Crown

bbywu:

So look at who's using the BBS FI to set a Nurburgring record?  I guess BBS should clarify..."The wheel is not for racing purposes but for road use...like roads through the Green Hell." 

 Actually the one setting the "record" doesn't use the BBS Fi, the 599XX uses different wheels, the GTO still has no record on the ring as far as i know. i could be wrong 

^^^That's a beautiful shot of the 599xx. Wheel looks very similar to the "real" Spyder rim (pic taken at 2007 LA Auto Show), mesh style with 7 forks. Gorgeous and to my eyes a world apart from the Fi as far as "good look" is concerned.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

^^^That's a beautiful shot of the 599xx. Wheel looks very similar to the "real" Spyder rim (pic taken at 2007 LA Auto Show), mesh style with 7 forks. Gorgeous and to my eyes a world apart from the Fi as far as "good look" is concerned.

 

 Apparently that setup with the 7 forks gives one of the best combinations between rigidity and weight. maybe thats why its common to find it in racing wheels. although the best looking ones are certainly the Spyder wheel. the ones in the 599XX look awesome too. 

I like them more and more (design)

Enmanuel:

cannga:

^^^That's a beautiful shot of the 599xx. Wheel looks very similar to the "real" Spyder rim (pic taken at 2007 LA Auto Show), mesh style with 7 forks. Gorgeous and to my eyes a world apart from the Fi as far as "good look" is concerned.

 

 Apparently that setup with the 7 forks gives one of the best combinations between rigidity and weight. maybe thats why its common to find it in racing wheels. although the best looking ones are certainly the Spyder wheel. the ones in the 599XX look awesome too. 

It's simpler than that. 
A 7-fork design cannot be reconciled with a conventional 5-bolt wheel in terms of harmonious styling. This problem does not apply to centre-lock wheels, and most centre-lock wheels up until the recent past have been racing wheels.  

fritz

fritz:

It's simpler than that. 
A 7-fork design cannot be reconciled with a conventional 5-bolt wheel in terms of harmonious styling.

Fritz,

I have to disagree.  I find the 7-fork styling on the 5-bolt Panamera RS-Spyder wheel quite attractive.

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

W8MM:

fritz:

It's simpler than that. 
A 7-fork design cannot be reconciled with a conventional 5-bolt wheel in terms of harmonious styling.

Fritz,

I have to disagree.  I find the 7-fork styling on the 5-bolt Panamera RS-Spyder wheel quite attractive.

The lack of symmetry of the 5-bolt hole pattern and the 7-spoke wheel pattern does not show up in that perspective, but if you can find a photograph showing the wheel face square-on you'll see what I mean.

If you cannot find a photograph showing the wheel square-on, you can guess why.  

fritz

Fritz,

I have them on my own Panamera Turbo and like them the best of any of the wheel options, especially compared to the Turbo II design.

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

W8MM:

Fritz,

I have them on my own Panamera Turbo and like them the best of any of the wheel options, especially compared to the Turbo II design.

Then you'll have seen what I meant about "harmonious styling":   unlike most other wheels, the relationship of the spokes to the bolt holes is only symmetric when the valve is at top dead centre or bottom dead centre positions.

fritz

fritz:

Then you'll have seen what I meant about "harmonious styling":   unlike most other wheels, the relationship of the spokes to the bolt holes is only symmetric when the valve is at top dead centre or bottom dead centre positions.

Frankly, I didn't notice at all.

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

fritz:

Enmanuel:

cannga:

^^^That's a beautiful shot of the 599xx. Wheel looks very similar to the "real" Spyder rim (pic taken at 2007 LA Auto Show), mesh style with 7 forks. Gorgeous and to my eyes a world apart from the Fi as far as "good look" is concerned.

 

 Apparently that setup with the 7 forks gives one of the best combinations between rigidity and weight. maybe thats why its common to find it in racing wheels. although the best looking ones are certainly the Spyder wheel. the ones in the 599XX look awesome too. 

It's simpler than that. 
A 7-fork design cannot be reconciled with a conventional 5-bolt wheel in terms of harmonious styling. This problem does not apply to centre-lock wheels, and most centre-lock wheels up until the recent past have been racing wheels.  

Hope you are not saying only wheels that have 5, or 10, or 15 spokes, to match the number of bolts, have harmonious styling? Plus I wouldn't think racing wheel engineers worry too much about styling?

Re. the posted pics of FFi above (thanks): technologically advanced, but polarizing look for sure. When this wheel was first posted on another forum, people either love it, or hate it, and now the more I look, the more I find myself in the latter camp.
It's my observation that mesh wheels starts to look odd (disharmonious ) when number of forks is few, like 6 or less. But as already mentioned, this is a matter of personal preference, no right or wrong.
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

BBS  RE  forged  -  another nice one

Misha011:

BBS  RE  forged  -  another nice one

Perfection!
 

cannga:

fritz:

cannga:

 Apparently that setup with the 7 forks gives one of the best combinations between rigidity and weight. maybe thats why its common to find it in racing wheels. although the best looking ones are certainly the Spyder wheel. 

It's simpler than that. 
A 7-fork design cannot be reconciled with a conventional 5-bolt wheel in terms of harmonious styling. This problem does not apply to centre-lock wheels, and most centre-lock wheels up until the recent past have been racing wheels.  

Hope you are not saying only wheels that have 5, or 10, or 15 spokes, to match the number of bolts, have harmonious styling? Plus I wouldn't think racing wheel engineers worry too much about styling?

Many wheels do not have distinct "spoke" or "fork" designs, so have no issues at all with "harmoniously" matching the design of the wheel's outer flange area to the bolt pattern of the inner flange (=hub) area. 

I did not imply that styling was a deciding factor in the layout of racing wheels, though I am sure that no attempt is made to deliberately make them ugly. 

You wrote that 7-fork designs are common on racing wheels, by implication, more common than on road wheels. That prompted my initial point implying that, unlike many racing wheels,  road wheels generally have 5-bolt fixing patterns which have to be allowed for in their layout.
Extending 7 spokes or forks into the hub area of 5 -bolt wheel inevitably leads to a "collision" of the two incompatible segment angles (72° for the inner flange, 51.4° for the outer flange area) with negative implications for the consistency of both the appearance and the stress levels of that area. Both problems are countered by adding more material (=weight)  to the area concerned than would otherwise be needed.
If you look at sporty bolted wheels which have very thin spokes and very small hub areas and thereby give a visual appearance of being very light, then you will note that the number of spokes or forks is almost invariably a whole-number multiple of the number of bolts.

fritz

fritz:

cannga:

fritz:

cannga:

 Apparently that setup with the 7 forks gives one of the best combinations between rigidity and weight. maybe thats why its common to find it in racing wheels. although the best looking ones are certainly the Spyder wheel. 

It's simpler than that. 
A 7-fork design cannot be reconciled with a conventional 5-bolt wheel in terms of harmonious styling. This problem does not apply to centre-lock wheels, and most centre-lock wheels up until the recent past have been racing wheels.  

Hope you are not saying only wheels that have 5, or 10, or 15 spokes, to match the number of bolts, have harmonious styling? Plus I wouldn't think racing wheel engineers worry too much about styling?

Many wheels do not have distinct "spoke" or "fork" designs, so have no issues at all with "harmoniously" matching the design of the wheel's outer flange area to the bolt pattern of the inner flange (=hub) area. 

I did not imply that styling was a deciding factor in the layout of racing wheels, though I am sure that no attempt is made to deliberately make them ugly. 

You wrote that 7-fork designs are common on racing wheels, by implication, more common than on road wheels. That prompted my initial point implying that, unlike many racing wheels,  road wheels generally have 5-bolt fixing patterns which have to be allowed for in their layout.
Extending 7 spokes or forks into the hub area of 5 -bolt wheel inevitably leads to a "collision" of the two incompatible segment angles (72° for the inner flange, 51.4° for the outer flange area) with negative implications for the consistency of both the appearance and the stress levels of that area. Both problems are countered by adding more material (=weight)  to the area concerned than would otherwise be needed.
If you look at sporty bolted wheels which have very thin spokes and very small hub areas and thereby give a visual appearance of being very light, then you will note that the number of spokes or forks is almost invariably a whole-number multiple of the number of bolts.

 That does make sense 

^^^All good discussion!

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

can you post this pic and the stock rs spyder wheel for the tubro , thx 

thank you , very close. different finish ?

Can

For your records... I have put my stock wheels back on as I am going to get the Dymags refurbished. The rears have a lot of flaking lacquer and look a mess. What is interesting is the rears have obviously got a lot hotter than the fronts due to the TC/PSM action

I weighed them with tyres as follows:

Stock wheels:

8.5X19 235/35 MPSC NO = 19kg

12X19 325/30 MPSC NO = 27kg

Dymag magnalium:

9X19 245/35 MPSC N1+ = 16kg

12X19 325/30 MPSC+ N1 = 21.5kg

So in summary 17kg unsprung weight saving with bigger front wheel/tyre combo....

Just another somewhat worring note which someone more "hands on" may answer for me:

The rear hubs have 5mm shim/spacers which are attached by two small bolts. On one side the bolt thread behind the bolt holes had shifted so the bolts could not be screwed in !! I attached the shim without the bolts since it is secured my wheel anyway but still wonder what has actually moved and is it supposed to

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2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

According to tire rack the MSPC+ weigh as follows:

235/35X19 = 20lbs/9.1kg

245/35X19 = 21lbs/9.5kg

325/30X19 =28lbs/12.7kg

That makes the wheels weigh:

Stock:

8.5X19 = 9.9kg

12X19 = 14.3kg

Dymag Magnalium:

9X19 = 6.5kg

12X19 = 8.8kg

Not sure how exact all the numbers are (since I used accurate Seca not Secan  analogue bathroom scales) and the tyre weights may be off however the stock wheel weights look about right so

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2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

^^^ I think if you weigh directly with digital scale, it would come out close to the 7.6 kg/9.3 kg reported by imcarnuts -- that's how his was done. http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/126845-new-dymags-arrive-2.html . Not lightest, but still pretty light! I heard that Dymag has been bought out btw and so we should expect more carbon wheel in the future.

Did you change your front tire from  235/35 to 245/35? You probably know already, but in case not: The 245/35 is a bigger tire and underestimates your top speed by 1% or so? http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html
I only mention this because you always seem to go for such high speed and I am sure every little per cent counts there. Don't know if speedometer measures off front or rear wheel though.

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

^^^ I think if you weigh directly with digital scale, it would come out close to the 7.6 kg/9.3 kg reported by imcarnuts -- that's how his was done. http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/126845-new-dymags-arrive-2.html . Not lightest, but still pretty light! I heard that Dymag has been bought out btw and so we should expect more carbon wheel in the future.

Did you change your front tire from  235/35 to 245/35? You probably know already, but in case not: The 245/35 is a bigger tire and underestimates your top speed by 1% or so? http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html
I only mention this because you always seem to go for such high speed and I am sure every little per cent counts there. Don't know if speedometer measures off front or rear wheel though.

 

Can, digital or analogue doesn't matter it is the accuracy of the scale - mine are a Seca scale, quite high quality and accurate enough. Remember the wheel weighed in your link had the old Alloy centres, mine are the new Magnalium which is lighter - I can tell by the deduction of the weight of the rear stock wheel @ 14.3kg that my methodology and hardware (scales) are quite accurate, the only element I would be concerned about is tirerack's weight of the tyre at 21lbs but if that is correct then 6.5kg it is  !..... certainly the fronts are sub 7kg..... and yes "the lightest"

I wonder from your second paragraph that you seem to not realise that I take measuring quite seriously, I am a bit of an anorak in this area for example the Driftbox/performance box which is now "the standard" was extensively tested by me against the other then pretender the AX22 "back in the day" and I back to backed them in testing to prove the accuracy of the DB/PB hence noone really uses the AX22 any more as the cheaper easier to use DB/PB were proven as accurate - it goes without saying that I don't even look at the car's speedometer when measuring top speed - actually not quite true, I seem to remember it reading 211mph at a GPS 199.6mph

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

^^^
1. Main point is to weigh directly, without tire; eliminate the variable. Digital scale doesn't hurt either, as we are now down to the milligram. Kidding.
I don't know how you could disprove a direct weight using a (digital) scale with a picture, unless by direct weight with another picture.

2. Did someone at Dymag say that the new alum mag alloy center is lighter than the old mag center? I might have thought otherwise.

3. Someone else quoted weight for Dymag, much closer to imcarnuts' than yours. I'll find it later. Not official, just another source.

3. Speedometer: Should have remember you have Vbox! Never mind -- silly me.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

^^^
1. Main point is to weigh directly, without tire; eliminate the variable. Digital scale doesn't hurt either, as we are now down to the milligram. Kidding.
I don't know how you could disprove a direct weight using a (digital) scale with a picture, unless by direct weight with another picture.

2. Did someone at Dymag say that the new alum mag alloy center is lighter than the old mag center? I might have thought otherwise.

3. Someone else quoted weight for Dymag, much closer to imcarnuts' than yours. I'll find it later. Not official, just another source.

What is sad (about me ) is I nearly got one of the front Dymags (with tyre) out of the boot of my car this morning to take a photo of the 16kg reading - just for you, but I managed to resist

I agree, variables need to be eliminated - unfortunately my refurb shop do not have a digi scale either so I guess a naked wheel photo is not going to happen, for now you can take my word that 245/35X19 MPSC+ tyres with 9X19 Dymag Magnalium including balancing weights and TPS are 16kg

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

^^^Just for me? Ha ha. Thanks. Yes 16kg is pretty damn light -- lighter than my humble HRE P40 for sure.
And of course, of all the lightest weights out there, Dymag is the prettiest to my eyes still. Hope the refurbishing will bring back the beauty.

Reason I asked about alum-mag versus mag center is that if anything, I think the gen 2 Dymag that uses alum-mag would be heavier than gen 1 that uses mag, as alum does have higher specific weight than mag. (Not sure about this though.)
There was a quote on 6speed about the weight of Dymag 2. I'll find it later.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

Reason I asked about alum-mag versus mag center is that if anything, I think the gen 2 Dymag that uses alum-mag would be heavier than gen 1 that uses mag, as alum does have higher specific weight than mag. (Not sure about this though.)
There was a quote on 6speed about the weight of Dymag 2. I'll find it later.

I understand and agree with what you say, Magnesium "should" be lighter than Magnalium which Dymag proclaimed as an alloy of magnesium and aluminium........

The next time I get new tyres I will for sure get the scales out again (risking ridicule from the tyre guys) and get that picture

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

 The porsche wheels look crap compared to the REs

Porsche should do much better on wheels .  Turbo II wheels are one of the worst I have seen in a long time and do not fit / blend with body style of any Porsche model .

Here my p-shop of Cayenne turbo wheels on Panamera