Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: New MB plans 2010-2011 - Page1

Dec 26, 2009 10:48:28 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003

New MB plans 2010-2011

Mercedes Neuheiten 2010/2011

Im Rahmen der E-Klasse Cabrio Vorstellung in Dubai haben Dr. Zetsche und Dr. Weber Einblicke in den Entwicklungsfahrplan der nächsten Jahre gewährt.
So wird 2010 nicht nur der SLS, das E-Cabrio, CLS, sondern auch das Facelift der R-Klasse und das des CL (dann S-Coupé) debütieren. Im Sommer wird das S-Klasse Coupé mit neuen V8-Motoren (MoVe-Generation) mit Turbolader und Benzindirekteinspritzung ausgerüstet. Sie soll in manchen Modellen bis zu 25% Kraftstoff sparen. Diese Motorgeneration umfasst neue V6 und V8 Benziner inkl. einer AMG-Variante. Diese Motoren werden dann auch in den neuen CLS (C218, Vorstellung auf dem Pariser Automobil Salon) sowie der S-Klasse eingesetzt. 2011 werden sich auch in der C-Klasse mit Facelift zu finden sein (nur V6, M276). Neben dem C-Klasse Facelift wird auch ein auf der C-Klasse basierendes Einsteiger-Coupé ab Frühjahr 2011 in Bremen vom Band laufen. Es wird den CLC ersetzen. Das Design ist bis zur B-Säule mit der Limousine identisch. Die Nullserie soll noch im Frühjahr 2010 zur Erprobung anlaufen. Weitere Neuheiten in 2011 werden die neue B-Klasse (W246), die neue M-Klasse (W166) sowie der neue SLK (R172) sein.

Anfang 2011 kommt auch der bekannte 4-Zylinder OM651 in die S-Klasse (S 300 CDI BE) und wird dort 224 PS leisten und die CO2-ärmste Oberklassenlimousine darstellen. Zum Jahreswechsel 2010/2011 ist auch ein umfangreiches Update des V6-CDI geplant. Der dann intern bezeichnete OM642 LS soll 252 PS leisten und auch beim Drehmoment deutlich zulegen.

Um die Beschäftigung in Sindelfingen nach der Verlagerung der C-Klasse Produktion ab 2014 nach Tuscaloosa (USA) zu sichern hat nun das "T-Modell" auf Basis des neuen CLS grünes Licht bekommen. Intern wird der Crossover-Shooting-Brake als X218 entwickelt. Er wird Ende 2011/ Anfang 2012 auf den Markt kommen.

Des Weiteren hat Dr. Weber für 2014 eine völlig neue Automatik angekündigt. Die intern genannte NGS (Neue Generation Stufenautomatik) wird über mindestens 8-Gänge verfügen und die Effizienz der 7G-Tronic (NAG2) noch weiter steigern. Bis es aber soweit ist, wird die 7G-Tronic ab 2011 auch bei 4-Zylinder Motoren zum Einsatz kommen und in 2010 bei einigen Modellen mit einer externen Zusatzölpumpe ausgerüstet, die es erlaubt die Wechsel von N nach D und umgekehrt auch bei abgeschaltetem Motor vorzunehmen. Dadurch werden diese Modell dann auch bei Automatik über ein Stopp-Start System verfügen.

--
Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

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Dec 26, 2009 10:58:20 AM

Ziggy: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1600, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: andrea

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Thanks, though I am not as keen on Mercedes as let's say BMW, very intesresting nevertheless! I am glad they will come up with up-to-date engines, although I am slightly disappointed the current NA AMG V8's days seem to be numbered.

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Dec 26, 2009 1:09:11 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59580, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Ziggy

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Bye bye fantastic V8 sound...say hello to a vacuum cleaner V8 sound.

Now I just wish I could afford getting the C63 AMG too, this car has an exhaust/engine sound out of this world.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

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Dec 26, 2009 2:05:17 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I just spent the last 2 days in a new E350 and that has a tiny interior. Very diificult getting in and out of the backseat, Barely enough room for four adults and not much cargo. Nice appearance but not very useful or special.

We drove past a black Ferrari california at one point and that looked like it could easily be a lexus.

The more time passes the more I appreciate how incredible the 928 is. The funcionality, timeless looks and the best sound of any V8 on the road, a lot better than the nice amg sound.

My geuss is the C class is smaller than the E class. The X5 was a better choice.

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Dec 26, 2009 3:59:17 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59580, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Of course the X5 M has more interior room for the family but the C63 AMG wasn't bad at all. Our kids are 9 and 6, so no real brainer here. Maybe when they get older...

As to the sound of the C63 AMG and the 928. I know the 928 pretty well, I drove them all, incl. the latest generation GTS. This car was somehow ahead of this time and it is a pitty that Porsche just "killed" it in favor of the 911 but regarding the engine/exhaust sound, the 928 doesn't come even close to the C63 AMG I'm afraid. Right now, the C63 AMG and maybe the current generation BMW M3 are the best sounding "affordable" cars on the market. As much as I hate the extra weight of my wife's M3 Cab over the standard M3 Coupe or even sedan, the exhaust sound is really very nice.

Also sounding nice: Maserati Quattroporte Sport GT S, Maserati GranTurismo S, Porsche 997 Sport Exhaust, Aston Martin V8 Vantage.

Somehow disappointing: Porsche V8 sport exhaust (Cayenne, Panamera), especially the Panamera Turbo sport exhaust was a bit on the "lower " side, not too impressive but definetely better than the standard sound.

I know that the exhaust/engine sound is a matter of taste/personal preference but I really heard a lot of cars and the C63 AMG and BMW M3 are top of the line with regards to the exhaust/engine sound.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

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Dec 26, 2009 4:52:49 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I have mentioned it in the past but should make it clear more often.

My 928 has a custom made all Stainless steel dual exhaust system from the exhaust manifolds back.. Much different than stock. The factory sound for all 928's was tame. The only V8 that sounds similiar to my custom exhaust is the Maserati GTS. I have said that before. There should not be much surprise in that as they are the same displacement 4.7 liters and relatively high revving V8's.

You are not the only one who has tried to improve the factory exhaust sound.

If I didn't know better I could confuse this as my car, mine may be 10% louder and slighly sharper

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Dec 26, 2009 8:28:43 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59580, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Custom made systems may be interesting but they're not really interesting for me for various reasons:

1. in Germany, most of them are illegal (meaning: you loose insurance, etc.)

2. they may sound nice to some point (not all of them) but they usually aren't well made either, resulting in a significant change of backpressure/flow. This results in actually loosing power and/or torque at certain rev figures. Especially for turbo engines, this can be deadly in many ways.

3. if your 928 sounds like the Maserati GT S, something went wrong. It should rather sound like the C63 (deep growl) because this was actually the original sound planned for the 928 but apparently Ferry Porsche wasn't a friend of it, so they tuned it down.

I usually stay away from custom made exhausts and even exhaust systems offered by third party manufacturers/tuners. Only sport exhaust I ever bought was from Cargraphic because I know the background of how they work with the developer (Phoenix) .

Don't get me wrong, I'm just not a friend of aftermarket systems at all.

Btw: how about posting a video or sound file of your actual 928, I bet a lot of people would be interested.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

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Dec 26, 2009 8:51:59 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I trust the manufacturer of the system RC.

It was me.

One of my hobbies is making things. I am a very good TIG welder with my own equipment. They shine like the intake that is my avatar and they will last forever!

I wish I could do a video, but my car is in storage until I build my house.

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Dec 26, 2009 11:03:55 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59580, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

The welding isn't really the problem here. As long as you're an engineer specialized on exhaust systems, I fully support you.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

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Dec 26, 2009 11:23:31 PM

artur777: Senior; Loc: Europe , Russia; Posts: 774, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 8, 2008; Reply to: RC

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

what are the main points of Mercedes plans in English

could anybody give a short brief please?

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Dec 27, 2009 11:29:24 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: artur777

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

artur777:

what are the main points of Mercedes plans in English

could anybody give a short brief please?

I used to understand google translator Smiley

--
Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

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Mar 12, 2010 3:25:18 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: andrea

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Mercedes presented the S63 as a showcar, referring to the 300 SEL racecar in similiar livery thirty years ago. EU specs are 544 hp / 800 Nm for standard, 571 & 900 Nm in powerkit version. Performance numbers are 0-100 kph in 4.5 and Vmax 250 resp. 4.4 & 300 kph.

Obviously the new engine is not an AMG exclusive development anymore but based on the upcoming 4.6 litre twin-turbo V8 M278.

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Mar 12, 2010 5:39:02 PM

REALZEUS: Expert; Loc: UK and Greece , United Kingdom; Posts: 1611, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2008; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

The loss of natural aspiration is sad...

--
FERRARI RULES!!!

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Mar 12, 2010 5:52:10 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: REALZEUS

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

REALZEUS:

The loss of natural aspiration is sad...

Please remember in what kind of car these engines will be installed: quite heavy limousines... For these cars low-end torque and power seems quite important. That's why I personally think that the biturbo concept is a good way to go. Also with regards to minimizing fuel consumption Smiley

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Mar 12, 2010 10:19:30 PM

REALZEUS: Expert; Loc: UK and Greece , United Kingdom; Posts: 1611, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2008; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I am afraid they are going under the bonnets of SLs and CLs though and these are meant as sports cars. As is the aural pleasure loss. Noone argues with fuel economy benefits but then again, anyone after high MPGs should get a diesel... lol.

--
FERRARI RULES!!!

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Mar 12, 2010 11:13:18 PM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: REALZEUS

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

SLs and to an even greater extent CLs have never been sports cars, they are GTs. Even the SL65 black is more of a GT with a bone rattling ride, which makes it sort of an odd duck.

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Mar 12, 2010 11:34:04 PM

REALZEUS: Expert; Loc: UK and Greece , United Kingdom; Posts: 1611, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2008; Reply to: trip

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I never said they are out and out sports cars but they nontheless retain a sportly character. That 6.2 litre NA V8 has character in spades!

--
FERRARI RULES!!!

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Mar 13, 2010 12:40:59 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: REALZEUS

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I beg to differs. I feel more sporty in a force-induction car, there is no substitute for low end torque, that punch you get when you nail the throttle is like the most addictive dug there is.

In a NA car, the meat of the powerband is high up, I have to wait for the engine to rev up to that point to enjoy the power.

I have had both the 55 Kompressor engine and the 6.2 NA engine. There is no comparison as to which is more fun. Granted, hearing an engine revving to 7k is quite a treat, especially in a 6.2l V8, but the lose of low end power compared with the 55K cannot make up for it.

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Mar 13, 2010 1:03:40 AM

REALZEUS: Expert; Loc: UK and Greece , United Kingdom; Posts: 1611, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2008; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I also beg to differ Whoopsy.

--
FERRARI RULES!!!

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Mar 13, 2010 1:15:16 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: REALZEUS

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Most people I know prefer the 5.5 Kompressor over its successor, so there must be some truth behind Whoopsy´s thinking. In my opinion, a car that weighst more than two tons needs something else than a NA engine that delivers power primarily at high RPMs.

The SL or CL are not sportscars, no matter what expression one finds in the sales brochure. Furthermore, the supercharged V8 and turbocharged V12 from Mercedes both retained a pleasant and sufficiently loud exhaust note so no need to worry on that account.

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Mar 13, 2010 4:58:56 PM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Wow, if you think the 6.3L AMG engine has a weak low-end torque. Then you must really hate the M5 and especially the GT3 and Carrera GT

My favorite car is the GT3 which doesn't have much torque, and my least favorite car in my garage has the most torque, the ML63 Smiley

--

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Mar 13, 2010 6:57:15 PM

artur777: Senior; Loc: Europe , Russia; Posts: 774, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 8, 2008; Reply to: william

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

there is something beefy in low-end torque

when you press the accelerator, you feel it like a very special thing - NA motors couldnt even compare to it

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Mar 13, 2010 9:41:52 PM

REALZEUS: Expert; Loc: UK and Greece , United Kingdom; Posts: 1611, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2008; Reply to: artur777

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

Low end torque is for trucks... :P

--
FERRARI RULES!!!

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Mar 13, 2010 10:24:42 PM

Pentium: Rennteam Master; Loc: Earth , Romania; Posts: 3054, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 27, 2003; Reply to: REALZEUS

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

And for bad drivers Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley

--

There is no try. Just do.

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Mar 14, 2010 5:04:02 AM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: Pentium

Re: New MB plans 2010-2011

I won't go that extreme to bash cars with low-end torque, although stereotypically those cars are usually quite boring around corners.

For practical everyday use, overtake slower traffic, stop light environment, I'd prefer a car with good torque and automatic gearbox. The 6.3 engine is the perfect tool for that. It may even be faster than the new turbo engine since it has better traction off the line.

--

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