Crown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXHZLMjmBRQ

10:50 So the suspension is not identical to the GT3RS? "No! No!" "We have eliminated most of the elastic kinematic joints"

11:20 Is it rose jointed? "Ya! Ya!"

11:48 "we could cut down this (reaction) time by changing to rose joints"

12:02 Preuninger "we have to get rid of all the rubber"

A careful review of PET, the Porsche internal part cataloging system shows only two differences (T-W-O) between GT3RS and GT2RS in ENTIRE front and rear suspension. The rear Track Rod (also known as a Toe-Control arm) and the rear wishbone (known as Lower Control Arm).

All other, "elastic kinematic" filled suspension parts are identical and shared between the two cars.

Watch the video, listen to the Porsche representatives own words, and tell me if it was at best a severe mis-representation or at worst a bald-faced lie?

Tell me again the price of the car? It certainly is not out of line to ask why the car is not outfitted as represented?  And why have the magazine reviewers not looked into this? Too busy with lurid tail-out slides to do any factual investigation?

Enthusiasts pay very good money to outfit cars with aftermarket suspension pieces. Solid pieces without "elastic kinematic" pieces in them. Porsche represented this car as already having those pieces but it seems to not be the truth? What is the explanation?

and the engine is also IDENTICAL to the GT2 including the VTGs that have same part number in the PET. No new intake (as described in some press releases), no new special rods or pistons i believe either. Only difference is the ICs so far..

Fantastic marketing job by porsche. The team must have gotten very good "bonus" for selling 500 cars for this kind of premium over the GT2 with such minimum real differences.

At least it has the led rear lights..

What are the differences between GT3RS and regular GT3/Carrera ? Does the GT3RS not come with solid ushings ?

Any links to PET online ?

2009 997 GT2

Don't mix up the Carrera with the GT3/GT3RS. They really don't have much in common(chassis, drivetrain, engine, etc.).

Last time I checked on it, PET could be accessed online but only through a VPN connection to Porsche directly. No chance whatsoever for non-authorized people. Maybe this has changed but I doubt it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

TB993tt:

What are the differences between GT3RS and regular GT3/Carrera ? Does the GT3RS not come with solid ushings ?

Any links to PET online ?

I own a 2010 GT3RS, it does not contain solid bushings. That is why I spent many thousands of dollars with Tarett Engineering and installation of solid bushings and rod ends: 4 Monoballs at lower control arms F/R, solid caster pucks w/adjustability F/R, solid rear toe control arms w/Bumpsteer adj, solid wishbones/dogbones, upper strut mounts, tie-rod ends front.

The OE GT3RS suspension adds some adjustability over a GT3, but it is FULL of elastomerics. Based upon Porsche claims I fully expected to find a solid suspension under my GT2RS, and PET says with two exceptions it is not there? 

How about this, did the test mules have solid, rose-jointed suspensions? Did the 7:18 ring time car have a solid suspension? This is now all called into question isn't it?

RC

Last time I checked on it, PET could be accessed online but only through a VPN connection to Porsche directly. No chance whatsoever for non-authorized people. Maybe this has changed but I doubt it.

It has changed and quite some time ago. ANYBODY can pay the subscription and access fully updated PET in realtime directly from Porsche.

https://www.porsche-parts24.com

Furthemore, there are a number of parts websites providing realtime parts information.

I think perhaps this is part of the problem, not enough enthusiasts willing invest the effort to look past the marketing machine and call Porsche out when things are not as they seem? The tone of your post gives me the impression you wish to shoot the messenger instead of confirming my research? I certainly hope that is not the case? You do want to be clear on the facts of the matter, yes?

My friend, as a current multi-Porsche owner, and GT2RS buyer, and a man that works on my own cars, I am as "authorized" as I need to be to access accurate parts information. I have every right to clarify why marketing claims are not meeting parts catalog facts don't you think?

So the question stands, why the discrepancy from the words in the video to the listings in PET?

GT:

and the engine is also IDENTICAL to the GT2 including the VTGs that have same part number in the PET. No new intake (as described in some press releases), no new special rods or pistons i believe either. Only difference is the ICs so far..

Fantastic marketing job by porsche. The team must have gotten very good "bonus" for selling 500 cars for this kind of premium over the GT2 with such minimum real differences.

At least it has the led rear lights..

 

Yes, sadly, you are spot on. Only difference seems to be the Chargecoolers (Intercoolers). GT2RS also has the same (identical part # as GT3) age-old crappy GKN Limited Slip Differential that GT3 owners the world over change out after delivery because it doesn't perform. But that was not claimed to be updated so I am not picking on it.

My perception and source of aggravation is Porsche has, since subsequent to the GT3RS and Boxster Spyder, focused on part-bin engineering. "Racing not Posing" I think is part of the marketing? If they invested just a tiny piece of the marketing budget into refining the engineering we would all be very happy.

But when the discrepancy of hype vs fact becomes this egregious they must be called out to account.

If these discrepancies between the marketing "promises"/value proposition and the delivered product turn out to be real, and not some inaccuracies in the PET, does this not become the basis for a class action lawsuit?

Both sources of information, Andreas Preuninger's comments and the PET, are very clear and un-ambiguous, yet conflicting.

Can't wait to see the outcome but, for the benefit of all eventual owners, I sincerely hope that the PET is in need of being revised.

In aviation, publications tend to have a hard time keeping up with what comes off of the production line. Let's hope this is also the case here.

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Slow In, Fast Out

FFaust:

If these discrepancies between the marketing "promises"/value proposition and the delivered product turn out to be real, and not some inaccuracies in the PET, does this not become the basis for a class action lawsuit?

Both sources of information, Andreas Preuninger's comments and the PET, are very clear and un-ambiguous, yet conflicting.

Can't wait to see the outcome but, for the benefit of all eventual owners, I sincerely hope that the PET is in need of being revised.

In aviation, publications tends to have a hard time keeping up with what comes off of the production line. Let's hope this is also the case here.

I share your observation and thoughts 100% my friend 

You have summed it with elegance.

RC:

Don't mix up the Carrera with the GT3/GT3RS. They really don't have much in common(chassis, drivetrain, engine, etc.).

RC, you are slurping the Porsche marketing Koolaid

The GT3 has the exact same suspension as the carrera apart from shocks and adustable wisbone at the front

The RS stuff is actually on the GT3 PET I just noticed and the only difference between this and the GT3 (in terms of links - which is what we are talking about) is the rear wishbones have a different part number as do the fronts, all the other links/arms are same as Carrera/GT3

I was thinking exact same thing as OP that Porsche may have kitted out the silver demo GT2RS with solid bushings so it could set the ring on fire (after all they were virtually pointing at the sliver car when making the comments !)

Preuninger also comments that the solid bushings are needed to cope with the power to make the car easier to handle at the limit which is easily breached (paraphrasing) - In fact it was these very comments which have made me invest in full link package and B16s to help cope with my new upgraded engine.......

This is not good  

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2009 997 GT2

 Dont be too worried Toby. You ll love it. But things will become a bit stiffer overall, especially on potholes and you'll have to play a bit with swaybars and geometry to keep the rear on the road with the new power/torque.

I did all that over a year ago so i know what am talking about.

Question stands though; how can a german company like Porsche come out and so aggressively market a new product using non-accurate information that allowed them to charge such a huge premium?

savvy:

Porsche represented this car as already having those pieces but it seems to not be the truth? What is the explanation?

I'm sure that anyone who is in a position to order such a specialized model could put this question directly to the factory, discuss the issue and get an answer. He could also be shown the parts, if unconvinced with any verbal explanation.

What's the point of this speculative discussion

"Form follows function"

 The point is that since P released the PET of the GT2RS (which btw they did later than usual and progressively in parts) people started realising that all of the info in the marketing material was not accurate..

reginos:

savvy:

Porsche represented this car as already having those pieces but it seems to not be the truth? What is the explanation?

I'm sure that anyone who is in a position to order such a specialized model could put this question directly to the factory, discuss the issue and get an answer. He could also be shown the parts, if unconvinced with any verbal explanation.

What's the point of this speculative discussion?

That will happen on Monday. I thought PET might be wrong and one of the various Porsche internally connected posters here would put up a quick clear explanation.

By your comment "He could also be shown the parts, if unconvinced with any verbal explanation." you sound as though you already have an opinion and a position on this? Do you have reason to believe the car is rose-jointed? If so, kindly share and inform the discussion? I have not put forward speculation I have put forward facts that can be confirmed by anyone seeking straight answers?

The attached picture of the marketing book also indicates "metal support bearings"

.

TB993tt:

the only difference between this and the GT3 (in terms of links - which is what we are talking about) is the rear wishbones have a different part number as do the fronts, all the other links/arms are same as Carrera/GT3

I do not have any additional insight into the subject, if I understood correctly the wishbones at front and rear are different on the RS than on any other car. Aren´t those rose-joints incorporated in the wishbones, hence part of this differing accessory?

Ferdie:

TB993tt:

the only difference between this and the GT3 (in terms of links - which is what we are talking about) is the rear wishbones have a different part number as do the fronts, all the other links/arms are same as Carrera/GT3

I do not have any additional insight into the subject, if I understood correctly the wishbones at front and rear are different on the RS than on any other car. Aren´t those rose-joints incorporated in the wishbones, hence part of this differing accessory?

GT3RS front and rear Lower Control Arms are different: they are split at inner end so as to allow for additional camber adjustment (via shims). The inner ends are NOT monoball (solid). Please understand the difference between adjustability vs rose-joints (spherical ends/monoballs)

Ferdie:

TB993tt:

the only difference between this and the GT3 (in terms of links - which is what we are talking about) is the rear wishbones have a different part number as do the fronts, all the other links/arms are same as Carrera/GT3

I do not have any additional insight into the subject, if I understood correctly the wishbones at front and rear are different on the RS than on any other car. Aren´t those rose-joints incorporated in the wishbones, hence part of this differing accessory?

Rose joints are ball joints. The English name is derived from a brand name, Rose.
The German equivalent is Unibal, also derived from a brand name.
These two different brand names have now come to be used as generic terms for ball joints in the English- and German-speaking regions respectively.

Unlike the "standard" Carrera versions, the GT models have an Unibal ball joint as a top pivot bearing for the front McPherson strut, so could be loosely described as being "rose-jointed".

The rear control arms do not need any provision for steering, so do not provide for rotation of the wheel carrier through the vertical axis. The bushes at each end of the control arms are therefore not ball joints but cylindrical bushes pivoting on a pin. Whilst the purely street-versions have "elastic" rubber-interleaved bushes to give a greater degree of compliance and comfort, the GT models have more rigid metal bushes to give more precise location at the expense of more noise and harshness.

I suspect that the "Ya, ya" in response to the question relating to "rose-jointing" was just down to a misunderstanding of the narrow meaning of that term. That is, it may not have been recognised that a rose joint is specifically a ball joint like an Unibal bearing, and not just any bearing or bush not incorporating a more compliant rubber element. 

fritz

Following this with interest, curious what the outcome will be..

I'm guessing some GT2 RS' have already been dismantled by tuners, can't they elaborate on whether it has uniball suspension or not?

GT:

 

Fantastic marketing job by porsche. The team must have gotten very good "bonus" for selling 500 cars for this kind of premium over the GT2 with such minimum real differences.

 

 I agree - the RS is just a facelift of the GT2 Mk1 - however, that is still enough as the GT2 Mk1 is already one of the best (if not the best) high-perrformance cars. The RS is slightly refined and thus even a bit better 

Anyhow, those who bought the GT2 RS for its "exclusivity" or the "out-of-the world" performance will be frustrated. The RS has a similar "exclusivity" as the GT2 Mk1 (similar annual production numbers) and feels very similar to the Mk1 when driven...

fritz:

Ferdie:

TB993tt:

the only difference between this and the GT3 (in terms of links - which is what we are talking about) is the rear wishbones have a different part number as do the fronts, all the other links/arms are same as Carrera/GT3

I do not have any additional insight into the subject, if I understood correctly the wishbones at front and rear are different on the RS than on any other car. Aren´t those rose-joints incorporated in the wishbones, hence part of this differing accessory?

Rose joints are ball joints. The English name is derived from a brand name, Rose.
The German equivalent is Unibal, also derived from a brand name.
These two different brand names have now come to be used as generic terms for ball joints in the English- and German-speaking regions respectively.

Unlike the "standard" Carrera versions, the GT models have an Unibal ball joint as a top pivot bearing for the front McPherson strut, so could be loosely described as being "rose-jointed".

The rear control arms do not need any provision for steering, so do not provide for rotation of the wheel carrier through the vertical axis. The bushes at each end of the control arms are therefore not ball joints but cylindrical bushes pivoting on a pin. Whilst the purely street-versions have "elastic" rubber-interleaved bushes to give a greater degree of compliance and comfort, the GT models have more rigid metal bushes to give more precise location at the expense of more noise and harshness.

I suspect that the "Ya, ya" in response to the question relating to "rose-jointing" was just down to a misunderstanding of the narrow meaning of that term. That is, it may not have been recognised that a rose joint is specifically a ball joint like an Unibal bearing, and not just any bearing or bush not incorporating a more compliant rubber element. 

 That is one of those posts which makes very clear to me: I should have studied engineering to understand all this  

MKSGR:

fritz:

Rose joints are ball joints. The English name is derived from a brand name, Rose.
The German equivalent is Unibal, also derived from a brand name.
These two different brand names have now come to be used as generic terms for ball joints in the English- and German-speaking regions respectively.

Unlike the "standard" Carrera versions, the GT models have an Unibal ball joint as a top pivot bearing for the front McPherson strut, so could be loosely described as being "rose-jointed".

The rear control arms do not need any provision for steering, so do not provide for rotation of the wheel carrier through the vertical axis. The bushes at each end of the control arms are therefore not ball joints but cylindrical bushes pivoting on a pin. Whilst the purely street-versions have "elastic" rubber-interleaved bushes to give a greater degree of compliance and comfort, the GT models have more rigid metal bushes to give more precise location at the expense of more noise and harshness.

 

 That is one of those posts which makes very clear to me: I should have studied engineering to understand all this  

Haha No worries, perfectly understandable.

The bottom line for any "layperson" is this: the video clearly shows Porsche marketing people emphatically and unequivocally stating that  the GT2RS suspension is totally different from GT3RS and that all the rubber is taken out. The marketing book states the same.

As evidenced by Porsche own parts catalog, that is not true (a lie). There are buyers who are familiar with suspension and driving dynamics that consider a solid suspension, one that the rubber is removed, to be key to making a buying decision.

I don't ever like to be lied to and especially not when it is involving the expenditure of US$250,000+.

savvy,

Thanks for your diligence and pressure to hold Porsche accountable for their promises and vehicle value!

I don't understand why they would pull shenanigans like this.  How much more expensive would it be to put these parts in on at the assembly line?

Hang tough, sir!

MKSGR:

 

 I agree - the RS is just a facelift of the GT2 Mk1 - however, that is still enough as the GT2 Mk1 is already one of the best (if not the best) high-perrformance cars. The RS is slightly refined and thus even a bit better 

Anyhow, those who bought the GT2 RS for its "exclusivity" or the "out-of-the world" performance will be frustrated. The RS has a similar "exclusivity" as the GT2 Mk1 (similar annual production numbers) and feels very similar to the Mk1 when driven...

Just to put things in perspective here and to help understand if indeed the RS might "simply" be an evolution of the Mk1, could you please say what the Euro price was on the Mk1 and what it is on the RS

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Slow In, Fast Out

savvy:

MKSGR:

fritz:

Rose joints are ball joints. The English name is derived from a brand name, Rose.
The German equivalent is Unibal, also derived from a brand name.
These two different brand names have now come to be used as generic terms for ball joints in the English- and German-speaking regions respectively.

Unlike the "standard" Carrera versions, the GT models have an Unibal ball joint as a top pivot bearing for the front McPherson strut, so could be loosely described as being "rose-jointed".

The rear control arms do not need any provision for steering, so do not provide for rotation of the wheel carrier through the vertical axis. The bushes at each end of the control arms are therefore not ball joints but cylindrical bushes pivoting on a pin. Whilst the purely street-versions have "elastic" rubber-interleaved bushes to give a greater degree of compliance and comfort, the GT models have more rigid metal bushes to give more precise location at the expense of more noise and harshness.

 

 That is one of those posts which makes very clear to me: I should have studied engineering to understand all this  

 

Haha No worries, perfectly understandable.

The bottom line for any "layperson" is this: the video clearly shows Porsche marketing people emphatically and unequivocally stating that  the GT2RS suspension is totally different from GT3RS and that all the rubber is taken out. The marketing book states the same.

As evidenced by Porsche own parts catalog, that is not true (a lie). There are buyers who are familiar with suspension and driving dynamics that consider a solid suspension, one that the rubber is removed, to be key to making a buying decision.

 

Ahaaa - now I understand 

FFaust:

MKSGR:

 

 I agree - the RS is just a facelift of the GT2 Mk1 - however, that is still enough as the GT2 Mk1 is already one of the best (if not the best) high-perrformance cars. The RS is slightly refined and thus even a bit better 

Anyhow, those who bought the GT2 RS for its "exclusivity" or the "out-of-the world" performance will be frustrated. The RS has a similar "exclusivity" as the GT2 Mk1 (similar annual production numbers) and feels very similar to the Mk1 when driven...

Just to put things in perspective here and to help understand if indeed the RS might "simply" be an evolution of the Mk1, could you please say what the Euro price was on the Mk1 and what it is on the RS

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Slow In, Fast Out

 I did not calculate it probably, but I would estimate that the difference is about Euro 40k net of VAT 

German price for

- GT2  €189,500

- GT2 RS €237,600

BiTurbo:

German price for

- GT2  €189,500

- GT2 RS €237,600

So it is probably safe to assume that for an increase of 50,000EUR in price, Porsche wants to position the RS as more than "simply" an evolution of the 997 GT2

Slow In, Fast Out

 Well, according to the people at Manthey Racing, the difference was big.. When I got my car to Germany, first thing I did was to change the brake pads to Endless. Then it was 5-6 people working for Manthey standing under the car, looking. For those of you that know the garage there, you know Martin. His exact words when he looked at this was: there is absolutely nothing we can do with this car to make it better as it looks right now. This is just like a race car..

So, I do not know if this is correct or not, but again according to Martin, it was not the same as on the GT3RS. And, he have seen a few of them..

Thanks for chiming in Alex.

Now, if we can just get someone to take pics; just curious and it's always very sexy.

Slow In, Fast Out

 This is all I got now.. Anyone know where this is?

Thanks, very nice, but I was thinking of pictures of the underside

With all that snow, it's got to be in Europe somewhere

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Slow In, Fast Out