Crown

Rossi:

Pentium:
Awesome but flawed as usual with Ferrari, Maserati and Alfa Romeo... Where the hell are you going to place the license/registration number/plate?

That is one of the most annoying things of today's Ferrari.

Ferrari supply a licence plate holder now but it needs to be screwed into the bumper. Needless to say mine is "resting" in the front trunk along with the licence plate

You got it better, Iain, don't get caught driving without the front plate in Germany.

The real problem in case of the 458 is that there really is NO place for the front plate at all. No way you can install a standard front plate without looking stupid, no matter if you use adhesive tapes or nail the plate onto the bumper. The front only looks good with no number plate at all or a small plate like it is common in Switzerland.

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Some cars here uses printed front plates on vinyl sheets, they just stick them on the bumper or top of the bumper.  Are those allowed in Europe?

McLaren buyers should get a crumb of comfort from next week's Top Gear tv review. The 12C will almost certainly post a faster lap time on their track as the original TG 458 test would have been done on either the Bridgestone or Michelin Pilot Sport tyre options available at the launch of the car. TG do not update lap times to take account of any series production improvements. We already know the 12C on Corsa tyres was only a 1/10th of a second slower than the 458 fitted with the new SuperSport option tyre around Dusfold from the 5th Gear review. A faster lap time on TG should therefore be taken with this info in mind. It should definately out accelerate the 458 on the runway test they use to satisfy the American drag racer viewers

What will be interesting to see is if Jeremy Clarkson, a much less adept wheelman than Tiff Needell or Jason Plato, ends up doing a bit of grass cutting as well. I personally don't care about the lap times but the handling issue and lack of emotional involvement (as reported in nearly all of the reviews) from a car at this level would bother me. Been there, done that with an R8 but it costs a fraction of the 12C's price and was a great car at that price point.

One thing seems pretty certain. The cars McLaren used for the press launch in Portugal seem to be a world away in terms of set up from the cars given for magazine and tv reviews. Now.... who mentioned the use of ringers??? Read Chris Harris's column in EVO this month where he mentions this practice (and cites an example of the Aston Martin DB9 launch) where journalists are given cars to review that bear no relation to the final set up sold to customers. I wonder why he specifically chose to mention that in the 12C test issue

Whoopsy:

Some cars here uses printed front plates on vinyl sheets, they just stick them on the bumper or top of the bumper.  Are those allowed in Europe?

 It depends if the car has been certified to use such plates and in order to be certified it needs to meet ceratin requirements in relation to the car's front, bascally that its design does not allow the use of regular plates and so its allowed to use the sticker version on the hood, but thats for rare cars, more comon is that they allow to use the small version of front plate instead.

Based on EVO and Autocar tests the real performance of MP4-12C is as follows :

0-200km/h - 9,5-9,9s

0-300km/h - 32-33s

So those 8,9s/9,1s for 0-200km/h probably can´t be reproduced that easily as McLaren staff claim. And the car reaching 0-300km/h in 24,5s during their testing was probably a F1-successor mule.

Seems like the GT2 RS is still the king both on a track and in the straight line.

mv:

Based on EVO and Autocar tests the real performance of MP4-12C is as follows :

0-200km/h - 9,5-9,9s

0-300km/h - 32-33s

So those 8,9s/9,1s for 0-200km/h probably can´t be reproduced that easily as McLaren staff claim. And the car reaching 0-300km/h in 24,5s during their testing was probably a F1-successor mule.

Seems like the GT2 RS is still the king both on a track and in the straight line.

 Thanks for posting  I agree, 0-300 is not as good as expected (even quite a bit worse than the "official" claim I posted above (approx. 28s))...

MKSGR:

mv:

Based on EVO and Autocar tests the real performance of MP4-12C is as follows :

0-200km/h - 9,5-9,9s

0-300km/h - 32-33s

So those 8,9s/9,1s for 0-200km/h probably can´t be reproduced that easily as McLaren staff claim. And the car reaching 0-300km/h in 24,5s during their testing was probably a F1-successor mule.

Seems like the GT2 RS is still the king both on a track and in the straight line.

 Thanks for posting  I agree, 0-300 is not as good as expected (even quite a bit worse than the "official" claim I posted above (approx. 28s))...

Keep the GT2RS at least until the 991 GT2.
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Here is a very interesting post from FerrariChat -

"I'm not sure how many of you know of Phil Bennet, he's an ex-Le Mans driver, used to hold the record at the ring in the Radical SR3, he an ex-test driver for Noble and Caparo too. These days he runs a trackday company called "The Racing Line".

This guy knows his stuff quite well and is a bit privy to the issues at McLaren.

Alright all the stuff I'm about to post is off the facebook page for his company which he runs and posts on.

I read this stuff quite a while back and all the latest tests have confirmed the issues surrounding the MP4, all this stuff is quite an eye opener, biggest load of information I've read anywhere in regards to the macca beyond simply performance figures.

His first post covering the MP4 was quite general and criticised it for the use of brake steer over a proper LSD

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...92803690748790

His Second post was quite interesting, he kind of slams McLaren for using no roll bars or an LSD, and that ultimately the handling of the MP4 will be compromised. He links it back to the Honda F1 team, which used the same hydraulics set up and it didn't work for them. He also states that it will be interesting whether the GT3 car will the same set-up as the road cars.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...98180070211152

By the end of the month he makes another post in regards to the GT3 car vs MP4 road car.
For those who don't know, The GT3 will not run the road car hydraulics + brake steer set up, instead it will run, guess what, roll bars and an LSD.
This shows that McLaren know that their suspension system using hydraulics is flawed and rectified this problem by using the tried and tested method of roll bars and LSDs.
And for those wondering, Macca have come out and said that the hydraulic system is illegal under the current GT racing regs, however I know for a fact that is completely untrue, they could have run it.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...05857409443418

The last big post he made was about rumors of engine failures, which in turn has delayed the GT3 car, the press release date for its been pushed back. Customer cars have been delayed too.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...20265381335954

If you want to read more, all the posts hes made are under the 'notes' banner.
Chris Harris comments sometimes on the other posts he makes, so he isn't he most unreliable source of information either, this guy used to work in the industry testing in the big EVO tests a few years ago.

The crash at the ring is interesting, because their chief test driver Chris isn't you know, half bad, and after watching that fifth gear video, it is really making me think that the crash may not have been driver error, rather that the MP4 is an absolute animal on the limit."

Rossi:

MKSGR:

mv:

Based on EVO and Autocar tests the real performance of MP4-12C is as follows :

0-200km/h - 9,5-9,9s

0-300km/h - 32-33s

So those 8,9s/9,1s for 0-200km/h probably can´t be reproduced that easily as McLaren staff claim. And the car reaching 0-300km/h in 24,5s during their testing was probably a F1-successor mule.

Seems like the GT2 RS is still the king both on a track and in the straight line.

 Thanks for posting  I agree, 0-300 is not as good as expected (even quite a bit worse than the "official" claim I posted above (approx. 28s))...

Keep the GT2RS at least until the 991 GT2.
 

 Absolutely 

ISUK:

Here is a very interesting post from FerrariChat -

"I'm not sure how many of you know of Phil Bennet, he's an ex-Le Mans driver, used to hold the record at the ring in the Radical SR3, he an ex-test driver for Noble and Caparo too. These days he runs a trackday company called "The Racing Line".

This guy knows his stuff quite well and is a bit privy to the issues at McLaren.

Alright all the stuff I'm about to post is off the facebook page for his company which he runs and posts on.

I read this stuff quite a while back and all the latest tests have confirmed the issues surrounding the MP4, all this stuff is quite an eye opener, biggest load of information I've read anywhere in regards to the macca beyond simply performance figures.

His first post covering the MP4 was quite general and criticised it for the use of brake steer over a proper LSD

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...92803690748790

His Second post was quite interesting, he kind of slams McLaren for using no roll bars or an LSD, and that ultimately the handling of the MP4 will be compromised. He links it back to the Honda F1 team, which used the same hydraulics set up and it didn't work for them. He also states that it will be interesting whether the GT3 car will the same set-up as the road cars.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...98180070211152

By the end of the month he makes another post in regards to the GT3 car vs MP4 road car.
For those who don't know, The GT3 will not run the road car hydraulics + brake steer set up, instead it will run, guess what, roll bars and an LSD.
This shows that McLaren know that their suspension system using hydraulics is flawed and rectified this problem by using the tried and tested method of roll bars and LSDs.
And for those wondering, Macca have come out and said that the hydraulic system is illegal under the current GT racing regs, however I know for a fact that is completely untrue, they could have run it.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...05857409443418

The last big post he made was about rumors of engine failures, which in turn has delayed the GT3 car, the press release date for its been pushed back. Customer cars have been delayed too.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...20265381335954

If you want to read more, all the posts hes made are under the 'notes' banner.
Chris Harris comments sometimes on the other posts he makes, so he isn't he most unreliable source of information either, this guy used to work in the industry testing in the big EVO tests a few years ago.

The crash at the ring is interesting, because their chief test driver Chris isn't you know, half bad, and after watching that fifth gear video, it is really making me think that the crash may not have been driver error, rather that the MP4 is an absolute animal on the limit."

 

 Very interesting, in particular the statements on the drive train technology of the GT3 version and on the engine failure topic...

That last part is pretty scary and steers you away from any macca without a German (BMW) engine 

McLaren MP4-12C full road test by Autocar... 

McLaren MP4-12C 3.8 V8 ROAD TEST

Test date 24 June 2011
Price as tested £168,500
For Sensational performance l Excellent ride quality l Adjustable on-limit dynamics
Against On-track turbo lag l Some understeer in handling mix l Sounds ordinary

BACKGROUND

You can often find “Ferrari/Porsche/BMW (insert your favourite prestige car manufacturer here) should be worried” at the end of a new car review. Quite often nonsense, of course, but it makes a useful, if unimaginative, pay-off.

Well, this time Ferrari is worried. Ever since the firm released details of the 458 Italia, McLaren has been developing the MP4-12C with the express intention of beating Ferrari at its own game. And, regardless of the fact that we marginally preferred the 458 to the 12C on these pages two weeks ago, Ferrari nevertheless still has much to be concerned about.

Our test car is the only current model derivative, which means a 592bhp, twin-turbocharged V8 engine. In the MP4-12C’s nomenclature, ‘12’ relates to its performance level and ‘C’ to its body style. Heaven knows how much power a ‘13’ or ‘14’ would have.

We already know where the 12C sits in its class, but it is nevertheless useful to take a more in-depth look at how it finds itself where it does in the overall pecking order. Revealing the minutiae of its engineering, brilliance and flaws, then, is the purpose of our road test.

DESIGN

We haven’t really touched on the McLaren’s styling until now. However, while it will play no particular part in our verdict, it’s fair to say that the MP4-12C failed to set pulses racing with its styling as effectively as it did with its performance. We suspect that its look will age well, but more than one observer noted that it looked limp compared with, say, a Ferrari 458 or the Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG.

Unlike the front-engined SLS, the MP4-12C is a much closer rival to the 458 Italia. Crucially, both are mid-engined but, instead of having a largely aluminium structure, the McLaren employs a carbonfibre tub. From this, aluminium subframes hang at each end to hold the engine, suspension and ancillaries, and to provide a crash structure. Body panels are aluminium or composite but, in order to reduce repair costs, none is made from carbonfibre.

For the first time, McLaren has set about creating its own engine. Or rather, commissioning one to its own specification. With forced induction becoming essential for improving efficiency (AMG’s latest engines rely on turbos, as will Ferrari’s upcoming V8s), British outfit Ricardo has designed and engineered a 3.8-litre, twin-turbocharged, flat-plane crank V8, which generates a spectacular 592bhp at 7000rpm and a fulsome 442lb ft from 3000rpm all the way through to 7000rpm. With a specific output of 156bhp per litre and 117lb ft per litre, the McLaren provides a class-leading set of figures.

The MP4-12C’s Graziano-designed transmission is, as in the SLS and 458 Italia, a seven-speed, dual-clutch automatic unit with a manual, paddle-shifting override.

Where the McLaren differs most from its rivals, though, is in its suspension. Like most cars of its ilk, it’s coil sprung with double wishbones at each end, but it has linked hydraulic dampers. The set-up is used to pressurise each corner independently in order to resist roll and pitch, negating the requirement for separate anti-roll bars (see Under the Skin).

As standard, the MP4-12C’s brakes are steel, with carbon-ceramic discs an option. McLaren says the steel discs can give a shorter stopping distance but that carbon-ceramics are more resistant to fade with repeated track use. As such, they’re fitted to all of McLaren’s press demonstrators but are likely to be the preferred option of just 30 per cent of customers.

ON THE ROAD

This is the point where things start to become objectively measurable, and it’s here where the McLaren starts to dominate proceedings. The fact that we recorded a 3.3sec 0-60mph time should be regarded with some caution; in both directions we recorded runs in the high 3.2sec bracket, on a showery day with grip at a premium.

By 100mph the MP4-12C’s 592bhp had started to make amends, allowing it to post a time of 6.7sec. It covered the standing quarter mile in 11.1sec at 131.5mph and the standing kilometre in 20 seconds dead. So it is ferociously, apocalyptically quick. The minutiae will keep statisticians at it for a month, but basically, little else with four wheels, a windscreen and number plates will keep up with a 12C on full chat.

The quality of the McLaren’s chat, though, is another matter. At idle it makes a relatively purposeful burble, and its turbos mean performance is strong even from very low revs, although it’s fastest towards its 8500rpm cut-off. To say it ever bogs down would be an overstatement, but from a standing getaway the gearbox sometimes allows engine revs to linger too low for optimal thrust. Then once over, say, 4500rpm, the needle really flies around the revcounter.

There’s noticeable turbo lag on a circuit (see ‘On the limit’, below), though you’d be hard pushed to detect it much on the road. But the turbos have another effect, too. They may well increase the efficiency of this engine, but they don’t do anything for the noise. If you’re listening for the sort of rasp that marks out life with a 458 Italia, or the kind of bellow that makes life with the twin-turbo engine in the new CLS63 AMG so special, you’ll be disappointed. The 12C makes a clean, effective and powerful noise, but when all’s said and done, it’s just a noise.

The seven-speed transmission shifts cleanly, mind, although downshifts are not as whip-crack responsive as in a 458 Italia. Left to its own devices in auto mode, the transmission will change into seventh well at below 1000rpm, where the engine is capable of lugging it out. Predictably, this is the mode in which CO2 emissions of just 279g/km are produced.

Making a car that can sprint to 60mph in under 3.5sec and on to more than 200mph is quite a feat. Making it capable of lapping a circuit almost as quickly as a BTCC race car is even more impressive. But the most astonishing aspect of the 12C is that it can do both of those things yet rides with a quality that at times is the equal of a Mercedes S-class. The MP4-12C’s suspension is remarkable in its ability to absorb bumps and maintain an eerie freedom from pitch and roll, regardless of whether you’re on a motorway or mountain pass.

Where it is less than impeccable is when there are quick, sharp chassis hits taken at speed, such as cats-eyes or drain covers, and then only because the noise they make is amplified within the chassis rather than due to any real intrusion into the cabin. Only if the suspension is fully loaded and takes another thump – under braking, for example – do you feel it through the seat or steering wheel. All in all, the ride is arguably this car’s most impressive facet.

The 12C’s steering is first rate. It’s smooth, slick, linear and capable of filtering out the worst of the feedback while allowing the good bits of feel to filter through. That and the ride make the 12C a supremely unflustered car in which to travel cross-country, and one that allows you to tackle crests, corners and bumps with terrific confidence.

To reach the outer limits of the 12C’s ability you’ll need a circuit, and to turn up your commitment. Ultimately, the 12C is communicative and adjustable, but unlike its more approachable rivals – the 458 Italia, Noble M600 and Porsche 911 GT3 RS – the 12C wants a specific driving style before it reveals all of its secrets (again, see ‘On the limit’). You have to do things its way, not yours. And that’s not always the most satisfying way.

LIVING

Getting in and out of the McLaren will be a broadly familiar experience to owners of cars with similar cockpit tubs, whatever their construction material. A Lotus Elise, Mercedes SLS or Ford GT each requires its occupants to hurdle a wide sill, which in the 12C is coupled to a door that can be awkward to open (due to its electric release) and is reluctant to close without being slammed.

Drop yourself into the McLaren’s two-seat cabin and you’ll find it’s a more businesslike cockpit than its rivals’. The driving position is straight and comfortable, the steering wheel small and relatively thin-rimmed – the same as on a McLaren Formula 1 car, we’re told. Likewise, the 12C’s gearshift paddles resemble those which Messrs Hamilton and Button regularly use, and require a far stiffer pull than most fitted to road machinery.

Happily, the wheel is reserved for steering purposes only. Elegant column stalks, similar in feel and operation to Porsche units, are attached to the column, which itself offers a tremendous range of adjustment. We’d prefer more lateral support from the seats (electrically operated as an option) but otherwise the environment is hard to fault.

Materials and switches are of acceptable quality, although metal, rather than unconvincingly silvered plastic, for the chassis and powertrain modes’ switches wouldn’t go amiss. The cabin of our test car wore a plethora of options that added just over £17k to the 12C’s list price. Whether you prefer the design of the 12C or 458’s cockpit is largely subjective, but we’re unconvinced that even the options quite pull it up to the perceived quality of the Ferrari’s cabin.

On the face of it, the McLaren is a touch cheaper than the 458 Italia, but the 12C does not have standard carbon-ceramic brakes like the Ferrari. However, it is remarkably easy to inflate the prices of either car with options. Our estimates suggest the two will depreciate similarly quickly.

VERDICT

For the MP4-12C to supplant the Ferrari 458 Italia at the top of the class would not take a great deal of effort on McLaren’s part. A more engaging engine note, sharper throttle response and more flexibility in the way it allows its driver to attack a corner would make the difference. For some of our testers, more dramatic styling would have been a requirement, too, although the fact that it falls just short of the class lead is not down to such subjective matters.

Nevertheless, the MP4-12C is a magnificent machine. That many of us expected it to redefine boundaries and expectations says a lot about the engineering talent we expected McLaren to unleash. That the car is so close to the class lead is to McLaren’s credit and, knowing how the company works, we rather suspect its next effort will be easily as worthy as this one.

Verdict: (****1/2) 4.5 STARS

How fast:

0-30mph 1.6 sec
0-60mph 3.3 sec
0-100mph 6.7 sec
0-150mph 15.3 sec
30-50mph in 3rd/4th  1.9 / 2.9
40-60mph in 4th/5th  2.2 / 3.4 sec
50-70mph in 5th  2.8 sec
60-0mph  2.6 sec
Top speed  205 mph
Noise at 70mph  75 dbA

McLaren-MP4-12C_Autocar-road-test

McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia vs Noble M600 vs Porsche 911 Turbo S by EVO magazine...

McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia...

...thanks to Tiff Needell and Jason Plato!

McLaren MP4-12C road test by Autoweek...

 English subtitles would be nice...

2012 McLaren MP4-12C Convertible - First Look...

This could be the car for anyone who thinks the current MP4-12C supercar just isn’t quite close enough in spirit to the McLaren Formula One cars piloted by Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button. The British F1 team and sports car manufacturer is readying a convertible version of its highly acclaimed mid-engine supercar. These illustrations provide a strong hint as to what the finished product will look like once the MP4-12C convertible comes to market, most likely in mid-2012.

Hats Not Recommended

You might want to leave your baseball cap at home. That’s because McLaren’s clever engineers are determined to keep weight down, despite the extra pounds that come with necessary chassis stiffening and the top mechanism itself. The McLaren MP4-12C has an estimated top speed of 205 mph, and it’s likely the convertible version will be almost as rapid.

Our sources have suggested the top will be power-operated and made from lightweight carbon fiber or aluminum. A cloth top might require less work, at least from an engineering standpoint. Yet with the standard MP4-12C coupe starting at $229,000, a high-tech top is pretty much a necessity in this rarefied market – and a pretty good idea in a sports car capable of exceeding 200 mph.

The mechanicals will remain the same as the coupe’s. This means you’ll find a 592-bhp twin-turbocharged 3.8-liter V-8 engine nestled behind the cockpit. A 7-speed twin-clutch Seamless Shift Gearbox (SSG) is the only choice when it comes to swapping gears. Shifting is controlled via paddles mounted behind the steering wheel.

During our time with the MP4-12C coupe, we noted the sensation of speed was sometimes lacking since the car “provides the utmost confidence-inspiring ride calmness for the driver.” With the top down and V-8 engine at full revs, the upcoming MP4-12C convertible should counter these (modest) criticisms.

McLaren-MP4-12C-Convertible_Road-and-Track

everyone check this out ,  12C  kick F458 's Ass by  2.8 sec on TOP GEAR TRACK

This is a repost

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20220266/Top_Gear_S17_Episode_3/page1.html

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

i am sorry.  i know it is repost . i was too happy  forgot to quote it ...

No problem - just enjoy your time here

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

I put this here:

In tomorrow's AutoZeitung there will be a test of the MP4-12C with a 0 to 200 kph time of only 8,7 seconds.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Rossi:

I put this here:

In tomorrow's AutoZeitung there will be a test of the MP4-12C with a 0 to 200 kph time of only 8,7 seconds.

 Its just the McLaren techs doing their "magic" to the press cars to try to reverse all the bad publicity the car  harvested in the media if you ask me. The bad thing is, 0-200 times is not what the press criticises about the car.

McLaren makes modifications to the MP4-12C after initial critiques

The first McLaren MP4-12Cs to reach customers this week will come with a raft of changes designed to bolster the “emotional appeal” of the new £168,500 supercar.
McLaren has been stung by criticism from the car’s press launch. Almost all the world’s major automotive press, including Autocar, placed the MP4-12C below the Ferrari 458 Italia in tests because it lacked the aural drama and sense of occasion to match its pace and dynamic ability.
 

Chief among the changes are an improved throttle response and a “fruitier” exhaust note. A McLaren spokesman said these were changes that had been planned anyway, but the press criticism — and McLaren’s “Formula 1 mentality” — had “upped the pace” of development.
 

“We want drivers to enjoy the car a bit more,” he said. “The changes don’t lead to any performance increase, but they do lead to an emotional increase when you drive the car.”
 

The changes apply only when the MP4-12C is in Track mode. Many of the tweaks are to the car’s Intake Sound Generator, which controls the amount of noise coming from the engine bay into the cabin. A tube containing a butterfly valve runs from the engine’s plenum chamber to the cabin. The valve now opens wider in Track mode.
 

“It was a bit too sensible before,” said the spokesman, “You won’t notice the changes in normal mode, just when you’re really having fun and pushing it.”

koko:

McLaren makes modifications to the MP4-12C after initial critiques

 ........A McLaren spokesman said these were changes that had been planned anyway............

  

Yeah right

ISUK:

koko:

McLaren makes modifications to the MP4-12C after initial critiques

 ........A McLaren spokesman said these were changes that had been planned anyway............

  

 

Yeah right

Read: Normally we would have expected our customers to pay a fortune for these modifications, but after the devastating first tests they will get them for free.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

ISUK:

koko:

McLaren makes modifications to the MP4-12C after initial critiques

 ........A McLaren spokesman said these were changes that had been planned anyway............

  

 

Yeah right

I know
 

Rossi:

ISUK:

koko:

McLaren makes modifications to the MP4-12C after initial critiques

 ........A McLaren spokesman said these were changes that had been planned anyway............

  

 

Yeah right

 

Read: Normally we would have expected our customers to pay a fortune for these modifications, but after the devastating first tests they will get them for free.

My thoughts exactly!

Now what are they going to to with the planned Sports Exhaust that they were going to charge us for?