Crown

The Ring Test Results of M3 GTS will be revealed in the September issue of Sport Auto.

Kreso,

Do you have any info?

Let the speculations begin

I'm guessing 7:35 - 7:38 lap time for the GTS which is on par with 430 Scuderia and 458 İtalia.

Anything slower than this time is a disappointment when you consider 7:50 lap time of M3 CSL back in 2003. CSL was 100 hp down (well also 100 kg lighter) and the Ring was slower.

Here is the teaser video:

www.sportauto-online.de/video-978802.html

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

pride355:

The Ring Test Results of M3 GTS will be revealed in the September issue of Sport Auto.

Kreso,

Do you have any info?

Let the speculations begin

I'm guessing 7:35 - 7:38 lap time for the GTS which is on par with 430 Scuderia and 458 İtalia.

Anything slower than this time is a disappointment when you consider 7:50 lap time of M3 CSL back in 2003. CSL was 100 hp down (well also 100 kg lighter) and the Ring was slower.

Here is the teaser video:

www.sportauto-online.de/video-978802.html

 

 Are you serious  If you ask me: anything below 7.50 would be quite a good result for this car 

MKSGR:

pride355:

The Ring Test Results of M3 GTS will be revealed in the September issue of Sport Auto.

Kreso,

Do you have any info?

Let the speculations begin

I'm guessing 7:35 - 7:38 lap time for the GTS which is on par with 430 Scuderia and 458 İtalia.

Anything slower than this time is a disappointment when you consider 7:50 lap time of M3 CSL back in 2003. CSL was 100 hp down (well also 100 kg lighter) and the Ring was slower.

Here is the teaser video:

www.sportauto-online.de/video-978802.html

 

 Are you serious  If you ask me: anything below 7.50 would be quite a good result for this car 

Markus,

Regular M3 with the comp. pack. is rumoured to lap 8:00 min. which is 5 sec. faster than Sport Auto M3 Super Test time. That Super Test car was manual, no comp. pack. and was on + Cup tires.

In Sport Auto Latest test of M3 comp. pack. (that was against RS5), M3 lapped 0,1 sec faster than their previous M3 test which was on + Cup tires, @Hockemhein klein course.

This is only my expactation; not my claim. If GTS time is around  7:50, then there have been no progress from BMW since M3 CSL. E92 M3 is faster than E46 by 15-20 sec. on NoS.

We'll see next week when the september issue arrives by 20th of August.

BTW, I don't have a GTS, so the lap time is no big deal for me. I just want to add some ///M color to Rennteam; that's it

--

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Here is my favorite M3 GTS picture I come up on internet:

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

pride355:

 I just want to add some ///M color to Rennteam; that's it

--

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

 

Currently on my summer holidays on Adriatic Coast till end of August.

Regarding your question... M3 GTS will be very, very fast on the Ring. How fast? Your guess time is almost correct...

JUST... M3 GTS is almost undrivable on normal road. Harder in suspension then 997.2 GT3RS for example. Price is also not very inviting IMHO... All in all M3 GTS is a car for die hard BMW M fans IMHO.

KresoF1:

Currently on my summer holidays on Adriatic Coast till end of August.

Regarding your question... M3 GTS will be very, very fast on the Ring. How fast? Your guess time is almost correct...

JUST... M3 GTS is almost undrivable on normal road. Harder in suspension then 997.2 GT3RS for example. Price is also not very inviting IMHO... All in all M3 GTS is a car for die hard BMW M fans IMHO.

Happy Summer Holidays Kreso

I also think that the price of the GTS is not inviting BUT all 125 or 150 cars are sold out.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

For the track, the M3 GTS may be fun to drive but for street driving, I would actually feel ashamed driving this car for various reasons. It looks like a supped up 3 series, no offense meant.

The GT3 RS is a different story, people recognize it or at least the 911 "beneath" it, so it is OK.

The M3 GTS has been an attempt by M GmbH to cope with demand for a competitive track fun car. The price tag is way too high and the limited production may make it interesting for collectors but not for track addicts.

I have very mixed feelings about this car, can't help it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Scanned images courtesy of member Dackelone from M3post

They both sound marvelous why BMW won one more star?

Kreso can you give us a hint about the LFA laptime? It did the best wet lap time at Topgear track and if you take 4s for the wet track...Enzo,Pagani lap time.  7 days to know the final outcome

Happy holidays for everyone!

Leblanc:

They both sound marvelous why BMW won one more star?

Actually the RS won one more star, not the GTS (4:3).
 

key statements from the article:

> on the handling parcours the GTS "stands no chance" vs RS

> GTS feels (comparably) too heavy in the corners, shows understeer at the limit, "dancing" at corner exit (less traction than RS) 

> GTS looks like a tuning car

> only department where the GTS wins is sound

public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

I think its not fair to compare it to the GT3 RS, and to state that there is a price difference of 25k. A "normal" GT3 would also have done the job to beat the GTS, and the huge price difference would not be an issue anymore.

I think its insane to sell a 3 Series for 136k (German prices), who will buy that? You can get same car as a 318i for 31k. I hink the M3 is more than a great car, and also the maximum they should do out of that platform and it costs 69k, offer some performance packages as they do, and finish. If BMW wants to offer "911 competitors", they should start working on a new platform. Why not actually?! I am sure they could make great high end sports cars. Audi started this step with the R8, so why BMW is not also making a real sports car, in lets say 3 variants. One against the 911, one against the 911GT3 and one against TT.  

Porsche-Jeck:

> GTS feels (comparably) too heavy in the corners, shows understeer at the limit, "dancing" at corner exit (less traction than RS) 

 

The heavy feel of the M3 is another piece of evidence in favor of my personal theory: if a car feels a bit clumsy in the standard version (let it be our M3 or the 599GTB or any other car) it is highly unlikely if not impossible to get rid of this clumsiness by optimizing the car (M3 GTS or 599GTB). In essence, the genetics decide whether a car has real potential 

P.S.: I like the M3 (we own one too). It is just not as perfect as a 911... But then: it has more interior space (sedan, in particular)

MKSGR:

Porsche-Jeck:

> GTS feels (comparably) too heavy in the corners, shows understeer at the limit, "dancing" at corner exit (less traction than RS) 

 

 

The heavy feel of the M3 is another piece of evidence in favor of my personal theory: if a car feels a bit clumsy in the standard version (let it be our M3 or the 599GTB or any other car) it is highly unlikely if not impossible to get rid of this clumsiness by optimizing the car (M3 GTS or 599GTB). In essence, the genetics decide whether a car has real potential 

P.S.: I like the M3 (we own one too). It is just not as perfect as a 911... But then: it has more interior space (sedan, in particular)

Marcus,

3 series platform is not the ideal platform to start from the beginning BUT I prefer and like the handling characteristic  of front engine-rear wheel drive chassie over rear engine-rear wheel drive.

M3 GTS is still too heavy against GT3 RS. However, my guess time is very good for GTS and GT3 RS is not faster on Nos as one expects. If you put the 2 cars side by side and ask people their prediction of the lap time, one would guess at least 20 sec. between the two (as you already did)

However, GTS is on par with regular GT3 in terms of lap times and around 5 sec. slower than RS. It is a big achievement by BMW, IMO.

Weight is the biggest problem with E9X M3, on the other hand and it is also my only problem with my own M3. I wish it weighted around 1450 kg but you can't have it all.

--

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

Avoe:

I think its not fair to compare it to the GT3 RS, and to state that there is a price difference of 25k. A "normal" GT3 would also have done the job to beat the GTS, and the huge price difference would not be an issue anymore. 

I agree with you. CSL should be the hardest version of an M3. Once you put in the roll- cage, take out the rear seats and throw in a race suspansion, you start competing in a different league and in that league it is impossible to be the best with the basic 3 series platform.

BMW should built up a car more like a CSL with the proper advantages of the basic 3 series platform which means place for 4 people, adequate luggage capacity, and everyday driving.

GTS is against all of these features. Actually GTS doesn't have these features. On the other hand, it is big in size and therefore heavy. However, BMW could find 150 buyers without a sweat and all of the cars are sold with that 136K euro price tag. At first, it was priced at 119K. which is just a tiny bit cheaper than regular GT3. I don't know where that 136K price comes from?

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

Porsche-Jeck:

Leblanc:

They both sound marvelous why BMW won one more star?

Actually the RS won one more star, not the GTS (4:3).

I was referring to the sound that comes from the tail pipes...no matter.

pride355:

3 series platform is not the ideal platform to start from the beginning BUT I prefer and like the handling characteristic  of front engine-rear wheel drive chassie over rear engine-rear wheel drive.

 

I see your point. The front engine/RWD does have advantages as well.

The two major issues I have with the M3 setup (compared to the 911):

- weight distribution makes the M3 much heavier when turning into bends. This results in the kind of turn-in understeer I don't like (namely: understeer which is the outcome of too much weight pushing... - in contrast I tend to like the understeer cars like the GT Porsches or the Scuderia produce, as this is clearly a "designed" understeer, signalling the "status" of the car).

- the M3 lacks grip at the rear axle (the 911 simply has more weight there) under full acceleration.

Compared to other sporty cars of its class the M3 is the best handling car still (that's why we bought one!). It is just the comparison with the 911 platform which shows the benefits of the Porsche design 

MKSGR:

The two major issues I have with the M3 setup (compared to the 911):

- weight distribution makes the M3 much heavier when turning into bends. This results in the kind of turn-in understeer I don't like (namely: understeer which is the outcome of too much weight pushing... - in contrast I tend to like the understeer cars like the GT Porsches or the Scuderia produce, as this is clearly a "designed" understeer, signalling the "status" of the car).

- the M3 lacks grip at the rear axle (the 911 simply has more weight there) under full acceleration.

Compared to other sporty cars of its class the M3 is the best handling car still (that's why we bought one!). It is just the comparison with the 911 platform which shows the benefits of the Porsche design 

Marcus,

M3 is heavy but because of the chassie balance, it doesn't push in the corners as bad as you describe. I haven't push my E92 M3, yet but my ex E46 M3s and especially my friend's M3 CSL was very good about turn-in response.

911 has one advantage here. Actually if you can use its rear engine-rear drive lay out, it doesn't understeer at all. You just lift of the throttle for a while, and the tail comes out. once you turn-in, just put the throttle back so that car starts to oversteer and you take the turn. This is fun. BUT at high speeds, it is rather dangerous.

On the other hand, M3 is not too sensitive about lift-off oversteer (again I'm not talking about E92). You should brake before the corner and have the weight in front and steer the car to the apex. Then you push the throttle and leave the corner with a good throttle oversteer. This is more fun, IMO.

But then again, E92 is little fat. More of my driving opininon is coming, once I drive my car little more.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

2 more days to go. Any speculation on the Ring time of the GTS?? 

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

.....IMHO disappointing results. If this is intended to be a clubsport toy, the price/performance ratio doesn't fit at all

NoS in 7:48 and HHR in 1:12,5 can be achieved with any used 997.1 GT3 for almost half of the price (HHR even better...1:11,7).

0-300-0 test couldn't be conducted properly as the GTS obviously needs a looooooooong stretch of road to gain 300

public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

Porsche-Jeck:

0-300-0 test couldn't be conducted properly as the GTS obviously needs a looooooooong stretch of road to gain 300

 

 

4 km of straight is not enough for the GTS to reach 300 km/h? That's strange.

Porsche-Jeck:

.....IMHO disappointing results. If this is intended to be a clubsport toy, the price/performance ratio doesn't fit at all

NoS in 7:48 and HHR in 1:12,5 can be achieved with any used 997.1 GT3 for almost half of the price (HHR even better...1:11,7).

0-300-0 test couldn't be conducted properly as the GTS obviously needs a looooooooong stretch of road to gain 300

 

 

 While the NBR time is nearly exactly in line with my expectations the HHR time is a bit below what I would have expected. I think the car is too expensive for this level of performance.

My wife owns the M3 Cab DKG. Thinking back, I don't think it was a good idea to get this car for her. Too heavy (200 kg more than the Coupe), fuel consumption is out of this world (she can't get the M3 below 19 l / 100 km, when I drive the car I usually end up with 19-21 l / 100 km) and acceleration under 140 kph is very disappointing for a 420 HP car. The car is only fun above 160 kph on the Autobahn and when driving open through the city, enjoying the fantastic exhaust sound.

I drove a 997 Carrera Cabriolet (not S !) PDK a couple of times and I have to say that this car feels much more "alive" than the M3 Cab, it feels also faster and handles much better. The 911 is a much better basis for a track racing car and the GT3 RS is a very good example for that.

Yes, I think the GT3 would have done a similar job vs. the M3 GTS but also keep in mind that the M3 GTS is limited edition, so I actually believe that BMW just wanted to make a point, not necessarily put a true GT3 RS competitor on the street.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

My wife owns the M3 Cab DKG. Thinking back, I don't think it was a good idea to get this car for her. Too heavy (200 kg more than the Coupe), fuel consumption is out of this world (she can't get the M3 below 19 l / 100 km, when I drive the car I usually end up with 19-21 l / 100 km) and acceleration under 140 kph is very disappointing for a 420 HP car. The car is only fun above 160 kph on the Autobahn and when driving open through the city, enjoying the fantastic exhaust sound.

I drove a 997 Carrera Cabriolet (not S !) PDK a couple of times and I have to say that this car feels much more "alive" than the M3 Cab, it feels also faster and handles much better. The 911 is a much better basis for a track racing car and the GT3 RS is a very good example for that.

Yes, I think the GT3 would have done a similar job vs. the M3 GTS but also keep in mind that the M3 GTS is limited edition, so I actually believe that BMW just wanted to make a point, not necessarily put a true GT3 RS competitor on the street.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 The 997 Cab is really a great car  BTW, your wife's fuel consumption does speak for its own  She might drive faster than one would usually think 

2 seconds faster than CSL....rubbish. And all this equiped with DKG.

RC:

My wife owns the M3 Cab DKG. Thinking back, I don't think it was a good idea to get this car for her. Too heavy (200 kg more than the Coupe), fuel consumption is out of this world (she can't get the M3 below 19 l / 100 km, when I drive the car I usually end up with 19-21 l / 100 km) and acceleration under 140 kph is very disappointing for a 420 HP car. The car is only fun above 160 kph on the Autobahn and when driving open through the city, enjoying the fantastic exhaust sound.

I drove a 997 Carrera Cabriolet (not S !) PDK a couple of times and I have to say that this car feels much more "alive" than the M3 Cab, it feels also faster and handles much better. The 911 is a much better basis for a track racing car and the GT3 RS is a very good example for that.

Yes, I think the GT3 would have done a similar job vs. the M3 GTS but also keep in mind that the M3 GTS is limited edition, so I actually believe that BMW just wanted to make a point, not necessarily put a true GT3 RS competitor on the street.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Christian,

I would also prefer 911 Carrera Cabrio PDK over M3 cabrio.

M3 GTS is maybe a good track fun and a limited run BUT anyone could come up with a GTS if he buys a second hand M3, strip down the interior, throw in some coilovers and 6 pot Brembos. It can be done aftermarket.

Instead of GTS, BMW should have come up a new E92 CSL.

E46 CSL, is still for me the best M car ever produced. I still cannot believe how did that car lapped the Ring in 7:50 and was faster than its GT3 rival. Yet, it was a daily basis car without a roll cage and had place for 4. And that marvelous intake sound

I really like my E92 M3, especially my car with all of its options, including seats. However, if I had a chance to buy a silver grey brand new E46 CSL, I think I would prefer that over my E92 M3.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

Leblanc:

2 seconds faster than CSL....rubbish. And all this equiped with DKG.

I agree

I think GT3 RS isn't M3 GTS main rival. RS is in another league. CSL is GTS biggest rival and IMO, GT3 has failed for a big time. It was not only produced 7 years later than CSL, but it has 90 hp more, has stronger brakes, better aerodynamics, double clutch, wider tires, special track orianted suspansion setup and latest technology cup tires BUT only 2 sec. faster than CSL.

A very big dissappoinment And when you put the price in the calculation, the failure of the car seems to be bigger.

Test result of GTS means there was no progress since CSL What a shame..

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

You should check out the disappointment on the official M forum (sorry, mostly German).

I don't understand why people are actually upset: the M3 GTS is too heavy for a real GT3 RS competitor, even the M3 is a pretty heavy car.

@pride355: Sport Auto also tested the Audi TT RS with S-tronic. 0-100 kph in amazing 4.2 seconds, 0-200 kph in 16.1 seconds. This thing is faster than the M3 and a speed raise to 280 kph is also available. Of course the TT RS can't beat the M3 regarding exhaust sound but for merely 70000 EUR with a few options, the TT RS is really a bargain. Right now, my favorite "budget racer".

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

@pride355: Sport Auto also tested the Audi TT RS with S-tronic. 0-100 kph in amazing 4.2 seconds, 0-200 kph in 16.1 seconds. This thing is faster than the M3 and a speed raise to 280 kph is also available. Of course the TT RS can't beat the M3 regarding exhaust sound but for merely 70000 EUR with a few options, the TT RS is really a bargain. Right now, my favorite "budget racer".

Christian,

I didn't know that TT-RS finally gets the S-Tronic option. This would make the Car more attractive, IMO.

That thing is a pocket-rocket for sure. I had a TTS, as you know, and it was a fast car for its class. RS is a serious car when it comes to accelerating.

BUT, it has dull handling feeling. I haven't driven the RS but I can imagine how the front wheel drive haldex system reacts in driving experience. It is no no for me. Driving dynamics are weak and M3 is a 50% more of a car than TT-RS, IMO.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

 That time doesn't make sense. Only 2 seconds faster than a car that it should absolutely destroy? Yikes.

This car will look great in the garage right next to the Nurburgring edition LFA.

wedouglas:

This car will look great in the garage right next to the Nurburgring edition LFA.

Do not forget the 997 Carrera Sport Classic. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW