrera), reduced rolling resistance, etc has made a downsize more potent! 350HP (257kW) from a naturally aspirated 3.4-litre six banger!!!!!
Current steeds in the stable and recently sold include: Porsche 996/911 (2004) '40 Jahre' Anniversary - 363bhp, Porsche-VW 914 (1973) 1.7 - 78bhp, Volkswagen Tiguan (2008) 2.0TFSi - 200bhp, Volkswagen Touareg (2009) V6 - 280bhp, Volkswagen Golf Mk3 (1993) VR6 - 189bhp
MKSGR:
Interesting how much cleaner and more well balanced the 991 front looks compared to the 997TT
To be honest, I don't think that it is "fair" to compare the clean 991 with the cluttered front of the 997 turbo. A comparison to a normal 997.2 would be fairer.
But; you're right, it is way cleaner than the turbo.
bobr:
RC How about your official test drive report for the 991?
We're in the process of trying to get a test car but unfortunately Porsche seems to be (officially) more interested in providing test cars for larger publications.
Maybe we can manage something different but my hopes aren't too high. Many things have changed...
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
ISUK:
A pic of the rear seats.
Thanks a lot, I was waiting for this one.
Unfortunately the rear space doesn't look as good as I expected, especially the back rest seems to be as uncomfortable as ever, horrible. I'm going to check that in the "real thing" but my hopes of more comfortable rear seats have been just crushed.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
RC:
ISUK:
A pic of the rear seats.
Unfortunately the rear space doesn't look as good as I expected, especially the back rest seems to be as uncomfortable as ever, horrible. I'm going to check that in the "real thing" but my hopes of more comfortable rear seats have been just crushed.
Actually I'm really happy about it - imagine if they made them more practical - everyone would be driving 911's!
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