Sep 20, 2010 12:59:21 PM
- reginos
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- Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus
- Posts: 12130, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 20, 2005
- Reply to: fulvio Russo
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Board: Porsche - Panamera
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
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Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
reginos:
You can't lie with figures, unfortunately.
22.518 cars produced, that's a fact. Even if you discount for demo-cars, stocks etc it's a lot of new Porsches on the roads and most important conquest sales from BMW and Mercedes.
Now whether a number of these cars has been sold with a higher than normal discount, it's something that could be applicable to some markets. Nevertheless the rate of Gross Profit on Porsche cars is amongst the highest in the industry so there could be room for maneuver in the current financial climate.
The 20.000 units target has been successfully met in Year 1. Let's see what happens in Year 2.
--"Form follows function"
Porsche couldn't do anything else than produce at least 20000 Panamera per year. The logic behind this is very simple...contracts and money. I could go deeper into it but... 
So your logic is: if millions of flies are eating sh.t, they can't be wrong, right ? 
Regarding the "competition", Mercedes S class, BMW 7 series, Audi A8, etc.: you always seem to forget, maybe because you are not affected or not part of this customer group, that these cars need to be big, luxurious but also subtle. I know many business men in my region, due to my job and none of them would ever consider a Panamera. I tried, they actually like the Panamera but it looks too big, too sporty, too expensive, too...you get my point. Of course the Panamera stands out of the crowd, no doubt about it. It is also not a bad car at all, on the contrary. I just don't think that the Panamera is a success right now but speaking of success, Porsche actually never made money with cars in the past. 
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
RC, your supporting argument about insects and digestive waste product is so inappropriate for a person of your age and perceived prestige 
So what you say is that Porsche produce this model in these numbers just to stack it up in garages and dealerships and pretend that they sell. Difficult to believe.
The Panamera is an alternative to several Mercedes and BMW models including the more aggressive S class models (AMG or even AMG-look) and the 7 series M Technik package.
I know of at least 10 Russians here who bought Panamera migrating from M-B/BMW ownership. Germany could be different, with many limousine cars company-owned for Directors and chauffeur-driven, obviously the Panamera is not appropriate. This car is not for the corporate buyer but for the self-employed professional and for the person of independent means.
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"Form follows function"
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
Porsche needed to produce at least 20000 cars in the first year for various reasons.
This will be different in the second year of production (which I'm very curious of).
The future of the Panamera also depends on how Piech views the overall future of Porsche and their products. Piech started to push a couple of things at Porsche and I'm very curious about the outcome.
Fact is: in Germany, the Panamera never made it to the "typical" business car, which is very important for a success over here due to the price tag of the Panamera. Since Germany is the second largest single country market for Porsche, they can't ignore this.
The rumor discussed here isn't without a base. Piech and VW want to bring Porsche back to the roots, while putting new models on the market for a wider customer range.
Not sure how they are going to manage this but to be honest, I'm happy I don't have to make any decisions at Porsche. Could be very very difficult right now.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
reginos:
I know of at least 10 Russians here who bought Panamera migrating from M-B/BMW ownership. Germany could be different, with many limousine cars company-owned for Directors and chauffeur-driven, obviously the Panamera is not appropriate. This car is not for the corporate buyer but for the self-employed professional and for the person of independent means.
The fact that Porsche had to offer very attractive financial options on the Panamera in its first model year speaks volumes.
Apart from seeing cars occasionally, I do know of two Panamera owners who bought the entry-level model and can be seen as rather individual characters. They definitely do not reflect the typical domestic businessman. I predict that the Panamera´s acceptance will improve over time, even if only because people get accustomed to the shape.
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
RC:
The rumor discussed here isn't without a base. Piech and VW want to bring Porsche back to the roots, while putting new models on the market for a wider customer range.
Not sure how they are going to manage this but to be honest, I'm happy I don't have to make any decisions at Porsche. Could be very very difficult right now.
Apparently very conflicting objectives for VW.
IMO what stands is the desire of VW to produce 200.000 Porsche cars (a number for financial viability according to their accountants) which cannot be achieved with only "pure" and sport models. I expect the Panamera to continue to be developed in order to evolve into a top car and (hopefully) a more attractive shape. I also expect another 2 variants in the years to come. Coupe and Cabrio and perhaps an Avant type of body.
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"Form follows function"
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
Guess I started all of this discussion, so I will add to the mix.
The Panamera is definitely a niche car, and will never sell in great numbers. But-aside from the debatable looks--it is has deservedly received rave reviews . Will it steal some BMW 7 series owners? I have no idea, but that's more possible in the U.S. than Germany where BMW has a fine reputation, and comformity is more a norm.
There are several Panameras in Washington, DC, but my dealer's lot has several that have not moved in several months. While fading initial enthusiasm may be the reason, I believe the real culprit is the shaky economy. New luxury cars (BMWs, Porsches, Mercedes, etc.) just are not selling well. The market is surviving on pre-owned cars and aggressive discounts. The affluent buyer remains cautious and worried.
So I guess to answer my own question about Panamera surviving under VW, I would say it will--but only if the worldwide economy improves and folks feel like indulging more in luxury cars...
Sep 20, 2010 7:49:47 PM
- Atzporsche
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- Loc: Vancouver , Canada
- Posts: 9118, Gallery
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- Reply to: Wonderbar
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
My city with is very small (300,000) and mostly old people, we have a tiny corner P dealer within the VW grounds. They have like 4 new cars for sale at any point, i was really happy when they had a white Boxster Spyder.....
BUT, in my city there's already three Panamera, a 4S, and two turbo's. That's the most P cars i see nowadays. It may also because they drive 24/7 but seems to be its selling pretty well.
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indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine.. I happen to like both :)
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
ALDO:
@ALDO - are those PF number plates or worker cars you see every week?
NO "S-GO, ..." or "PF-PZ" plates - normal plates
of course..... but even normal plates might be company cars of Porsche. And lets be honest, there are plenty of them in the LB and Weisach area!
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
Guys - we are talking about 20.000 cars in the first year of launch. Come on... 20.000 for the world market, is this really that much? 
Further on, with the new V6 even the price dropped into a more acceptable area. And so far all the tests I read have been highly appreciated that machine. Next we will see is the Diesel which will boost the European Sale again. So, this car will have his 20.000 niche and its success in it!
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
There is no doubt about the Panamera's qualities as a sporty limousine. I would prefer the Panamera Turbo with Powerkit over any current competition model out there on the market.
That's not the point, Porsche has built a true masterpiece here.
Maybe Porsche is clever enough to do the same visual downsizing they did with the Cayenne (not that I like the current Cayenne design too much, the rear looks a little bit out of place and the front is too "clean" and roundly shaped). They can then add some sort of design/sport kits to the mix to make the Panamera look meaner, bigger, whatever for certain markets. A visual downsizing could definitely benefit the Panamera in lots of markets.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
Agree with RC on Panamera, new Cayenne design, and future design options for Panamera. One other thing I hope is improved on the Panamera--rear vision from the driver's position. I really feel a bit too encased in a Panamera, and view out of rear and side windows seems quite restricted. Any comments on this from current Panamera owners?
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
Wonderbar:Agree with RC on Panamera, new Cayenne design, and future design options for Panamera. One other thing I hope is improved on the Panamera--rear vision from the driver's position. I really feel a bit too encased in a Panamera, and view out of rear and side windows seems quite restricted. Any comments on this from current Panamera owners?
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Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
Rear view cameras are great but the one I have on the X5 M is "in the open", meaning that the lens gets dirty all the time (and very likely scratched too sooner or later). Not really a good solution. I don't remember how the Panamera lens works but I think the lens is concealed as far as I remember.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
coming from CTT, the side mirrors of panamera is very small.
coming from 911, the rear view mirror reflects images that appear very far away, and visual field also small. However you can get used to them easily.
haven't cleaned the panamera yet so don't know where the rear view camera is.
as for sales, I predict that panamera will be very successful, especially in Asian places like China or Hong Kong. They very much prefer high performance sedans over sport cars or SUVs there.
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Tim
2010 997.2 GT3RS; 2008 Cayenne Turbo; 2006 911 Club Coupe #13; 2011 Panamera 4
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
RC:
Rear view cameras are great but the one I have on the X5 M is "in the open", meaning that the lens gets dirty all the time (and very likely scratched too sooner or later). Not really a good solution. I don't remember how the Panamera lens works but I think the lens is concealed as far as I remember.
The BMW X rear camera is a joke, the Panamera is much better. I would say 5 years technology inbetween. BMW slow, bad image in dark nearly useless. Porsche fast, good image quality and usable at night.
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Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
ALDO:
BMW slow, bad image in dark nearly useless. Porsche fast, good image quality and usable at night.
My X5 M camera provides a very good image and even in dark, I can clearly see everything. Maybe they changed it at some point ? 
Only thing I don't like about it is the fact that it gets dirty all the time, even if it doesn't rain, etc.. A couple of days on the road and I need to clean the camera. Very annoying.
I'm also a little bit afraid of somebody damaging the camera by purpose. The lens is extremely exposed, I don't get it. 
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
Re: Recurring Panamera Rumor
on my X6 the camera is so slow - when changing to R sometime I need to wait 2-3 seconds 
, bad image - but: maybe I should clean the lense 
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