Until now you had a 'purer' Carrera, meaning that the main focus was the chassis, suspensions and engine.

Now  comfort is part of the main goals of the car. That to me puts it into the GT category ( not that is bad or negative ) , just that the car is now in a slightly different category,  closer to AM, or making it a car that the general public  will want to drive on long journeys , making it in that sense a GT.

And yes, customers who prefer a ' firmer ride', a  steering with more 'movements' ,  are kindly pushed towards the GT3/GT2 . I am sure the 991 GT3 will be even more accessible as a DD then the 997.2 . Maybe in the longer run, the GT3 will be the ' sports car' and the GT3 RS the ' track car ' 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

It is interesting to see, even in this forum (supposedly populated by sports car enthusiasts), posters openly embracing more comfort, softer suspension, more relaxed driving, and so on. PAG really knows their customers,

Another point - many of these people now embracing GT characteristics used to profess hard core features, such as stick shift shifting instead of PDK. Now they are ready to accept a car that has broad steering control, almost driving itself. Funny!

--

_________________________________________________________________ 

"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.

So far from the tests I have read (including Chris Harris- hardcore sportscar enthusiast if there is ever one), the 991 seems to be more comfortable and noble in normal driving, but when the going gets tough in spirited driving or track it trumps the 997 in handling, performance, efficiency... and all round sportiveness. One example is the steering, it seems that in normal cruising at 12 o'clock its softer and less nervous but there is no complaint anymore when outside the 12 o'clock position and its precision and control in hard cornering. Another is the PASM that while they mention that its more compliant than the 997, it is also more effective in handling and grip.

Also the 991 Carrera has more sport oriented options and features than any of the 997 Carrera variants or special editions ever had;  PTV, PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, two types of rear differentials, wider front track, etc as well as improved the 997 ones such as S-PASM, PDK, 7-speed manual, brakes, etc. So while you can theoretically option a 991 to be more GT'ish than a 997, appealing to a broader audience, but you can also option a 991 to be much sportier than a 997 as well appealing to the more sportish enthusiasts.

That is what we know based on the information we have so far from the journalists, on information we don't have I won't speculate. I still have to test it and see for myself to know for sure what its really like compared to the 997 since I'm very familiar with the 997 Carrera, and as far as 997 Carrera's go, it doesn't get sportier and "more pure" than the 997.1 -20mm manual I have, so that is a great reference for comparison. 

--

Carlos from Spain:

So far from the tests I have read (including Chris Harris- hardcore sportscar enthusiast if there is ever one), the 991 seems to be more comfortable and noble in normal driving, but when the going gets tough in spirited driving or track it trumps the 997 in handling, performance, efficiency... and all round sportiveness. One example is the steering, it seems that in normal cruising at 12 o'clock its softer and less nervous but there is no complaint anymore when outside the 12 o'clock position and its precision and control in hard cornering. Another is the PASM that while they mention that its more compliant than the 997, it is also more effective in handling and grip.

Also the 991 Carrera has more sport oriented options and features than any of the 997 Carrera variants or special editions ever had;  PTV, PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, two types of rear differentials, wider front track, etc as well as improved the 997 ones such as S-PASM, PDK, 7-speed manual, brakes, etc. So while you can theoretically option a 991 to be more GT'ish than a 997, appealing to a broader audience, but you can also option a 991 to be much sportier than a 997 as well appealing to the more sportish enthusiasts.

That is what we know based on the information we have so far from the journalists, on information we don't have I won't speculate. I still have to test it and see for myself to know for sure what its really like compared to the 997 since I'm very familiar with the 997 Carrera, and as far as 997 Carrera's go, it doesn't get sportier and "more pure" than the 997.1 -20mm manual I have, so that is a great reference for comparison. 

Gnil:

Until now you had a 'purer' Carrera, meaning that the main focus was the chassis, suspensions and engine.

Now  comfort is part of the main goals of the car. That to me puts it into the GT category ( not that is bad or negative ) , just that the car is now in a slightly different category,  closer to AM, or making it a car that the general public  will want to drive on long journeys , making it in that sense a GT.

And yes, customers who prefer a ' firmer ride', a  steering with more 'movements' ,  are kindly pushed towards the GT3/GT2 . I am sure the 991 GT3 will be even more accessible as a DD then the 997.2 . Maybe in the longer run, the GT3 will be the ' sports car' and the GT3 RS the ' track car ' 

I don't know why you're surprised or upset that the 991 is a GT car. The 997 was also a GT car, as well as every single base trim 911 since 1963. 

The 911 was originally intended to be a GT sportscar, so it isn't really straying from it's routes. In my opinion, the 991 is still very well a 911, just as it is an awesome performance car, sports car, enthusiasts' car, and GT car. It's definitely one of the most involving and pleasurable sportscar GTs on the market, because if you really think about it, there is no substitute for the 911.

Carrara:

Gnil:

Until now you had a 'purer' Carrera, meaning that the main focus was the chassis, suspensions and engine.

Now  comfort is part of the main goals of the car. That to me puts it into the GT category ( not that is bad or negative ) , just that the car is now in a slightly different category,  closer to AM, or making it a car that the general public  will want to drive on long journeys , making it in that sense a GT.

And yes, customers who prefer a ' firmer ride', a  steering with more 'movements' ,  are kindly pushed towards the GT3/GT2 . I am sure the 991 GT3 will be even more accessible as a DD then the 997.2 . Maybe in the longer run, the GT3 will be the ' sports car' and the GT3 RS the ' track car ' 

I don't know why you're surprised or upset that the 991 is a GT car. The 997 was also a GT car, as well as every single base trim 911 since 1963. 

The 911 was originally intended to be a GT sportscar, so it isn't really straying from it's routes. In my opinion, the 991 is still very well a 911, just as it is an awesome performance car, sports car, enthusiasts' car, and GT car. It's definitely one of the most involving and pleasurable sportscar GTs on the market, because if you really think about it, there is no substitute for the 911.

All this discussion shows is that if you ask ten different car enthusiasts to define what a GT car is you will get eleven different opinions.  

fritz

Source: Wikipedia     (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer)

ADias:

It is interesting to see, even in this forum (supposedly populated by sports car enthusiasts), posters openly embracing more comfort, softer suspension, more relaxed driving, and so on. PAG really knows their customers,

Another point - many of these people now embracing GT characteristics used to profess hard core features, such as stick shift shifting instead of PDK. Now they are ready to accept a car that has broad steering control, almost driving itself. Funny!

Yes, Porsche Knows really well their costumers. That`s why there is so many 911 derivations (Carrera, Carrera S, GTS, GT3, GT3 RS, GT3 RS 4.0, Turbo, Turbo S, 2WD, 4WD, PDK, Manaul, PCCB, PDCC, Sport Chrono, ...............).

I`m glad that Porsche didn`t stop on the past... On the past costumers accept all what the automakers put on their cars, today it`s different, they need to go on Costumers demands... that`s why Porsche made huge profits (remeber the Cayenne controversy?....).

There will be always controversy when Posche decide to go a step forward. When Porsche abandoned the "air-cooled engines" (on 993), many said that the 911 legacy was killed....  Now many Porsche fans argue that 997 is the best 911 generation ever, and 991 didn`t hit the roads yet...

I can`t imagine what would hapened if Porsche follow the way like some automakers (TVR, Mclaren, booth reborn again.... ).

There`s a reason why 80% of all 911 produced since 1963 are still running (according to Porsche sources). So if someone don`t like this "911 progress", they can always get older versions. Fortunately i tend to like all versions. 

A garage with a 356, 911 S (1970), 964 Turbo, 993 GT3, 996 GT3, 997 (anyone ) and a 991 (anyone ) would be perfect for me...

Long live for Porsche 

Carlos from Spain:

So far from the tests I have read (including Chris Harris- hardcore sportscar enthusiast if there is ever one), the 991 seems to be more comfortable and noble in normal driving, but when the going gets tough in spirited driving or track it trumps the 997 in handling, performance, efficiency... and all round sportiveness. One example is the steering, it seems that in normal cruising at 12 o'clock its softer and less nervous but there is no complaint anymore when outside the 12 o'clock position and its precision and control in hard cornering. Another is the PASM that while they mention that its more compliant than the 997, it is also more effective in handling and grip.

Also the 991 Carrera has more sport oriented options and features than any of the 997 Carrera variants or special editions ever had;  PTV, PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, two types of rear differentials, wider front track, etc as well as improved the 997 ones such as S-PASM, PDK, 7-speed manual, brakes, etc. So while you can theoretically option a 991 to be more GT'ish than a 997, appealing to a broader audience, but you can also option a 991 to be much sportier than a 997 as well appealing to the more sportish enthusiasts.

That is what we know based on the information we have so far from the journalists, on information we don't have I won't speculate. I still have to test it and see for myself to know for sure what its really like compared to the 997 since I'm very familiar with the 997 Carrera, and as far as 997 Carrera's go, it doesn't get sportier and "more pure" than the 997.1 -20mm manual I have, so that is a great reference for comparison.

Carlos: You seem to be describing the dynamic characteristics of your car, not the 991. :)

PTV and PDCC are electromechanical add-ons that make a car more complex and more isolated. The GT-R has all of that and was widely criticized by seasoned sports car fans who said - it drives like a Playstation. I read all the 991 reviews and in essence that is what transpires, a higher performer more isolated car. Harris video and the german GRIP video clearly show how the car rotates - it seems to be a cross between a mid-engine and classic RWD like the E63. The rear does not dance in a slalom like your car does so beautifully. That is now lost and it was easy to predict, given the wider front track and longer WB. I long said the 991 is a great performer, but at a price -  complexity, isolation, automation. Most PAG customers do not care, as they do not even know what I am talking about. 

If you read my post above on the electrically-assisted steering wheel you must agree that they crossed the line. The steering actually drives itself, driven by outside inputs. It will actually filter out the wheel response due to changes in road surfaces. It will physically correct itself without any driver intervention, or in spit of. PAG says they did that due to customer demand(!?!) and they call the 997 (and older gens) steering mechanisms 'engineering errors' !?! Just nuts!

_________________________________________________________________ 

"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.

PTV are and PDDC are add ons but that could also be said about PASM and PDK, or even ABS or assited steering if we go back even farther. They are not a bad thing IMO as long as they don't go against sportiveness or improve it. My only contact with PDCC is with the Cayenne and Panamera's and in those two cases it makes the vehicle handle sportier, which may not necesarily translate to the 911 but still is a good sign. I spoke last Saturday with someone who has been testing the 991 in the track, he said that there is a big difference in handling between PDCC-991 and non-PDCC in handling without any artificial feel, and also noted that he tested at the same time a 997GTS and the difference was huge. I take second hand comments lightly, each person's subjective impressions can be night and day and may be completely different than mine, but it was interesting never the less. The PTV does nothing for artificial feel AFAIK, if anything by braking the inner rear wheel it will make the car understeer less and cut the conrners better, that I would speculate would improve sportiveness, kind of like a rear LSD would under acceleration out of a bend.

What I'm most uncertain about still is the steering until I try it for myself, but I don't think it crossed the line if it has some degree of active steering as long as its tweeeked to only be active in certain situations, just like PSM becomes active in certain situations that do not limit my driving or restrict it. So long as it works in the backround and improves safety in certain situations or handing I'm OK with it. As long as with spirited driving the steering is still the full of feedback and direct and precise steering that you and I love.

Anyway, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I try one, they have never dissapointed me before, on the contrary with each model the surpass my expectation so they deserve it  I will let you know my impressions when I test one though.

ADias:

Carlos from Spain:

So far from the tests I have read (including Chris Harris- hardcore sportscar enthusiast if there is ever one), the 991 seems to be more comfortable and noble in normal driving, but when the going gets tough in spirited driving or track it trumps the 997 in handling, performance, efficiency... and all round sportiveness. One example is the steering, it seems that in normal cruising at 12 o'clock its softer and less nervous but there is no complaint anymore when outside the 12 o'clock position and its precision and control in hard cornering. Another is the PASM that while they mention that its more compliant than the 997, it is also more effective in handling and grip.

Also the 991 Carrera has more sport oriented options and features than any of the 997 Carrera variants or special editions ever had;  PTV, PDCC, dinamic engine mounts, two types of rear differentials, wider front track, etc as well as improved the 997 ones such as S-PASM, PDK, 7-speed manual, brakes, etc. So while you can theoretically option a 991 to be more GT'ish than a 997, appealing to a broader audience, but you can also option a 991 to be much sportier than a 997 as well appealing to the more sportish enthusiasts.

That is what we know based on the information we have so far from the journalists, on information we don't have I won't speculate. I still have to test it and see for myself to know for sure what its really like compared to the 997 since I'm very familiar with the 997 Carrera, and as far as 997 Carrera's go, it doesn't get sportier and "more pure" than the 997.1 -20mm manual I have, so that is a great reference for comparison.

 

Carlos: You seem to be describing the dynamic characteristics of your car, not the 991. :)

PTV and PDCC are electromechanical add-ons that make a car more complex and more isolated. The GT-R has all of that and was widely criticized by seasoned sports car fans who said - it drives like a Playstation. I read all the 991 reviews and in essence that is what transpires, a higher performer more isolated car. Harris video and the german GRIP video clearly show how the car rotates - it seems to be a cross between a mid-engine and classic RWD like the E63. The rear does not dance in a slalom like your car does so beautifully. That is now lost and it was easy to predict, given the wider front track and longer WB. I long said the 991 is a great performer, but at a price -  complexity, isolation, automation. Most PAG customers do not care, as they do not even know what I am talking about. 

If you read my post above on the electrically-assisted steering wheel you must agree that they crossed the line. The steering actually drives itself, driven by outside inputs. It will actually filter out the wheel response due to changes in road surfaces. It will physically correct itself without any driver intervention, or in spit of. PAG says they did that due to customer demand(!?!) and they call the 997 (and older gens) steering mechanisms 'engineering errors' !?! Just nuts!

 

 

Where did you get that info on the steering?

Just like somebody said, everybody thought the sky was falling and the 911 was officially dead when the air cooled engines got swapped for their water counter parts, and now everybody is in love with the 997 and saying it's the last true 911. Similar things were also said when the wheelbase was increased back in 1969. 

Calm down people, you haven't even driven the car! I'm sure its an awesome car, and will go down to be an enthusiasts car just as every single 911 in history has, despite initial criticism. There will always be the initial criticism, but in the end, after all the buzz dies down I'm sure it will be widely recognized as one of the  best 911s in history.

Personally, I'd rather have a 993 just because it is so much simpler, but really, the 991 has evolved. It is not a 993. Besides, if you really wanted a car like the 993, then you can just buy a 993! Nobody is stopping you.

Carrara:

Where did you get that info on the steering?

...

Personally, I'd rather have a 993 just because it is so much simpler, but really, the 991 has evolved. It is not a 993. Besides, if you really wanted a car like the 993, then you can just buy a 993! Nobody is stopping you.

The active electrically-assisted document is a Porsche document.

Your 993 preference - simplicity - is what I have been preaching about. I could see the 'Playstation' development offering in a Panamera 2-door GT. The 991 should instead be simpler/lighter/smaller/spartan more like a Club car.

_________________________________________________________________ 

"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.

pjd:

A garage with a 356, 911 S (1970), 964 Turbo, 993 GT3, 996 GT3, 997 (anyone ) and a 991 (anyone ) would be perfect for me...

Long live for Porsche 

993 GT2, I presume.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

pjd:

A garage with a 356, 911 S (1970), 964 Turbo, 993 GT3, 996 GT3, 997 (anyone ) and a 991 (anyone ) would be perfect for me...

Long live for Porsche 

993 GT2, I presume.

 ups... Yes, of course! My mistake 

Carrara:

The 997 was also a GT car, as well as every single base trim 911 since 1963. 

I remember very clearlly when the 911 debuted in 1965 in the US and we all thought it was no longer a real sports car. It was a GT car, very refined. It had a hard top.

Sports cars, dammit, had wood on the dash and wooden steering wheels and plastic windows you had to slot in the door and a canvas top which no real man would put up no matter how cold it got. If it rained, you just drove faster.

And then we got a drive in a 911 and it was, wow, a revelation. And all those TR4s and MGBs and 356s were suddenly so primitive and old fashioned.

And now we think the '65 911 is quaint.

You gotta move with the times.

--

"I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."

So lets hope we all can drive it soon to find out . I'm hoping to have a test drive next week !

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

"I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."

Gnil:

So lets hope we all can drive it soon to find out . I'm hoping to have a test drive next week !

Me too 

I find the steering concern hilarious. Do you all believe that the steering of the 991 is inferior to prior 911's? Do you believe that the steering of the 991 compromises performance thereby making it inferior to the 997?

My view with respect to those complaining about the steering of the 991 is nothing more than trying to find fault to lend some credibility to their review. A review without some fault can be suspect.

nberry:

I find the steering concern hilarious. Do you all believe that the steering of the 991 is inferior to prior 911's? Do you believe that the steering of the 991 compromises performance thereby making it inferior to the 997?

My view with respect to those complaining about the steering of the 991 is nothing more than trying to find fault to lend some credibility to their review. A review without some fault can be suspect.

 IMO, steering feel is a key ingredient to interfacing with a sports car.  Yes, I think the 991 steering feel will likely be worse than the 997.2 Carrera which I find inferior to the 997.1 Carrera, which I find far inferior to the manual steering of all 911's and 930's made before the change to power steering in 1989.

The cars have improved in many important ways, but the steering has declined siginificantly imo.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Blog from Dan on PistonHeads:

PH BLOG: PORSCHE AND THE RISE OF THE MACHINES

Nope, Dan's not done musing on the Porsche 991 and why it's the manual gearbox that saves it

 

So, one week on from posting the PH review on the Porsche 991 and how am I feeling about it now? Well, I can't lie, writing that roadtest involved more than a bit of soul searching. And quite a few re-writes.

 

The 991 is a massively significant car for the likes of us though. And my thoughts and feelings towards it have veered from one extreme to the other since driving it. Indeed, from reading the press pack. Those initial worries about it being overly computerised were partly calmed on driving it - Porsche has done a fantastic job of keeping the computer assistance in the background and an Audi RS5 it is not. But even though it feels authentic the more I think about it the more I worry about the fact that pretty much every input you make in the car has to go through some sort of computer filtration before being actioned. Brilliantly honed and very subtle in action but there nonetheless. We hacks prattle endlessly about feedback and such things but it's the fact 911s don't treat the driver like an idiot that's made them so appealing to those of us viewing driving as more than just a means of transport.

 

You fight this with a manual gearbox?!

And I think that's why I was so relieved when I got into the manual version. It was, in a way, a last act of defiance against the machines. If I wanted to drive everywhere in first gear I could. If, more pertinently, I wanted to eke out that magnificent (and computer contrived, natch) scream in those final 300rpm for as long as possible I could.

 

There are other nerdy little details too. Call me a Luddite but I quite like the idea of a mechanical LSD in the back rather than an electronic one like you get with PDK. Only if you tick the box for PTV of course.There's also the small matter of the manual gearbox saving 20kg from somewhere in a 911 you really want as little extra weight as possible.

Little things but enough to make a difference in my book. And why, personally, the only 911s that really float my boat are ones with two driven wheels, a fixed roof and three pedals. Turbos do present me with a bit of a dilemma, admittedly. But if I had to really narrow it down I'd say either a basic Carrera 2 manual with the minimum of options. Or something with GT3 in its name. My apologies to the cabrio fans - and there are more on PistonHeads than I thought - for this rather uncompromising approach but each to their own and Porsche is nothing if not generous in accommodating every taste!

The steering of the 997 is inferior to the 996.  But in every other respect the 997 is superior.  It seems almost certain that the 997 to 991 transition will be the same.  The question is whether an individual can accept the compromise and until we've all driven the 991 no one has the answer

Gen II Cayman S

The steering is inferior? Or the steering feel? Because there is a difference. When I first settled into my 997.1, I was disappointed with the steering feel compared to my previous 964, which felt so muscular and direct.

But now that I'm used to it, I feel sure the steering itself is just as precise as ever.

"I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."

Carrageous:

The steering is inferior? Or the steering feel? Because there is a difference. When I first settled into my 997.1, I was disappointed with the steering feel compared to my previous 964, which felt so muscular and direct.

But now that I'm used to it, I feel sure the steering itself is just as precise as ever.

 Feel and feedback (I agree that the new cars are precise - just feel a bit numb to me).

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Carrageous:

The steering is inferior? Or the steering feel? Because there is a difference. When I first settled into my 997.1, I was disappointed with the steering feel compared to my previous 964, which felt so muscular and direct.

But now that I'm used to it, I feel sure the steering itself is just as precise as ever.

Precisely 

The old 1970 Ford Tractor of my Grand-father had also an muscular and direct steering.... 

4 new ones in Vienna. What a great parking lot 

It looks pretty good in that video.

First real image I've seen of the 991 interior without having Full Leather. Looks quite good - at least in black. Much better leatherette than the non full leather 997's. More similar to panamera/cayenne where in my book full leather is not a must have option... I would order PDCC or PSE instead and still save some money... I know that the full leather is standard in some markets, but not where I'm located. Here it's an option costing 3500 EUR and I'm on the fence...

On Order: 991 C2S Basalt Black/Black - PDK, PSE, SPASM, SportChrono, etc.
Sold: 997.2 C2S Meteor Grey/Black - PDK, PSE, LSD, SportChrono, etc.
Sold: 997.1 C2S Black/Black - PSE, PCCB, -20mm/LSD, Short-shifter, SportChrono, etc.

pjd:  The old 1970 Ford Tractor of my Grand-father had also an muscular and direct steering.... 

I am not missing heavy steering.  The manual steering in my lightweight 911 (very little weight supported by each relatively narrow 205mm front tire) is actually as light or lighter than the power steering in a 997 at most speeds.  But the manual rack has MUCH more tactility and information delivered about the amount of grip remaining and has much better on-center feel.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello