Crown

Automobile revu (swiss mag) quated an inofficial 24,9 secs for 0-300kmh acceleration.

If that is true, this car will be amazingly fast for "only" 600hp.  Other cars need almost 700hp or more to achiev this kind of acceleration...

and swiss price about 270 000 sfr witch is about the same as an sls......

a truly bar gain, if this information ar correct

 i wonder if all this talk about lack of soul etc will be taken care of with just selecting the sports exhaust option.. Apparently it has electronic flaps to bypass silencer and goes to 105db compared to the 95-97db of standard exhaust. Also it transmits a bit more vibration in the cabin so i think this might give some more of that "soul" that supposedly it lack vs the ferraris?

OR is it just a balancing act of all the journalists just to not piss off the italian competition..?

The soul part has a lot to do with the engine output characteristics combined with the sound.  

Thus, depending on the sound of the sport exhaust this can be helped a little, but I doubt the whole experience will change much with the same engine intact. 

BiTurbo:

The pricing of the options themselves do not seem extravageant vs. Ferrari, the problem is that except the last four ones I do not see which ones I would not take.

Ziggy:

The pricing of the options themselves do not seem extravageant vs. Ferrari, the problem is that except the last four ones I do not see which ones I would not take.

These carbon fibre panels are heavily priced! How much weight do they save? If not substantial, their cosmetic appeal is dubious and they could be left out IMO.

"Form follows function"

BiTurbo:

I wonder whether the MP4 will be afflicted by reliability issues and if so whether McLaren have the resources to remedy those quickly.

I base this suspicion on the complexity and newness and uniqueness of the platform and components and the inexperience of McLaren in producing road cars. I don't consider the F1 as a road car (and even if it qualifies it was some 20 years ago) and of course the SLRs are 90+% Mercedes. McLaren also have a bad record for reliability in Formula One.

We'll see if the MP4 can survive in the real world.

I expect that Ferrari will appear to be bulletproof and Porsche immortal next to the new McLaren in the first few years at least.

If I were in the market for this type of car I'd wait for the Gallardo replacement before making a decision. More tried and tested products the Lamborghini and with the backing of a giant in VW.

--

"Form follows function"

 The MP4 is a British Porsche. 

The spark/passion they refer to in the Ferrari has much to do with preconceived impressions in what it is like to drive a Ferrari. Basically, it is a self fulling prophecy.

Once driving a Ferrari all prior impressions become true even though there may not be any difference in reality compared to similar sport cars. I guess what I am saying is switch the marque name whereby the MP4 becomes a Ferrari and the 458 is the MP4 the car designated as the Ferrari will FEEL more exciting.

Up to a point that's true Nick but drive an Audi R8 back to back with a Gallardo and then come back and say which of those two has character/soul. They are very closely related under the skin yet are very different from the driver's seat.

Iain, just this-R8 is so much better car then Gallardo IMHO. If you look at character/soul as which car is more difficult to drive and to extract max. speed then Gallardo is a champ. I  will use chair analogy-R8 is an good Aeron chair and Gallardo is an old wooden bar stool. No more, no less.

Character/soul in cars is often an excuse for deficiencies and idiosyncrasies . This myth started with mainstream  Italian cars in the 60s (Alfas and Lancias mainly) that had many practical and engineering drawbacks but the saving grace was always the character, brio, exhaust note etc.

The same line of thought was carried over to Italian supercar brands in the 70s and after when their deficiencies were exposed by better machines

Different buyers just have different priorities and so they choose accordingly.

However, journalists who never own the cars but drive them for a short period of time tend to be impressed by the show and glitz that the more extravagant machines provide.

"Form follows function"

What I liked about Ferrari was it excited me whether I was driving at 25mph or 120mph. With Porsche it excited me when pushing it but at 25mph it was just another car.

The blending of sexiness, sound and elite branding all caused my to feel the excitement in the Ferrari regardless of speed. That said, when pushing the Porsche it excited me more than the Ferrari because of the confidence the car exuded during difficult maneuvering. Porsche engineering and quality trumped Ferrari sound and styling.

Just out of curiosity... what are "follow me home" lights? Sounds like a cheap pickup trick to me :P

I doubt the reliability issue argument against McLaren has much weight when compared to Ferraris.  

Porsche has built bullet proof image over the past years, and modern Ferrari has improved image over the past.  

However, recently a number of burning 458s have highlighted that fragile image again.

nberry:

What I liked about Ferrari was it excited me whether I was driving at 25mph or 120mph. With Porsche it excited me when pushing it but at 25mph it was just another car.

The blending of sexiness, sound and elite branding all caused my to feel the excitement in the Ferrari regardless of speed. That said, when pushing the Porsche it excited me more than the Ferrari because of the confidence the car exuded during difficult maneuvering. Porsche engineering and quality trumped Ferrari sound and styling.

When I owned non GT series Porsches, I used to say the same thing.  But never in my GT3, that thing is alive at 25mph or at 150mph. 

Now for the McLaren.  I am very tempted to order one.  Here in Australia, the base price is reasonable (between GT3RS and 458), but I fear I would want all the CF and other options which makes this car rather expensive.  So the question is, would you buy a MP4-12C that is pretty standard?

WAY:

nberry:

What I liked about Ferrari was it excited me whether I was driving at 25mph or 120mph. With Porsche it excited me when pushing it but at 25mph it was just another car.

The blending of sexiness, sound and elite branding all caused my to feel the excitement in the Ferrari regardless of speed. That said, when pushing the Porsche it excited me more than the Ferrari because of the confidence the car exuded during difficult maneuvering. Porsche engineering and quality trumped Ferrari sound and styling.

When I owned non GT series Porsches, I used to say the same thing.  But never in my GT3, that thing is alive at 25mph or at 150mph. 

Now for the McLaren.  I am very tempted to order one.  Here in Australia, the base price is reasonable (between GT3RS and 458), but I fear I would want all the CF and other options which makes this car rather expensive.  So the question is, would you buy a MP4-12C that is pretty standard?

 On your first statement I can only agree 100% 

Regarding your second point: why not? A good compromise would be to leave all the CF stuff away (which is for looks only anyhow), take one in black with the other useful options. German price incl. VAT would then be like 230k - which sounds still OK?

230k EUR for this performance sounds just right but only if the quality is OK too. I guess we are going to find out 6-12 months after first cars go to customers. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

230k EUR for this performance sounds just right but only if the quality is OK too. I guess we are going to find out 6-12 months after first cars go to customers. 

 Absolutely, would be wise not to take one of the first deliveries  

If cars from established manufacturers have so many problems at the start and beyond, can you imagine the McLaren woes? Everything is new on this car and unique; never tried and tested before.

Unless, buyers want to treat the C12 as a showcase car (like the the 90s F1) which defeats the raison d'etre of this model

"Form follows function"

reginos:

If cars from established manufacturers have so many problems at the start and beyond, can you imagine the McLaren woes? Everything is new on this car and unique; never tried and tested before.

Unless, buyers want to treat the C12 as a showcase car (like the the 90s F1) which defeats the raison d'etre of this model

 Agreed, chances are high that the first year or so will reveal many smaller and larger issues. Patience seems to be the best choice in the case of the McLaren 

MKSGR:

reginos:

If cars from established manufacturers have so many problems at the start and beyond, can you imagine the McLaren woes? Everything is new on this car and unique; never tried and tested before.

Unless, buyers want to treat the C12 as a showcase car (like the the 90s F1) which defeats the raison d'etre of this model

 Agreed, chances are high that the first year or so will reveal many smaller and larger issues. Patience seems to be the best choice in the case of the McLaren 

Couldn't agree more.
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

MKSGR:

WAY:

nberry:

What I liked about Ferrari was it excited me whether I was driving at 25mph or 120mph. With Porsche it excited me when pushing it but at 25mph it was just another car.

The blending of sexiness, sound and elite branding all caused my to feel the excitement in the Ferrari regardless of speed. That said, when pushing the Porsche it excited me more than the Ferrari because of the confidence the car exuded during difficult maneuvering. Porsche engineering and quality trumped Ferrari sound and styling.

When I owned non GT series Porsches, I used to say the same thing.  But never in my GT3, that thing is alive at 25mph or at 150mph. 

Now for the McLaren.  I am very tempted to order one.  Here in Australia, the base price is reasonable (between GT3RS and 458), but I fear I would want all the CF and other options which makes this car rather expensive.  So the question is, would you buy a MP4-12C that is pretty standard?

 On your first statement I can only agree 100% 

Regarding your second point: why not? A good compromise would be to leave all the CF stuff away (which is for looks only anyhow), take one in black with the other useful options. German price incl. VAT would then be like 230k - which sounds still OK?

If I would (will?) order one, I would order it as follows:

The standard car weighs 1.336 kg dry according to McLaren. The best, means lightest version will weigh 1.301 kg, so you can shave off 35 kg with the right extras (some of which will come back when ordering luxury options like IRIS upgrade for example). From this 35 kg the racing seats account for 18 kg and the super lightweight wheels for another 10 kg. The remaining 8 kg can be achieved by ordering the sport exhaust, which should be 20% lighter than the standard item and also the CF rear diffuser may contribute, though I expect its part to be negligible.

So I would order super lightweight wheels as I find them the most attractive wheel option anyway and the racing seats. That will do most of the weight saving. I would not order CF front or rear diffusor, as these parts are quite prone to stone chipping. CF in the interior depends on the chosen colour of the leather, to make a final choice you first have to see the standard aluminium interior in real life. CF mirrors are way too expensive, CF in the engine bay most useless. Maybe I would go with CF vanes, since with them the a bit silly looking side air intakes look a bit better. CF door sills could look good, but only if you go with CF interior, CF wheel arches are unneccessary IMO. Carbon brakes have to be considered, but I'm not sure about them yet. IRIS upgrade is heftily overpriced, but a must.

If the quality of the MP4-12C will be reliable, what we will now after the first year I guess and if the dealer network will be big enough, I could imagine the MP4-12C to be a successor to my Turbo S for example.

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

From experience I would avoid most if not all the CF. Also, unless I am tracking the car I would not pay extra for options that would lighten the car.

I would equip the car for street use and much of that is what I would enjoy while driving the car.

Rossi:

MKSGR:

WAY:

nberry:

What I liked about Ferrari was it excited me whether I was driving at 25mph or 120mph. With Porsche it excited me when pushing it but at 25mph it was just another car.

The blending of sexiness, sound and elite branding all caused my to feel the excitement in the Ferrari regardless of speed. That said, when pushing the Porsche it excited me more than the Ferrari because of the confidence the car exuded during difficult maneuvering. Porsche engineering and quality trumped Ferrari sound and styling.

When I owned non GT series Porsches, I used to say the same thing.  But never in my GT3, that thing is alive at 25mph or at 150mph. 

Now for the McLaren.  I am very tempted to order one.  Here in Australia, the base price is reasonable (between GT3RS and 458), but I fear I would want all the CF and other options which makes this car rather expensive.  So the question is, would you buy a MP4-12C that is pretty standard?

 On your first statement I can only agree 100% 

Regarding your second point: why not? A good compromise would be to leave all the CF stuff away (which is for looks only anyhow), take one in black with the other useful options. German price incl. VAT would then be like 230k - which sounds still OK?

If I would (will?) order one, I would order it as follows:

The standard car weighs 1.336 kg dry according to McLaren. The best, means lightest version will weigh 1.301 kg, so you can shave off 35 kg with the right extras (some of which will come back when ordering luxury options like IRIS upgrade for example). From this 35 kg the racing seats account for 18 kg and the super lightweight wheels for another 10 kg. The remaining 8 kg can be achieved by ordering the sport exhaust, which should be 20% lighter than the standard item and also the CF rear diffuser may contribute, though I expect its part to be negligible.

So I would order super lightweight wheels as I find them the most attractive wheel option anyway and the racing seats. That will do most of the weight saving. I would not order CF front or rear diffusor, as these parts are quite prone to stone chipping. CF in the interior depends on the chosen colour of the leather, to make a final choice you first have to see the standard aluminium interior in real life. CF mirrors are way too expensive, CF in the engine bay most useless. Maybe I would go with CF vanes, since with them the a bit silly looking side air intakes look a bit better. CF door sills could look good, but only if you go with CF interior, CF wheel arches are unneccessary IMO. Carbon brakes have to be considered, but I'm not sure about them yet. IRIS upgrade is heftily overpriced, but a must.

If the quality of the MP4-12C will be reliable, what we will now after the first year I guess and if the dealer network will be big enough, I could imagine the MP4-12C to be a successor to my Turbo S for example.

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

 Similar thoughts here: super-lightweight wheels, lightweight seats. I would also pick CCB (unsprung weight) and... IRIS (you also need to have fun while driving on public roads ) 

P.S.: The sport exhaust might be a bit loud/obtrusive...

nberry:

... Porsche engineering and quality trumped Ferrari sound and styling ...

 
For some time now, I have been rubbing my eyes thinking 'Am I really reading this from Nick?' ... well this time, our dear Starbucks sipping friend has gone yet further on his 'Road to Damascus' ... to the point where he is now at the gate of the city of Damascus itself !!! 

Porsche engineering and quality trumped Ferrari sound and styling 

We've been saying this for ages - I now read those words from Nick and I still can't believe it.

Nick, did you eat the old Nick? Where is he? We need to file a missing person's report! 
 

RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection