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    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Currently the R only competes in the FiA GT3 championship and VLN  (and serves as the substitute for the old Cup S)

    The RSR competes in the ACO sanctioned races. (ALMS, LMS and Le Mans) in the GT2 class.

    I think we will see a "evolution" of the R in the ACO sanctioned races from next year on.

    Note that the Hybrid is based on the R and not the RSR.

    Porsche will likely be racing the Hybrid (as a demo I suspect) at Petit Le Mans (ALMS) , and is pushing the ACO to introduce Hybrid rules for the GT2 class for 2011. 

    If they succeed, I suspect we will see a R Hybrid in the ALMS from 2011 onwards.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Andreas Preuninger of Porsche Motorsport explains the differences and similarities between the Porsche 911 GT3 road car and the 'strictly for race' models...

    Andreas-Preuninger_Porsche-911-GT3.jpg

    Andreas-Preuninger_Porsche-911-GT3_Motorsport-link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Great clarifications!  Some of this I realized already, but you guys bring it all together (again).

    So, if the RSR drops out, and the R evolves into GT2 class, what will Porsche sell for the GT3 class?  An R with performance limitations?  An RS Cup?  Perhaps they will let the Cayman off its leash a bit?  It seems that they need two race cars on the market...

    I've had an impression (perhaps dead wrong) that race cars are higher maintenance than street/track cars in addition to higher performance.  It's good to see so much in common between the two platforms (particularly the engine).  Is the transmission / clutch a large maintenance difference?  Or is it just the crucible of racing that leads to higher service requirements?

    I had been intrigued by the idea of buying an older Cup car (for track events, not racing) a while back, but had the impression that maintenance would be too big of an issue...

     edit: One more question - what does "Cup" actually mean or stand for...?

    Thanks!


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     Given the speculation, it certainly seems that the next gen 991 GT3RS will have a Mezger GT1 block based on A.P.'s comments. Since the latest RSR is up to 4.0 litres, should this also indicate that the next RS will actually follow suit? It might be at least a couple of years before we see the next gen GT3/RS so it's still feasible that Porsche could develop a version of the new 9A1 with PDK. I'm sure that the new car would be incrementally better/faster given Porsche's usual tendency.. Does anyone have any better insights?


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    davew (cincy):

    Great clarifications!  Some of this I realized already, but you guys bring it all together (again).

    So, if the RSR drops out, and the R evolves into GT2 class, what will Porsche sell for the GT3 class?  An R with performance limitations?  An RS Cup?  Perhaps they will let the Cayman off its leash a bit?  It seems that they need two race cars on the market...

    I've had an impression (perhaps dead wrong) that race cars are higher maintenance than street/track cars in addition to higher performance.  It's good to see so much in common between the two platforms (particularly the engine).  Is the transmission / clutch a large maintenance difference?  Or is it just the crucible of racing that leads to higher service requirements?

    I had been intrigued by the idea of buying an older Cup car (for track events, not racing) a while back, but had the impression that maintenance would be too big of an issue...

     edit: One more question - what does "Cup" actually mean or stand for...?

    Thanks!

    The " CUP" stands for the one-make cups series.

    If the R "evolves" to the GT2 class it will most probably be called something different.

    One possibility is we see the "R" in GT3 and "R hybrid" in GT2.

    Porsche (and some other manufacturers) are keen to see a reduction in the different types of cars that they have to build for the various racing series. They would very much like to have one car with different stages of tuning for different series.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    If the engine needs homologation to be used in racing, isn't the same true for the gearbox? Because if so, right now, PDK can't be used in a GT2/3/RS etc...

    So for the future GTx PDK should be homologated first.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Pentium:

    If the engine needs homologation to be used in racing, isn't the same true for the gearbox? Because if so, right now, PDK can't be used in a GT2/3/RS etc...

    So for the future GTx PDK should be homologated first.

    It is the car that is homologated and not just the engine.

    As for the gearbox:

    9.2.3 - Gearbox :
    a/ Forward ratios : 6 maximum ;
    b/ Provided original location and orientation are retained
    (ACO Homologation form), the gearbox is free ;

    c/ Possible modifications of the underbody are permitted to
    fit the gearbox and the differential but only with the ACO
    agreement and under the express condition that they do
    no not modify too much :
    c.1 - The integrity of the main structure ;
    c.2 - The cockpit inside measurements.

     

    The problem lies here:

    9.3 - Clutch :
    Conventional mechanical design only, material free :
    • The only energy which can operate the clutch is the one
    provided by the driver. This one must exert with its foot all
    the pressure necessary to operate and control the
    mechanism of the clutch.
    If the original vehicle is fitted with a power-driven clutch with
    electronic or pneumatic control, the mechanism may be replaced
    but the whole original control system must be retained

     

     


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    That' s why the might come with a semi-sequencial ? Pull   the gears up without the need to clutch, and when you push to go down on the gears you need to press the clutch ( just like in some formulas )


    --
     

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Possibly. - The gearbox is not (or has not) been an issue.

    Both the R and RSR have sequential racing dog gearboxes (and the homologation RS does not). I suspect future R and/or RSR's will have the same.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     I've heard that the sequential (as used on the GT3 racecars) is virtually unusable on the street and that it's almost unusable in the paddock too.  Supposedly, the service intervals are very short (with high expenses) too.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Porsche 991 speculation from Automobile magazine...

    991_Automobile-magazine-article.jpg

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    thats a good bas to start from....


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    And the 100mm wheelbase increase is confirmed. You may recall I talked about this months ago when I read a Preuninger interview stating that. Some say that PAG is increasing the 911 wheelbase (making it longer than the Cayman's) to deal with US fuel regs that has to do with car size - crazy I know. Here we have governments designing cars. The 991 will lose the 911 driving dynamics. It will be more stable but less fun.

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    not just governments, the US government

    ADias

    The 991 will lose the 911 driving dynamics. It will be more stable but less fun.

    That would be VERY sad. But I hear the next boxster/Cayman will move up the Porsche food chain considerably. The cayman with proper (read more powerful)  engine will be a beast!


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Sounds like I need to pick up the latest version of the GT3RS before the change takes place...


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    ADias:

    And the 100mm wheelbase increase is confirmed. You may recall I talked about this months ago when I read a Preuninger interview stating that. Some say that PAG is increasing the 911 wheelbase (making it longer than the Cayman's) to deal with US fuel regs that has to do with car size - crazy I know. Here we have governments designing cars. The 991 will lose the 911 driving dynamics. It will be more stable but less fun.

    So I guess that it's time to stock up.


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    997 Carrera's are down to 50 to 60k now here. It's amazing! That's the same they charge for a 993


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    I hope the hidden wing design on this rendering becomes reality.  I have for some time thought the visible rear wing on turbos, etc. detracts from the sleek, clean lines of the 997 series.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Wonderbar:

    I hope the hidden wing design on this rendering becomes reality.  I have for some time thought the visible rear wing on turbos, etc. detracts from the sleek, clean lines of the 997 series.


    +1


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Porsche GT1 Engine: “The Legend Lives”

    - 60 Years of Porsche by Christophorus -

    For more than 40 years, the engines used in the Porsche 911 models have provided for extraordinary driving pleasure as well as major racing victories. Providing reliable power in the rear of the car, this core component has evolved over four decades with major technical advances.

    1276157435557The Legend Lives - pic 1.jpg

    Grown-up: The engine in the Porsche 911 GT3...

    A boxer engine never gives up. It ducks away, slips into the tightest gap, and releases a powerful punch. It has defied the world now for almost 45 years. This 911 engine was made for driving full speed ahead. It sits snugly behind the rear axle, where its power enjoys full play and where it propels the 911 forward in compliance with the whims and pleasure of the driver. It is the king of both the road and the racetrack, and a synonym for all the properties that ennoble a machine: robust, reliable, and strong as an ox.

    This engine started out in 1963 as a 2.0-litre unit with 130 horsepower. In 1978 it reached 845 hp in the “Moby Dick” racer. In the 997 version of the 911 GT3, it plays with a capacity of 3.6 litres and 415 horsepower, and 480 in the 911 Turbo. It has swallowed gasoline and methanol, and versions have won Le Mans a hefty 14 times. It has viewed every boost in its capacity as a spur to greater performance, and it has never sputtered in either induction or turbocharged form. It continues to be transformed to this day—having been called RS, GT1, GT2, or GT3, each signifying higher levels of performance.

    Even in 1997, when the big fan wheel was retired for good and what had previously been an air-cooled boxer engine was now redesigned as a liquid-cooled power pack, it never lost its soul. Nor its sound and certainly not its power. Moreover, this 911 assembly is a classic example of the delicate balance between performance and fuel consumption. At the turn of the millennium, the last air-cooled 911 bi-turbo (Type 993) could be counted among the cleanest cars in the world.

    1276157483939The Legend Lives - pic 2.jpg

    Birth of an engine: Right after assembly...

    The Legend Lives - pic 3.jpg

    Chassis meets body: The engine celebrates a “wedding”...

    This is a great track record for an engine whose designers actually miscalculated it in a marvellous way. With the Carrera 3.0, they had attained undreamt of capacity levels by the mid-1970s, which subsequently led Ferry Porsche to admit, “Had I known in 1960 that it would be possible to expand an engine to well over three litres, I would have told my engineers to make it smaller. I’m glad I didn’t know.”

    The engineers meant well. In the early 1970s, the new Porsche 911 also needed a new engine. For reasons of space, it was to re-main a boxer engine with six cylinders—strong and expandable. Hans Mezger, an engineer and the father of many successful Porsche racing engines, joined the 911 team. He contributed his experience from the Formula One, which had influenced his entire working career. As he explained, “The shape of the combustion chamber is a crucial factor in fuel consumption and performance.” And so it was reworked from top to bottom yet again. Other essential technical innovations included the dry-sump lubrication as well as the hydraulic chain tensioner and slide rails. In contrast to a wet-sump system, the dry-sump collects the oil that always accumulates at the base of the crankcase, extracts it, and feeds it back into the oil tank. This keeps oil quality at a higher level, which in turn benefits sensitive components such as con-rod bearings. And despite engine expansion at high temperatures, the hydraulic chain tensioner ensures that the chain runs without a hitch.

    The Legend Lives - pic 4.jpg 

    These two factors—technology and experience—were the promising preconditions for coaxing ever greater power from the engine for both the production cars and racers. To quote Mezger again, “It’s the easiest thing in the world to change the capacity.”

    Still, it was courageous to bring the first 911 Turbo 3.0 onto the market in 1975, right on the heels of the oil crisis. The engine commanded 260 horsepower (234 in the United States) at the time at an inconceivably modest (for a Porsche) 5,500 rpm. But Porsche had driven to major victories in North America with the turbocharged twelve-cylinder engines in the 917 Spyders, and had mastered the feared “turbo lag” with the help of small turbo-chargers and a bypass-based, boost-pressure control system (the waste gate). This experience was applied to the 911 Turbo, known as the 930.

    The Legend Lives - pic 6.jpg

    Hands-on: Engine assembly requires just the right touch...

    The 911 engine also survived the introduction of catalytic converters with flying colours. Because of its strong presence on the North American market, Porsche started tackling exhaust emissions and was experimenting with thermal reactors in the collector before catalytic converters became mandatory in the United States. Exhaust was combusted several times before being emitted. And catalytic converters were used in the early 1980s at the 944 Cup. So Porsche learned to handle the exhaust back-pressure arising from these converters. It optimized the honey-comb structures in the converter monolith accordingly. With its 3.6-liter capacity and 285 horsepower, the last air-cooled 911 was a pièce de résistance. And it was the last of its type.

    The air-cooled community might have mourned briefly—only to be promptly thrilled in 1997 with the first water-cooled 911. The engineers didn’t let the emotional attachment dip even slightly. Thomas Krickelberg, a pupil of Mezger and a power-train project director for the 911 Carrera series, recalls that “the engine continued to sit in the rear, and we built yet another six-cylinder boxer. This meant that the firing order and the charge cycle were predetermined—and thus the air-induction noises and the exhaust sounds were practically identical to those of its predecessor.” But the engineers still redid the design, following the credo of Ferry Porsche and Mezger. Because greater capacity also means higher fuel consumption, Porsche was increasingly harnessing new technology to achieve greater engine speed while reducing fuel consumption. The 911 of 1997 therefore had only a 3.4-liter capacity, but 300 horsepower.

    The Legend Lives - pic 5.jpg

    This was followed by the introduction of VarioCam Plus, which uses oil pressure to achieve continuously variable electro hydraulic timing control of the intake camshafts. VarioCam Plus also enabled two-step electro hydraulic adjustment of the intake valves, which ensured optimum combustion and a parallel reduction in fuel consumption.

    The Legend Lives - pic 8.jpg

    Powerplant: Porsche engines made at the main factory in Zuffenhausen...

    The development of the turbo would be interesting for environmental reasons alone. In addition to boost-pressure control, charge-air coolers had long become standard and the turbo became a bi-turbo (with two smaller compressors). Another ground-breaking effort was the introduction of variable turbine geometry. It optimizes exhaust flow to the turbine blades, resulting in better low-rpm response without sacrificing high-speed power.

    The Legend Lives - pic 7.jpg

    Drivers can enjoy impressive torque and response even in lower rpm ranges, and their cars also need considerably less fuel. The current turbo has 480 hp for a 3.6-liter capacity. To achieve comparable performance levels, a naturally aspirated engine would need a capacity of 5.4 litres, which would also require substantially more fuel. Even next to these high-tech assemblies, the original 911 makes a respectable showing. The heart of the 997 Turbo continues to beat in a crankcase like that of the old engine, and the cylinder heads and housing resemble those of the legendary “super 911,” the Porsche 959.

    History continues to be written—and the legend lives... 

    Porsche-GT1-Mezger-Engine_The-Legend-Lives_Christophorus-article-link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed


    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Porsche GT1 Engine: “The Legend Lives”


    Birth of an engine: Right after assembly...

    The Legend Lives - pic 3.jpg


    probably the exact same floor area, same overalls;

     


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Atzporsche:

    not just governments, the US government

    ADias

    The 991 will lose the 911 driving dynamics. It will be more stable but less fun.

    That would be VERY sad. But I hear the next boxster/Cayman will move up the Porsche food chain considerably. The cayman with proper (read more powerful)  engine will be a beast!


    Sounds like Cayman will become the spiritual successor of 911


    --

    93' Guard Red 968 Coupe


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Monster:
    Atzporsche:

    not just governments, the US government

    ADias

    The 991 will lose the 911 driving dynamics. It will be more stable but less fun.

    That would be VERY sad. But I hear the next boxster/Cayman will move up the Porsche food chain considerably. The cayman with proper (read more powerful)  engine will be a beast!


    Sounds like Cayman will become the spiritual successor of 911

     No, it's the GT3 that is what all 911's should be.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Monster:
    Atzporsche:

    not just governments, the US government

    ADias

    The 991 will lose the 911 driving dynamics. It will be more stable but less fun.

    That would be VERY sad. But I hear the next boxster/Cayman will move up the Porsche food chain considerably. The cayman with proper (read more powerful)  engine will be a beast!


    Sounds like Cayman will become the spiritual successor of 911

    Why? The Cayman is a mid-engine - different animal, different dynamics. It also has a longer wheelbase. It has a quick turn-in due to its low polar moment, but imagine it with a smaller wheelbase...

    Increasing wheelbase in a sports car is not a good move. I suspect that the last 911 is the 997. Well, some say it was the 993. I disagree - the 997 still have a lot of the go-kart dynamics of the original car.


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    ADias:
    Monster:
    Atzporsche:

    not just governments, the US government

    ADias

    The 991 will lose the 911 driving dynamics. It will be more stable but less fun.

    That would be VERY sad. But I hear the next boxster/Cayman will move up the Porsche food chain considerably. The cayman with proper (read more powerful)  engine will be a beast!


    Sounds like Cayman will become the spiritual successor of 911

    Why? The Cayman is a mid-engine - different animal, different dynamics. It also has a longer wheelbase. It has a quick turn-in due to its low polar moment, but imagine it with a smaller wheelbase...

    Increasing wheelbase in a sports car is not a good move. I suspect that the last 911 is the 997. Well, some say it was the 993. I disagree - the 997 still have a lot of the go-kart dynamics of the original car.


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

    You mean increasing wheelbase for a rear engine sports car is not a good move?
     

    For midengine sports car long wheelbase is actually a good thing. My guess is the next gen of Cayman/Boxster will also use little bit longer wheelbase.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    ADias:

    ........Increasing wheelbase in a sports car is not a good move......

     


    Not necessarily true.....Porsche increased the wheelbase of the 911/912  in 1969 specifically to improve its handling.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    964C2:
    ADias:

    ........Increasing wheelbase in a sports car is not a good move......

     


    Not necessarily true.....Porsche increased the wheelbase of the 911/912  in 1969 specifically to improve its handling.

    You made my point.  Yes about 2" in '69 and again about 2' in '99. And every time we lost some of the 'go-kart' dynamics. But now... it is another 4" (the sum total of the previous increases) and, mark my words, the car will not be the same. It may be more stable, but that is not what some of us like in the car.

    I drove a Corvette C6 for a while. I came back to the 11 exactly because the C6 has a longer wheelbase. It is a very stable car, but it is not as much fun as a 997. A 991 will also be less fun - more sterile.


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Sports car wheelbase statistics...

    Nissan GT-R: 2,780 mm
    BMW M3 V8: 2,761 mm
    Ferrari 599 GTB: 2,750 mm
    Aston Martin DB9: 2,740 mm
    Porsche Carrera GT: 2,730 mm
    McLaren F1: 2,718 mm
    Bugatti Veyron: 2,710 mm
    Ferrari 458 Italia: 2,650 mm
    Ferrari Enzo: 2,650 mm
    Audi R8 V10: 2,650 mm
    Lexus LFA: 2,605 mm
    Aston Martin V12 Vantage: 2,600 mm
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia: 2,600 mm
    Ferrari 360 Modena: 2,600 mm
    Lamborghini Gallardo LP560: 2,560 mm
    Porsche 928: 2,500 mm
    Ferrari F40: 2,451 mm
    Porsche Boxster Spyder: 2,415 mm
    Porsche Cayman S: 2,415 mm
    Porsche 997.2 GT3: 2,355 mm
    Porsche 959: 2,272 mm

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    ADias:

    You made my point.  Yes about 2" in '69 and again about 2' in '99. And every time we lost some of the 'go-kart' dynamics. But now... it is another 4" (the sum total of the previous increases) and, mark my words, the car will not be the same. It may be more stable, but that is not what some of us like in the car.

    According to this source:  The 997's wheelbase is 3.1 inches longer than the 993's:

    http://www.insideline.com/porsche/911/2010/2010-porsche-997-vs-1994-porsche-993.html

    Also, the overall length of the 997 is well over 6" longer than a 993 (which is itself longer than the earlier 911's).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    There is no guarantee that increasing of decreasing wheelbase will have positive or negative effects on the car. Guess you'll just have to wait and see.

    One thing I am certain about is that the new 911 will be better than the last. Whether or not you like the feeling will be subjective.


     
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