Crown

 You really may be right ISUK but we cant oversee a few key things that dont make sense here. Al MP4 stats measured in this teat were within 99% of what has been announce by mlaren which is very very remarkable and rare. Weight was within 1kg, accel within .1 sec, braking distance exactly the same.

It is exactly the opposite re the 458. It came 100+kgs lighter (!!) than the previous EVO test, then this 458 suddenly stops 1 mtr quicker than the 12c, thats 13 feet quicker from 60 than in any customer car test before.!!! I have experimented with weight differences and 100+ kgs for a sports car at this power level is massive..

 and then there is this lap time..

Mclaren had a 458 for 2 yrs and calibrated the mp4 to beat it comfortably in every objective way. This was the comment by all first reviews. And now this?

I dont want to be antiferrari and I think a grigio/ black top 458 is the most beautiful car I have ever seen, but this does not make sense to me. Especially after Harris' cry about ferrari ringer test cars.. I smell company politics, EVO especially, not to mention the usual ferrari rat..

 

 

Impressive results from the Fezza for sure.
This comfirms that for similar performance, on a track, an NA engine car is always more responsive and most importantly, more fun.

I haven't driven either but between the Turbo S and the CGT for example, similar performances, but the NA car is more fun, same for the GT3 actually.

Now in terms of weight, McL is bang on what they announced 1434 kgs, impressive!

British engineering and thoroughness!

Ferrari has even gone one step further, the car they loaned to EVO is actually LIGHTER than what they announce officially! 1464 instead of 1485 kgs!!!

You gotta love the Italians!

I may be wrong but I'm sure Ferrari use the standard spec 458 for their published weight figures and that includes the heavier standard wheels and part electric seats. The 458 used for this test had the lighter Sports wheels , race seats (these are 11 Kg lighter than the standard seats) and all of the carbon fibre engine bay options which would help to explain the 21 kg drop. I don't know what spec Mclaren quote on but their test car was also equipped with the lighter wheels, full carbon options and CCB's. That would seem a fair fight in my book

I have to say it wouldn't have bothered me if the Mclaren was/is faster. Mclaren have had nearly a year of tweaking their car alongside a 458 before launch so it really should be faster. Had Maranello launched the 458 after the Mclaren you can bet your house they would have ensured their car was quicker The test results really do seem to be upsetting a lot of Mclaren depositors on various forums though. I simply never realised just how many undiscovered world class professional drivers there are out there for whom a few tenths of a second difference in magazine tests can influence their purchasing decision 

I'm amused by all the conspiracy theories floating around on the net in regard to this result. Just how are Ferrari have meant to have tweaked this particular 458 to claw back the significant HP defecit and lack of the trick aero brake advantage the Mclaren has? The EVO article clearly states Mclaren sent more engineers to the test than Ferrari and also swapped for the Corsa tyres to see if that improved things but to no avail.

It'll be interesting to see what Sport Auto come up with as it looks like CAR may be about to come down on the side of the 458 as well judging by this teaser video.

 At the end of the day, most knowledgeable car enthusiast would pick the 458 over the McLaren. The 458 is better looking, has a better exhaust sound and the sense of occasion when driving it. Which is faster is of little consequence since there is a fraction of a second difference between them.

ISUK:

I'm amused by all the conspiracy theories floating around on the net in regard to this result. Just how are Ferrari have meant to have tweaked this particular 458 to claw back the significant HP defecit and lack of the trick aero brake advantage the Mclaren has? The EVO article clearly states Mclaren sent more engineers to the test than Ferrari and also swapped for the Corsa tyres to see if that improved things but to no avail.

 Its no surpirse as McLaren raised unrealistic expectations with their "rumors" and "inside info" they were leaking during development to build its hype. I mean it was supposed to blow away the 458 by a mile, complete game changer new generation sportcar, and a lot of people believed it or wanted to believe it and not excercised enough caution reagarding development rumors.

Now when it can be compared by thrid parties, its neither significantly faster in acel o track, and testers seem to coincide in that its does everything well but driving experience and exitement is somewhat lacking, a big point in this class of cars. In the end they still pick the 458. And that all by the brittish press not even the Italian.

Maybe the 458 that McLaren bought for testing and comparison was a dud secretly supplied by Ferrari  just jockig.

We will have to wait to the SportAuto though, that should shine some definitive light, but the McLaren needs to distance itself from the 458 much more than this, because its newer, doesn't have yet the image of the Ferrari, and very importantly lacks the dealer and service infrastruture of Ferrari. 

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nberry:

 At the end of the day, most knowledgeable car enthusiast would pick the 458 over the McLaren. The 458 is better looking, has a better exhaust sound and the sense of occasion when driving it. Which is faster is of little consequence since there is a fraction of a second difference between them.

Why would someone pick the MP4 over the 458 Italia, I cannot understand.

It's exactly in the same segment as the Italia and selling at a very similar price but with no realistic and palpable advantages in looks, dynamics, manufacturer reputation and prestige. At this level consumers also like to buy a strong  brand name besides the actual product, which McLaren doesn't have.

To sell consistently (and not just at the beginning) and in order to overcome these obstacles the McLaren should have been priced at the same level as the Turbo S, rather than the Ferrari.

Even their corporate emblem that "adorns" the bonnet makes a very weak statement!

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"Form follows function"

Carlos from Spain:

ISUK:

I'm amused by all the conspiracy theories floating around on the net in regard to this result. Just how are Ferrari have meant to have tweaked this particular 458 to claw back the significant HP defecit and lack of the trick aero brake advantage the Mclaren has? The EVO article clearly states Mclaren sent more engineers to the test than Ferrari and also swapped for the Corsa tyres to see if that improved things but to no avail.

 

 Its no surpirse as McLaren raised unrealistic expectations with their "rumors" and "inside info" they were leaking during development to build its hype. I mean it was supposed to blow away the 458 by a mile, complete game changer new generation sportcar, and a lot of people believed it or wanted to believe it and not excercised enough caution reagarding development rumors.

Now when it can be compared by thrid parties, its neither significantly faster in acel o track, and testers seem to coincide in that its does everything well but driving experience and exitement is somewhat lacking, a big point in this class of cars. In the end they still pick the 458. And that all by the brittish press not even the Italian.

Maybe the 458 that McLaren bought for testing and comparison was a dud secretly supplied by Ferrari  just jockig.

 

We will have to wait to the SportAuto though, that should shine some definitive light, but the McLaren needs to distance itself from the 458 much more than this, because its newer, doesn't have yet the image of the Ferrari, and very importantly lacks the dealer and service infrastruture of Ferrari. 

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Remember what I wrote in 991 spy pics thread?
 

McLaren simply announced semi-officially overoptimistic numbers, specially track times. Some people fell for it, some did not...

My friend that is working for one German car manufacturer was on the Ring during MP4-12C test runs. He told me that sector times were god but, not sensational and for sure not faster then R8 GT or 997.2 GT3 RS. His conclusion was that McLaren is using "leak" marketing as much as possible to create huge demand for its new toy.

BTW, Sport Auto Supertest? Was already booked but, after EVO results it is delayed for autumn since McLaren wants to recalibrate some things... So, if you read between the lines you can expect at least numbers on 458 level(if MP4-12C wont be in HvS hands at least as fast as 458 that means kiss of death IMHO)...

Want a game changer? Wait for next Gallardo/R8 gen-both will be hugely influenced and tuned by Porsche()...

I truly hope that Mclaren do well with their new road car business but as you say Carlos they've been happy to ride along on the "game changer" hype for this car for months now. It really should be leaving the Italia behind in a cloud of dust but it simply doesn't appear to be. The exterior styling is totally subjective but it's interesting to note that Frank Stephenson who was recruited from Ferrari (surprise surprise ) wasn't blown away by the car when he arrived and he changed as much as he could .... which was only headlight details and some minor exterior tweaking.... as the car was too far down the track for a significant restyle. He would have known how the Italia was going to look when he jumped ship.

I've been intrigued about the way prospective buyers have also hyped it online. Let's not forget that Mclaren's F1 success has always come with a third party engine powering their cars unlike Ferrari who build their own power plants. That counts for a lot in my book so Mclaren have a long way to go to prove their worth in this area as their previous road car, the F1, relied upon a BMW engine albeit tuned in conjunction with Mclaren. The sky high exectations of early buyers seem to have ignored this point.

I think the best summation I've read was by Matt Prior in Autocar when he wrote that the MP4 12C is a car that has been designed and honed by racing drivers FOR racing drivers. That doesn't mean it's the best car for enthusiasts who want to be a little bit intimidated by their weekend toy, not wait unitl they are reaching 9.5 tenths on a track before it comes alive. Perhaps Ron's pursuit of perfection has rather missed the bullseye in this regard in the same way the R8 does in comparison to the edgier, less polished Gallardo which is technically inferior but a whole lot more fun to drive IMHO.

 Given the various reviews, does it matter what SportAuto review is? If the McLaren is faster around the Ring by let's say by 5 seconds, I don't think prospective buyers will be impressed. 

Kreso,

I fully agree on the next generation Gallardo/R8   Hopefully Porsche will sprinkle a lot of their magic handling dust on these cars and come up with something spectacular. I really hope Porsche do make their own version of this car as it will be very special.

It is the car I am waiting for. Porsche engineering, quality and dependability is something I had forgotten but now value.

I do not know what has caused me to turn away from Ferrari. In the past I could not wait for the next model and waiting anxiously for its delivery so much so I paid $8000 to ship it by air to get it sooner. Now I don't find the car attracting me.

KresoF1:

Remember what I wrote in 991 spy pics thread?
 

McLaren simply announced semi-officially overoptimistic numbers, specially track times. Some people fell for it, some did not...

My friend that is working for one German car manufacturer was on the Ring during MP4-12C test runs. He told me that sector times were god but, not sensational and for sure not faster then R8 GT or 997.2 GT3 RS. His conclusion was that McLaren is using "leak" marketing as much as possible to create huge demand for its new toy.

BTW, Sport Auto Supertest? Was already booked but, after EVO results it is delayed for autumn since McLaren wants to recalibrate some things... So, if you read between the lines you can expect at least numbers on 458 level(if MP4-12C wont be in HvS hands at least as fast as 458 that means kiss of death IMHO)...

Want a game changer? Wait for next Gallardo/R8 gen-both will be hugely influenced and tuned by Porsche()...

Kreso and Iain, I could not agree more with your assesments 

nberry:

 Given the various reviews, does it matter what SportAuto review is? If the McLaren is faster around the Ring by let's say by 5 seconds, I don't think prospective buyers will be impressed. 

 The importance not being the slight difference but rather the objectivety of the test will lay down to rest any comspiracy theories if the results show that the McLaren is not what it was hyped to be.

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

 Given the various reviews, does it matter what SportAuto review is? If the McLaren is faster around the Ring by let's say by 5 seconds, I don't think prospective buyers will be impressed. 

 The importance not being the slight difference but rather the objectivety of the test will lay down to rest any comspiracy theories if the results show that the McLaren is not what it was hyped to be.

True but remember that as per Kreso's post the car's configuration that will undertake the Supertest will be refined vs. the one that undertook the first reviews by UK mag.  So eventually Mclaren alleged excellency would have need a torough development testing  vs. 458 Italia as benchmark plus first reviews by Uk mag to indeed come at equivalent or better level of performanca than 458 Italia.

AutoExpress video

 I could easily sit in a 458 and just listen to the sound of the engine rev until i run out of gas. even at the rates today. 

Wow wow......WOW!! The CAR magazine supertest result is in. Ben Collins (formerly known as the Stig) drove the cars around Rockingham circuit. Things just go from bad to worse for Mclaren.....

vimeo.com/25352861

McLaren MP4-12C group test by Car magazine...

...featuring the racing driver formally known as "Stig" -- Ben Collins!

 "McLaren says the 12C was suffering from hydraulic suspension problems on the day of the test and has since returned to Rockingham. 

Piloting the same car on the optional Pirelli Corsa tyres, McLaren's chief test driver recorded a time of 01:28:00"

That doesn't say much about the reliability of this car, not to mention the performance is not at all what expected. I think that McLaren took two mayor selling points of this car and hyped them way out of proportion. That is the heritage brought on by the F1 and their claims of epic performance. If they would've played it cooler the car would've been better recieved by critics rather than raising huge disappointment. I still think its a great car, and personally I like it a lot, but the advertisement we've been hearing for months made the car out to be something its not. 

If I had a part in McL PR I would've focused on the racing heritage more, and less comparing it to the actual McL F1 road car. Also I would've pointed out how the first car made entirely by the company has achieved what other brands have spent years to accomplish. IMO that would've softened the critics when t didn't blow the competition out of the water. 

 Oh dear, the bubble seems to be bursting pretty quickly. Still waiting to drive it  before deciding on whether to return the deposit.

Can you imagine what would have been said if Ferrari had tried the "our car isn't working properly" stunt??  

If they can't prep a test car properly in time for the day then what does that say. They must have had a small army of back up support staff with them. Porsche and Lamborghini must be whooping with joy

 Oh, wow, it could not even beat a convertible version of the outgoing Gallardo  and its the newest car of them all ... 4th place!

Maybe McLaren were too naive and inexperienced in the business of making road sportcar to realise that (1) the competition with many many more years of experience building road cars and infrastructure for it would not be so easy to beat, and (2) raising pre-production hype via overoptimistic semi-oficial rumor leaks can be a dangerous game if you don't deliver in the end and by a wide margin at that.

All you need now is for some reliability issues to pop up in a few tests or first custumers and that will put the final nail the coffin.

BTW, not being able to turn off ESP in such a car? I don't not know that 

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ISUK:

Wow wow......WOW!! The CAR magazine supertest result is in. Ben Collins (formerly known as the Stig) drove the cars around Rockingham circuit. Things just go from bad to worse for Mclaren.....

vimeo.com/25352861

 That is a very, very interesting test result indeed. Clearly, the McLaren seems to be slower than expected 

The test result is a bit strange though. The 458 as fast or even slightly faster than the GT2RS - no way  And the R8V10 substantially slower than the SLS - no way either  In summary, this test raises some more questions than the one regarding McLaren's performance...

MKSGR:And the R8V10 substantially slower than the SLS - no way either 

The R8V10 was 2 seconds faster than the SLS 

Good for McLaren that they have already sold out production run of MP4-12C for like 3 years thanks to all that megahype about the car´s performance.  

Improvement of 458 Italia results can be partly explained by tires. Initial tests were with normal Pilot Sports. Now it is using Pilot Super Sports that are said to be considerably better.

Carlos from Spain:

MKSGR:And the R8V10 substantially slower than the SLS - no way either 

 

The R8V10 was 2 seconds faster than the SLS 

Correct Here are the times.

 THe GT2 RS and SLS are a huge disappointment. The RS should have beaten the field by at least a second. The SLS at 1.33 finishing behind the Lambo and Audi is inexplicable. I thought the SLS had better performance. Obviously it is a good GT car but beyond that many questions.

How much do you want to bet that Ferrari sent a "ringer" car to that test.

nberry:

 THe GT2 RS and SLS are a huge disappointment. The RS should have beaten the field by at least a second. The SLS at 1.33 finishing behind the Lambo and Audi is inexplicable. I thought the SLS had better performance. Obviously it is a good GT car but beyond that many questions.

You know that I am big R8 V10 fan. BUT...

Test R8 V10 was equiped with optional suspension(sport), while SLS was with standard suspension. Neither AMG Performance suspension(fixed, conventional very sporty) or AMG Ride Control(adaptive suspension with 3 settings) were used on test SLS. It is a known thing that SLS equiped with optional suspension is faster on ANY track in the world then R8 V10. BTW, R8 V10 also used Corsa tires.

All test published in German and Italian magazines are proving the facts that I mentioned above.

nberry:

 THe GT2 RS and SLS are a huge disappointment. The RS should have beaten the field by at least a second. The SLS at 1.33 finishing behind the Lambo and Audi is inexplicable. I thought the SLS had better performance. Obviously it is a good GT car but beyond that many questions.

 The thing is: the GT2RS is much (!) faster than the 458 not only on based on Supertest data but also in real life: We had some direct and indirect comparisons with our own cars (friend owns a 458, now on Michelin Super Sport tires as well) in Leipzig and Hockenheim. You don't even need to drive the GT2RS well to be substantially faster than the 458. The RS is much, much quicker than its predecessor (GT2) as well. You don't feel it but you can see it in the lap times  With a 458 you stand no chance whatsoever against a GT2RS (comparable drivers, of course). Believe me, we did the test 

P.S.: Apart from the above observation I am also a bit confused by the huge delta in the lap times of the Car Magazine test. I mean: a delta of 5s (!) between those test cars on a track as short as the test track used??? This is all a bit strange.