Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: The future of F1? - Page1

May 16, 2011 10:42:56 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004

The future of F1?

LdM has been rattling Bernie Ecclestone's cage recently with talk of a breakaway series after 2012.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/05/montezemolo-confirms-massa-and-reflects-on-f1s-business-future/

http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/6931611/Luca-s-Billion-Dollar-Battle

The teams can certainly organise a rival series with cars, rules etc BUT where would they race? The assumption is that existing race tracks have non-compete clauses in their agreements with Bernie that prevent them from hosting rival race series.

From a fan's perspective, I like the existing situation ... I don't want to see a 1.6 litre 4 cylinder turbo-charged engine (as Jean Todt has been proposing) and I think this idea will fizzle out.

I think the current set up doesn't favour teams like Ferrari but that's their problem ...

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May 16, 2011 7:45:23 PM

Adam R: Pilot; Loc: Rochester, MN , United States; Posts: 369, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: The future of F1?

I somewhat agree with Ferrari that developing a 1.6L turbo I4 wouldn't be helpful for their road car efforts. The reason I don't completely agree is that they're going to have to develop more efficient engines for their cars at some point. With more manufacturers moving towards green technology, this would certainly help them.

I'd like to see what sort of rules/regulations LdM would like to impose on this breakaway series.

Also, even though I'm a Ferrari fan, I agree with your comment that it is Ferrari's problem. If they're behind, it's their job to develop their cars to catch up.

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May 16, 2011 8:23:28 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Adam R

Re: The future of F1?

They could always go back to the 1.5L V6 Turbo formula........................

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May 16, 2011 11:50:46 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: The future of F1?

Whoopsy:

They could always go back to the 1.5L V6 Turbo formula........................

They got to be too powerful back in 1987, what power output could they achieve now? Smiley

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fritz

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May 17, 2011 6:15:50 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: fritz

Re: The future of F1?

Since it's a turbo engine, power output can easily be moderated by limiting the boost pressure, intake diameter, and about a million other factors :)

1.5L, size wise, it's just about the smallest size for the lowest insurance rate anywhere in the world, so that ties in with the eco theme.

V6, smoother than I4, less vibrations for longer engine life, I6 would be better but V6 is a good compromise for packaging reasons. Another thing, flat-6 can be consider a 180 degree V, so that would invite Porsche to participate :)

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May 17, 2011 7:23:12 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: The future of F1?

Oh God! Please no F1 for Porsche.

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May 17, 2011 9:56:48 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: The future of F1?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13412925.stm

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May 17, 2011 3:02:39 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: The future of F1?

I am actually in favor of limiting the total fuel used during a race.

F1 race typically runs just over 300km, using a modest fuel economy standard, say 20l/100km, gives each team 62 liters of fuel for a race. Anything goes for engine config.

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May 17, 2011 3:09:44 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: The future of F1?

Whoopsy:

I am actually in favor of limiting the total fuel used during a race.

F1 race typically runs just over 300km, using a modest fuel economy standard, say 20l/100km, gives each team 62 liters of fuel for a race. Anything goes for engine config.

I wholeheartedly share your opinion. It would encourage drivers, contructors as well as engine manufacturers to take economical aspects into account, far more than has been done so far. It would also encourage downsizing far more than it has in the past and not forced upon the participants due to shady regulations.

The message this concept would send out is certainly different than what F1 has been about in recent years.

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May 17, 2011 3:58:48 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: The future of F1?

It also encourage creative engine design, if Ferrari can make a V12 that works, race that, Porsche with a flat 6? Sure. Toyota and a I4? Welcome to the party.

Or even KERS/Hybrid system, anything to meet the fuel economy target.

This provides real tangible results for car manufacturers to take back to production car designs, like Honda did with the VTEC system.

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May 17, 2011 3:59:32 PM

Adam R: Pilot; Loc: Rochester, MN , United States; Posts: 369, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2004; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: The future of F1?

Whoopsy:

I am actually in favor of limiting the total fuel used during a race.

F1 race typically runs just over 300km, using a modest fuel economy standard, say 20l/100km, gives each team 62 liters of fuel for a race. Anything goes for engine config.

I never thought about this before. This is actually a great idea. It'll make the teams use their available resources to achieve the required fuel economy. Good thinking. Smiley

--

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May 17, 2011 4:36:40 PM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: Adam R

Re: The future of F1?

This was the basis of the old Group C rules. Worked superbly!

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May 17, 2011 4:42:23 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: The future of F1?

Well, to be fair, the old Group C racing was sabotaged by FIA when they changed the rules to favor F1 engines.

Before that it was quite successful.

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May 17, 2011 7:02:12 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Adam R

Re: The future of F1?

Adam R:

Whoopsy:

I am actually in favor of limiting the total fuel used during a race.

F1 race typically runs just over 300km, using a modest fuel economy standard, say 20l/100km, gives each team 62 liters of fuel for a race. Anything goes for engine config.

I never thought about this before. This is actually a great idea. It'll make the teams use their available resources to achieve the required fuel economy. Good thinking.

It has been tried before in F1 when refuelling was not permitted. Wasn't wildly successful in my view because it distorted the drivers' ability to really race over the full distance.

--

fritz

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May 18, 2011 6:07:42 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: fritz

Re: The future of F1?

You are quite correct, but surely the "problem" was that the amount of fuel allowed (or size of fuel tank) was not sufficient in order to guarantee a good race. Just adjust the amount of fuel allowed (or size of fuel tank) and your problem is solved.

The idea would be to allow enough fuel in order to provide a superb race, but not enough to allow for unbridled performance.

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May 18, 2011 6:09:35 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: The future of F1?

Whoopsy:

Well, to be fair, the old Group C racing was sabotaged by FIA when they changed the rules to favor F1 engines.

Before that it was quite successful.

Precisely! It was a victim of it's own success.

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May 18, 2011 7:09:05 AM

BjoernB: Rennteam Master; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 4100, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 19, 2004; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: The future of F1?

I found the whole conversation about a green F1 ridiculous.......the cars produce 2% max of the CO2 compared to the shipping around the world of teams n equipment. F1 should be the pinnacle of what is technically possibe and racedrivers should be heros that can handle 1000 hp despite no TC,ABS, etc having a clutch and a H-shift......that is what I want to see....now I see Playstation boys - although fast - it's probably +90% car that decides if yr "good" or not.....I like the overtaking this season as well as the last 10 laps where tire choice still can shuffle the first 1-5 positions - but other than that it's nowhere near to be a driver's championship....

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May 18, 2011 9:54:30 AM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: The future of F1?

Spyderidol:

You are quite correct, but surely the "problem" was that the amount of fuel allowed (or size of fuel tank) was not sufficient in order to guarantee a good race. Just adjust the amount of fuel allowed (or size of fuel tank) and your problem is solved.

From memory, the amounts of fuel allowed were 250 litres one year and 220 litres the following year - not exactly small amounts if the objective is to propagate green issues.

The idea would be to allow enough fuel in order to provide a superb race, but not enough to allow for unbridled performance.

It's the designers' job to provide for unbridled performance within the technical limitations of the formula, so there is no technical means of eliminating the risk of drivers using so much fuel in the heat of battle early on in a race that they have to pussyfoot later just to get to the finishing line.

Motor racing should be motor racing. I'd hate to see F1 being turned into the Mobil Economy Run. Smiley

--

fritz

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May 18, 2011 9:58:52 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: The future of F1?

+1 Racing is about out and out speed around the circuit - managing fuel consumption (in the latter stages when the race order is pretty much finalised) and eeking out the best fuel economy are fine but should not be the main aim.

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May 18, 2011 10:01:19 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: fritz

Re: The future of F1?

Forget green issues. That is just politico-marketing nonsense.

Don't get me wrong - I too am in favor of very few, well written rules.

The idea is to provide enough fuel so that the race is not turned into an economy run, but not enough so that it places some sort of a check on performance development.

Unfortunately we must recognize (not necessarily like it) that a free-for all would make F! (or any racing series) exorbitantly expensive and would land up being the death of the series.

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May 18, 2011 10:04:23 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: The future of F1?

I recently heard someone state that all the cars competing in F1 for a whole season produce less emissions than 1 747 flight from London to Tokyo.

So I agree - it's all about marketing and public perceptions - the reality is trivial.

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May 19, 2011 9:49:10 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: The future of F1?

Bumper profits in F1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13438913

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May 19, 2011 6:45:09 PM

Gladstone: Expert; Loc: Kansas City, MO , United States; Posts: 1813, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 27, 2008; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: The future of F1?

I don't know of teams publishing hp figures, but I found the following estimates:

1.5L V6 Turbo ; 1200+hp

3.0L V10 ; 900+hp

2.4L V8 ; 740hp

1.6L I4 Turbo ; 750hp

I might miss the sound; but if the power is still there

Can't buy into the idea of Todt proposing this to favor Ferrari; when LdM is completely against it!

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May 19, 2011 7:25:00 PM

REALZEUS: Expert; Loc: UK and Greece , United Kingdom; Posts: 1611, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2008; Reply to: Gladstone

Re: The future of F1?

These figures are somewhat off.

The most powerful turbo 1.5s were up to 1500 HP in qualifying trims and as low as 900 HP in the race.

The V10s had reached 1000 HP (the Ferrari 054 for example).

2008 V8s were at about 800 HP minus.

Todays V8s with their 18k rev limit are at about 750 HP.

The new turbo 1.6s will be circa 600 HP, with an additional 150 HP from KERS for about 30 secs per lap. These figures are estimates given by top F1 engineers.

--
FERRARI RULES!!!

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May 19, 2011 8:55:49 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: REALZEUS

Re: The future of F1?

REALZEUS:

These figures are somewhat off.

The most powerful turbo 1.5s were up to 1500 HP in qualifying trims and as low as 900 HP in the race.

Your source?

--

fritz

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May 19, 2011 9:07:59 PM

REALZEUS: Expert; Loc: UK and Greece , United Kingdom; Posts: 1611, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2008; Reply to: fritz

Re: The future of F1?

I have read it in many interviews given by F1 people. A quick search on the web, wields many such results. :)

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FERRARI RULES!!!

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May 19, 2011 9:11:15 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: REALZEUS

Re: The future of F1?

REALZEUS:

I have read it in many interviews given by F1 people. A quick search on the web, wields many such results. :)

The web? 'Nuff said. Smiley

--

fritz

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May 20, 2011 1:13:24 AM

Heist: Rennteam Master; Loc: Washington, DC , United States; Posts: 4147, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 15, 2007; Reply to: fritz

Re: The future of F1?

fritz:

REALZEUS:

These figures are somewhat off.

The most powerful turbo 1.5s were up to 1500 HP in qualifying trims and as low as 900 HP in the race.

Your source?

BMW M13 race engine.

It's a pretty legendary engine, Fritz. I am surprised you never heard of it. 4-cyl 1.5L turbo race engine that was putting out well over 1200hp on the dyno.

For qualifying and race start, they would crank up the boost to its max - walk away from the field, put a nice chuck of time between them and the rest of the field and then dial it back for reliability and fuel conservation the rest of the race.

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May 20, 2011 9:28:01 AM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Heist

Re: The future of F1?

Heist:

fritz:

REALZEUS:

These figures are somewhat off.

The most powerful turbo 1.5s were up to 1500 HP in qualifying trims and as low as 900 HP in the race.

Your source?

BMW M13 race engine.

It's a pretty legendary engine, Fritz. I am surprised you never heard of it. 4-cyl 1.5L turbo race engine that was putting out well over 1200hp on the dyno.

For qualifying and race start, they would crank up the boost to its max - walk away from the field, put a nice chuck of time between them and the rest of the field and then dial it back for reliability and fuel conservation the rest of the race.

There's a 25% difference between 1500 hp and 1200 hp, which is hardly insignificant! Smiley

By the time BMW got to the stage where it got its iron-age lump to last a whole qualifying lap without going off like a grenade, FIA had introduced pop-off valves to curb power output by limiting the boost pressure to 2.5 bar and later 1.5 bar. They had their effect both in the race and qualifying, so that cramped Paul Rosche's style when it came to trying to develop more power than could be used in qualifying due to reliability problems and in the races due to fuel limits.

--

fritz

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Jun 25, 2011 9:45:55 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: The future of F1?

Whoopsy:

They could always go back to the 1.5L V6 Turbo formula........................

Boy do I feel like a genius now

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/23/f1-to-switch-to-turbocharged-v6-engines-instead-of-proposed-turb/

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