Crown

WAY:

Sorry Spyder, I meant Vettel was ahead, not behind!  But fact remains that Webber left him enough room and did not squeeze him.  I mean, if he left him more room, then he would be seen to be making it too easy for Vettel as you often see with Massa in the past.

IMO it was a racing incident.

Unfortunately, with numerous video replays and over-analysis, F1 will become like football (soccer) where every player contact and suspected offside is captured from 10 cameras and people instead of enjoying the game they argue about every single incident.

"Form follows function"

Spyderidol:

WAY:

Sorry Spyder, I meant Vettel was ahead, not behind!  But fact remains that Webber left him enough room and did not squeeze him.  I mean, if he left him more room, then he would be seen to be making it too easy for Vettel as you often see with Massa in the past.

  

Here is an interesting rumour.  Apparently Webber was told to turn down his engine three laps earlier, while Vettel was told to turn his up.  That would explain why Vettel was gaining 2 to 3 tenth a lap on Webber suddenly.  Question is, why?  Is it because RBR is preparing to get rid of Webber in favour of Kimi for next year and want to ensure their star Vettel wins the championship instead of somebody who will be driving for another team???

 Maybe Vettel just used less fuel than Webber? Vettel saw a good opportunity and went for it. Strange that he went to the right while he had some space on the left. He mentioned something that he lost control and therefore swerved to the right. Whose fault? Guess 70% Vettel and 30% Webber. Racing incident to me. This is what F1 needs! 

993 Targa Black/Black

WAY:

Here is an interesting rumour.  Apparently Webber was told to turn down his engine three laps earlier, while Vettel was told to turn his up.  That would explain why Vettel was gaining 2 to 3 tenth a lap on Webber suddenly.  Question is, why?  Is it because RBR is preparing to get rid of Webber in favour of Kimi for next year and want to ensure their star Vettel wins the championship instead of somebody who will be driving for another team???

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83912

"Form follows function"

WAY:

When he hit Webber, he was in the middle of the track!

The incident wouldn´t have happened if Webber would´ve left more room to Vettel. The later´s move to the right certainly caused the contact but, the next corner being a left-hander, you would want to approach it from the right hand side of the track.  With Hamilton and Button approaching from behind, the Red Bull didn´t have time for an extensive battle on their own.

Between two competitors, this could be classified as a regular race incident. Among two teammates, this shouldn´t happen. Certainly both played a role in it.

993Targa:

 Strange that he went to the right while he had some space on the left.

Not so strange considering he had a sharp left turn approaching, he wanted a better angle so that he would not go wide and give the position back leaving the turn.

Red Bull put the blame on Webber.

http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/18930.html

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FERRARI RULES!!!

REALZEUS:

Red Bull put the blame on Webber.

http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/18930.html

 

 yes, but why didn't the Red Bull Team tell Webber over the radio that he should let Vettel pass if the later tried to overtake ?

The team is also to blame.
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Gauss:

REALZEUS:

Red Bull put the blame on Webber.

http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/18930.html

 

 

 yes, but why didn't the Red Bull Team tell Webber over the radio that he should let Vettel pass if the later tried to overtake ?

The team is also to blame.
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I would imagine that either they didn't think it would be a problem, or they were fearful of the "no team orders" rule.
 

Enmanuel:

Gauss:

Carlos from Spain:

I cannot believe what Vettel jus did his team needs to discipline him severly afterwards in the box. Webber has consistently outperformed him lately and Vettel is known to make big mistakes under pressure but this is ridiculous. He has just emabrrased himself and his team

I wasn't a fan of Webber but now I hope he finishes in front of vettel in this season.

 What is worse is that Vettel isn't even admitting his fault. 

 That was a very stupid move from him. And the McL team almost made the same mistake, the mood in the podium was very tense. 

Are you serious guys  Watch it again and keep in mind who was faster. The grudge against Vettel is totally uncalled for, he is competitive and wants to win. Yes he is young, maybe needs to develop his character a little, but he was not 100% at fault here so why should he apologize....

This was a rough racing incident at best, F1 is back and exciting again I think Vettel was a bit too aggressive and Webber didn't give enough room, a lose lose really for the entire team.

It was a pretty good race with McLaren so strong. Also good to see MB seem to have found more speed than Ferrari. Where was Alonso? 
 

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

Atzporsche:

It was a pretty good race with McLaren so strong. Also good to see MB seem to have found more speed than Ferrari. Where was Alonso? 
 

I expect McLaren to overcome RBR very soon, with Mercedes GP as the third team. Ferrari will fight with Renault for fourth.

As regards Drivers', so many mistakes this year that the championship might not go to the driver with the best car.

"Form follows function"

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/so-is-vettel-the-favoured-son-at-red-bull/

What I have seen: Vettel clearly was in front of Webber as they approached the corner, and Webber did not move away.

By the book, Webber is at fault, RBR's reaction is ok.

On the other hand Vettel could have avoided the crash by staying on the left side of the track, risking that Webber retakes the lead at the next corner.

Vettel chose to pull right. I bet he learned a lesson today: Being right is not worth losing 18 safe points.

IMO, Webber making room for Vettel equals letting him pass, he just held position. It's his right to do so, Vettel made the move, he has to make sure he ends it safely, he should know his competitor is not obliged to make room when batteling for position. You can't just bully your way passed.

Yes, Vettel was in front of Webber, that's true. But he did not pass him entirely, yet he suddenly pulled right. There was absolutely no need for him to do so, he was NOT on the tarmac, both RB cars were going straight on, Webber just held his position.

So IMO it was clearly Vettel's fault, his action reminded me a lot of the Schumacher Villeneuve crash in Jerez in 1997.

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The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Porker:

IMO, Webber making room for Vettel equals letting him pass, he just held position. It's his right to do so, Vettel made the move, he has to make sure he ends it safely, he should know his competitor is not obliged to make room when batteling for position. You can't just bully your way passed.

+1 This is exactly what happened. They haven't come to turning point for the left-hand corner and evenif Vettel was in front of Webber, he wasn't front for a whole length of a car. So sudden manouver to the right is not acceptable, IMO. Webber kept his position and he doesn't have to brake to let Vettel pass.

IMO, it is all Vettel's fault. If you made the move, you have to make sure how it ends. You can't just cut the other car once your front wheels pass him..

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

And here are the photos I promised to post:

Me, in front of the Red Bull Garage:

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

ME and my friend in the Red Bull Garage, next to Webber's car:

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Another photo in the Red Bull Garage:

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Red Bull Team with the tallest Man in the World:

Actually he is Turkish and 247 cm.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

pride355:

Porker:

IMO, Webber making room for Vettel equals letting him pass, he just held position. It's his right to do so, Vettel made the move, he has to make sure he ends it safely, he should know his competitor is not obliged to make room when batteling for position. You can't just bully your way passed.

+1 This is exactly what happened. They haven't come to turning point for the left-hand corner and evenif Vettel was in front of Webber, he wasn't front for a whole length of a car. So sudden manouver to the right is not acceptable, IMO. Webber kept his position and he doesn't have to brake to let Vettel pass.

IMO, it is all Vettel's fault. If you made the move, you have to make sure how it ends. You can't just cut the other car once your front wheels pass him..

+3

This is the point, its not the same when the guy being overtaken is entering a corner and cuts the turn, in spite being overtaken and crashing with the other driver. In that case if you can't make the corner in front anymore you need to let him pass.

But if you are in the straight still, and the other driver gets side by side while in the straight YOU DO NOT HAVE TO STEP ON THE BRAKE! just because he is next to you, half a car in front or behind, you can still keep going straight, in your line, until the corner comes and then after the braking, the right of way will be decided by who is in front in the end and in the good line. Its THEN you let pass, not before while still in the straight.

How many times we have seen overtake attempts and the driver being almost overtaken on the straight still manages to hold the line under braking and aborts the overtake? Webber was on the straight driving straight! he did nothing wrong, since when should a driver move a side while still on the straight? its Vettel that as soon a he got half a car length ahead turned suddenly onto Webber's car, in spite having all the space in the world on his side.

Guess Vettel thought that Webber doesn't deserve a shot at the championship and needs to simply move aside for him (in spite of being outperformed in the last races and behind in the points). Hence Vettel probably thought that Webber would have lifted the throttle in the middle of the straight like a lapped driver under a blue flag and though Webber was already behind him and not side by side still.

I think this was the problem, Vettel thought Webber let him pass and swerved right for a better line into the next corner, he didn't think Webber was going to fight the overtake ( which he had every right to ) And Webber in turn, did not expect for Vettel to swerve into him in the middle of the straight. Does anybody think that Vettel would of done that maneuver if Hamilton was the one he was overtaking?

And seems like the team, since Webber may be substituted next year and their "investment" is Vettel, also thinks Webber should move aside like if he was a lapped driver Difficult situation for Webber in the team, I feel sorry for him, and that is why I'll be cheering for him in the next races, he showed a lot of class after the race as well.

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Carlos from Spain:

This is the point, its not the same when the guy being overtaken is entering a corner and cuts the turn, in spite being overtaken and crashing with the other driver. In that case if you can't make the corner in front anymore you need to let him pass.

But if you are in the straight still, and the other driver gets side by side while in the straight YOU DO NOT HAVE TO STEP ON THE BRAKE! just because he is next to you, half a car in front or behind, you can still keep going straight, in your line, until the corner comes and then after the braking, the right of way will be decided by who is in front in the end and in the good line. Its THEN you let pass, not before while still in the straight.

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EXACTLY. Can't say it better myself.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Nobody here is noticing that Vettel was running outside of the race line. That means the tarmac was not ideal for him. Less rubber on the track in that area also mean less traction. He was in a hurry to get back on the racing line so he made a mistake. IMHO he rushed the overtake and he paid the price. He didn't planned this one very well. And by the way him and Kubica are the ones I like most. But that doesn't mean that I should be blind. I am sorry for the kid but he made another mistake under pressure. Not a good sign. Anyway, thumbs up for Webber. I like him too just not us much. But I give him an A for how cool and diplomatic he manged everything in the last three races.

Also mind the words of their Red Bull team principal, Christian Horner:
“It’s disappointing for the team to have got into that position today. The one thing I always ask the drivers is that, yes, they can race each other, but give each other room, and that’s exactly what didn’t happen. They were too far over on the left, Sebastian got a run on the inside of Mark, but then came across too early. They didn’t give each other room; it’s as simple as that. It was a massively close race between us and the McLarens up until that point. We managed to get ourselves ahead with a better pit-stop and a better strategy for Sebastian and were first and second. Sebastian was a bit happier on the prime tyre than Mark and was looking quicker at that point in the race. He got a run on Mark up the inside and we saw what happened. It’s massively disappointing and the situation shouldn’t have occurred. To give McLaren 28 points on a plate is very frustrating for everyone in the team - especially after so much hard work. We’ve lost a lot of points today with what’s happened. We need to learn from it, so we don’t find ourselves in this position again.”

According to him and it's my opinion too, BOTH drivers made a mistake, Webber perhaps a smaller one.

Also, did you guys noticed Button? I am starting to respect him more and more. He seems to be the most cool blooded driver on the grid. He controls his races, up to now at least. And I  LOVED the way he jumped on Lewis. Two champions at their best.

There is no try. Just do.

The maxim from this story (and numerous others from the past) is that in a team going for the championship there should be a Star driver and a support driver obedient without too much ambition.

Otherwise, now that team orders and driver contract clauses about #1 and #2  are against the rules, teams stand to lose any technical advantage due the ambitions of equal status drivers. McLaren lost a certain title in this way with  Alonso vs Hamilton in spite of having the best car.

"Form follows function"

Pentium:

Also, did you guys noticed Button? I am starting to respect him more and more. He seems to be the most cool blooded driver on the grid. He controls his races, up to now at least. And I  LOVED the way he jumped on Lewis. Two champions at their best. 

I like Button too.

As regards relationships, I'm sure that once they both have a strong chance for the Title, things will start going sour for those two as well.

"Form follows function"

Pentium:

Also mind the words of their Red Bull team principal, Christian Horner:

“It’s disappointing for the team to have got into that position today. The one thing I always ask the drivers is that, yes, they can race each other, but give each other room, and that’s exactly what didn’t happen. They were too far over on the left, Sebastian got a run on the inside of Mark, but then came across too early. They didn’t give each other room; it’s as simple as that. It was a massively close race between us and the McLarens up until that point. We managed to get ourselves ahead with a better pit-stop and a better strategy for Sebastian and were first and second. Sebastian was a bit happier on the prime tyre than Mark and was looking quicker at that point in the race. He got a run on Mark up the inside and we saw what happened. It’s massively disappointing and the situation shouldn’t have occurred. To give McLaren 28 points on a plate is very frustrating for everyone in the team - especially after so much hard work. We’ve lost a lot of points today with what’s happened. We need to learn from it, so we don’t find ourselves in this position again.”

According to him and it's my opinion too, BOTH drivers made a mistake, Webber perhaps a smaller one.

Webber was too much on the middle of the track. Actually you don't have to be that far left side on the back straight in Istanbul Park.

However, just before the back straight you have a small angle right turn where you pass flat-out but you apex inside and let the car goes outside (which is left side) and then come back to right side slowly for the tight left hand at the end of the straight. Webber was just coming too slowly to right side of the track, probably just to block passing line more but it is LEGAL. You can even change direction on a straight ONCE.

If they were different team's drivers, all the blame would go to Vettel. BUT, 2 drivers from the same team, Webber doesn't give much space to Vettel. You can't blame him, because they are racing with each other.

On the other hand, right manouver of Vettel was too sharp, and one wouldn't expect it. Vettel was looking for a better angle for the tight left hand but his move to the right was too early and too sudden.

I think, in the end Vettel got what he deserved after his manouver. I like him, and following his results for the last 3 years, and IMO, he is a good driver, but the pressure shows people's real attitude and character.

I'm not a special fan of Webber, but I like his cool attitude in the press conferans.

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ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW (On ORDER)

09 Audi TTS Coupe / 07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Bottom line is... it's a 'cardinal sin' for team-mates to take each other off...period.  That goes especially when they are running first & second!

The most salient point made in this discussion is neither gave the other sufficient room during the incident.  Hamilton & Button showed how it should be done later in the race.

The upside of all of this is that, at last, we saw some overtaking manoeuvres in dry conditions... that's got to be good for the sport..

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

I've watched this a number of times now and initially I thought it was SV fault.

However, if you watch at the very beginning of this clip, MW takes the right hander before the straight, he then starts to line himself up for the left hander.  The clip shows that SV has more speed out of the same right hander and is able to start to overtake MW, but MW notices this and deliberately moves back towards the left of the track to make it particularly tight for SV.

That, as I understand it, is deliberately blocking and not allowed albeit, technically, hSV was able to get down the LHS of him.  This is suppose means that MW didn't completely block him but he might as well have.

I think SV has a case, but a racing incident and two championship contenders not wanting to give way to one another.

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