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Mar 24, 2011 9:08:21 AM
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RC
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Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
There is only one problem: Aerodynamics. The regular Carrera wing doesn't really create the same downforce as the original Turbo wing, so this could be a problem at Vmax.
Not even sure how this guy got TÜV for this car, so I suppose this is not a german Turbo S.
Very dangerous.
Btw: I once saw a wing-less Turbo at the factory but I think they were testing the new 991 wing on that car because the rear engine lid looked kind of weird.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Mar 24, 2011 9:39:51 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Reply to:
RC
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
RC:
There is only one problem: Aerodynamics. The regular Carrera wing doesn't really create the same downforce as the original Turbo wing, so this could be a problem at Vmax.
Not even sure how this guy got TÜV for this car, so I suppose this is not a german Turbo S.
Very dangerous.
Btw: I once saw a wing-less Turbo at the factory but I think they were testing the new 991 wing on that car because the rear engine lid looked kind of weird.
I was going to say the same thing, you can't remove a stock rear wing for aesthetics alone, at high speeds the rear axle is going to have less load than the front for which the rear wing was designed in conjunctio with, and may become unbalance just when you need it, and being the rear its even worse than the front.
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Mar 24, 2011 9:47:12 AM
- J.Seven
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Carlos from Spain:
RC:
There is only one problem: Aerodynamics. The regular Carrera wing doesn't really create the same downforce as the original Turbo wing, so this could be a problem at Vmax.
Not even sure how this guy got TÜV for this car, so I suppose this is not a german Turbo S.
Very dangerous.
Btw: I once saw a wing-less Turbo at the factory but I think they were testing the new 991 wing on that car because the rear engine lid looked kind of weird.
I was going to say the same thing, you can't remove a stock rear wing for aesthetics alone, at high speeds the rear axle is going to have less load than the front for which the rear wing was designed in conjunctio with, and may become unbalance just when you need it, and being the rear its even worse than the front.
I do understand the need for the rear wing, but it look so much better without it. Now take out those silly fog lights and this car with Turbo S engine would be the perfect 911. It would be great if the new 991TT comes without the rear wing, but I doubt it.
J.Seven
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Absolutely agree about the missing wing. Personally, I rather like the Turbo wing, it does look good IMO. And it distinguishes the Turbo from the standard Carrera.
I guess at speeds above 170 kph this car will be very difficult to drive. 
But I absolutely like the GT2RS wheels, I think they look gorgeous, especially with macadamia. 
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The secret of life is to admire without desiring.
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Macademia...my dealer had a Carrera in this color in his showroom and the first thing my 10-year old daughter commented regarding this color: "It looks like "Kaki". "Kaki" is the word she started to use as a baby for...well...excrements. 
Kids are always blunt, it sometimes hurts.
Macademia met....not really my favorite color but the GT2 RS wheels are sweet, I would paint them black matte though(incl. a different exterior color of course).
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Oh! 
It looks awesome with the side air intakes and no silly wing.
The aero can be sorted out in a wind tunnel 
Would not think there are any issues up to 200km/h anyway. Close to Vmax maybe, but depends how big the difference in downforce is between the two wings.
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997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.
987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera HLT Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE.
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
bluelines:
Oh!
The aero can be sorted out in a wind tunnel
The wing already improves aerodynamics at speeds over 100 kph and at 200 kph, there is a huge difference between the Turbo wing and the Carrera wing. I'm also not sure what influence the front part of the Turbo S has in conjunction with the Carrera wing, so this could actually make things worse.
People seem to have difficulties to understand that aerodynamics are extremely important on cars.
The former president of the german doctor's professional organization died in a car accident because his Mercedes S class started to loose the connection to the ground because he drove almost 200 kph with a roof box on his way to a ski vacation. As far as I remember, he took his family with him. 
I know the situation is different but aerodynamics shouldn't be taken lightly.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
@RC, I understand the effects and importance of aerodynamics, but as we don't see trees and hedges littered with Carrera's I assume their smaller spoiler already provides some useful downforce?
Regarding the aerodynamic mismatch between the front and rear, that might be possible, but remember the 996 C4S? It was the same story, Turbo front/no spoiler in the back.
I agree that close to Vmax this will be far from ideal, but that's -sadly- hardly relevant for a Belgian car.
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Rossi:
I think no one here at Rennteam treats aerodynamics lightly, but concerning looks only, a Turbo with its wide body looks great without the wing.
Agreed, I'm no fan of the wing either but I think this issue will be solved elegantly in the next gen Turbo. Aerokit of course optional. 
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Porker:Regarding the aerodynamic mismatch between the front and rear, that might be possible, but remember the 996 C4S? It was the same story, Turbo front/no spoiler in the back.
If I remember correctly, the C4S´s rear spoiler was positioned at a steeper angle and it was missing the Turbo´s front lip. I would not be concerned too much about the amount of downforce in general but about the mismatch of front and rear at higher velocities.
Nonetheless, would love to know more about this car. The various turbo, RS and Carrera components make it appear very interesting. I am also stunned by the good match of champagne rims and macadamia metallic.
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Ferdie:
Porker:Regarding the aerodynamic mismatch between the front and rear, that might be possible, but remember the 996 C4S? It was the same story, Turbo front/no spoiler in the back.
If I remember correctly, the C4S´s rear spoiler was positioned at a steeper angle and it was missing the Turbo´s front lip. I would not be concerned too much about the amount of downforce in general but about the mismatch of front and rear at higher velocities.
Nonetheless, would love to know more about this car. The various turbo, RS and Carrera components make it appear very interesting. I am also stunned by the good match of champagne rims and macadamia metallic.
The front lip was indeed shaped differently, less low if I recall correctly.
I've seen more pictures of this car somewhere, I'll post them here if I find them.
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
RC:
There is only one problem: Aerodynamics. The regular Carrera wing doesn't really create the same downforce as the original Turbo wing, so this could be a problem at Vmax.
The Carrera moving apparatus is basically a spoiler. It doesn't create significant downforce but it reduces lift. It diverts the flow of air so that it doesn't go down the sloping rear and under the car and lift it. It also helps cool the engine.
Big functional difference between a Turbo/GT wing and a spoiler a la Carrera.
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"Form follows function"
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Porker:
Ferdie:
Porker:Regarding the aerodynamic mismatch between the front and rear, that might be possible, but remember the 996 C4S? It was the same story, Turbo front/no spoiler in the back.
If I remember correctly, the C4S´s rear spoiler was positioned at a steeper angle and it was missing the Turbo´s front lip. I would not be concerned too much about the amount of downforce in general but about the mismatch of front and rear at higher velocities.
Nonetheless, would love to know more about this car. The various turbo, RS and Carrera components make it appear very interesting. I am also stunned by the good match of champagne rims and macadamia metallic.The front lip was indeed shaped differently, less low if I recall correctly.
I've seen more pictures of this car somewhere, I'll post them here if I find them.
Front lip is raised in the middle compared with the Turbo lip to allow more air underneath.
I had a couple of those 996 C4S before :)
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
RC:
People seem to have difficulties to understand that aerodynamics are extremely important on cars.
Yes, if I am not mistaken the first series of the Audi TT was prone to 180 turns on the highway 
Happened to two owners I know. I think Audi changed the rear apron or added a spoiler to reduce lift in the end. Does this ring a bell to anyone?
I still like the Turbo S without the wing 
If the 996 C4S could be made working without the Turbo spoiler I am sure one could make the 997 Turbo to work without it too (probably by reducing downforce on the front).
There was once a thread on downforce and lift in the Other Sports Cars section which claimed that:
Porsche 997 Carrera S facelift
(A): 2.02 m²
(cd): 0.29
(cd × A): 0.59
at 200km/h
lift front 24kg
lift rear 14kg
Porsche 997 Turbo pre-facelift
(A): 2.04 m²
(cd): 0.29
(cd × A): 0.59
at 200km/h
lift front 9kg
downforce rear 12kg
If those numbers are correct, then there is indeed a big difference.
--
997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.
987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera HLT Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE.
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
bluelines:
Porsche 997 Carrera S facelift
(A): 2.02 m²
(cd): 0.29
(cd × A): 0.59
at 200km/h
lift front 24kg
lift rear 14kgPorsche 997 Turbo pre-facelift
(A): 2.04 m²
(cd): 0.29
(cd × A): 0.59
at 200km/h
lift front 9kg
downforce rear 12kgIf those numbers are correct, then there is indeed a big difference.
Those are the numbers from the SportAuto Supertest. Lift at the front of the Turbo is significantly lower, especially if you take into account the pitching moment generated by the rear wing. The fact that the rear wing produces downforces and not only reduces lift on the rear axle makes a difference as well.
I would love to know more details about the car, whether it uses a Turbo drivetrain underneath and which precautions have been made in terms of aerodynamic stability.
Mar 25, 2011 12:52:16 AM
- Atzporsche
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- Reply to: Ferdie
Mar 25, 2011 9:48:51 AM
- Rossi
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- Reply to: Atzporsche
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
Atzporsche:
Looks great, but why
Should`ve at least added a Sportclassic Duck Tail or perhaps the GT3 RS wing
Duck tail is nice but somehow old-fashioned and IMO the Turbo wing is better looking than the one of the GT3 RS. 
--
The secret of life is to admire without desiring.
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
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Porsche 997.2 Turbo S * BMW X5 M
Re: Special Turbo S without rear wing
I like the Panamera type solution--if possible for aerodynamic safety. A clean looking car for normal driving, and an appropriately appearing and dynamic sports car for high speed driving.
Maybe I am being a bit too sensitive about public perception, but a wing without any real value at most normal and everyday speeds is a bit showy and out of place.
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