Crown

RC:

KresoF1:

"New engine is much more efficient then old one."

Fuel efficient ? I believe that. 

 Production cost efficiency as well 

Artur, the most extensive testing of 997.2 PDK Turbo in the US is in this thread: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/199811-evoms-project-2010-3-8l-dfi-997tt-has-officially-started.html. It appears they are "challenging" the car to its very limits. It's an interesting and informative thread; the most informative that I could find on the internet right now.

997.2 Turbo is moddable. Low power application should be easy. High power application: may not be as easy as 997.1 and internals might have to be modified. But... when there is a will, and $, there is a way.
Interestingly enough, IMHO, the limit is the PDK. Seeing now that PAG is adding radiator to 997 C2S PDK cars for "improved cooling," I keep thinking the PDK in the Turbo will get a. overheated, or b. blown up a la Nissan GTR :-), with moderate to high power application.

For those whose goal is speed, speed, and higher speed, LOL, 997.1 Turbo with Mezger engine, either automatic or manual, is looking better all the times. (From your questioning, I would vote that the Mezger car is the one for you.) For those whose wish is stupendous, unbelievable, dizzying, exciting, amazing  0-100 mph time, the 997.2 PDK Turbo is the ticket. That's the beauty of being a Porsche owner -- there IS something for everyone.

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:It appears they are "challenging" the car to its very limits.

 

Are they loading the engine to destruction to find the limits ?

Don't think so......nor have they the tools to do that properly in a way which they can accurately determine the weak points......Still as you point out at least they are providing an interesting running commentary on what they are doing :)

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

agree with you

interestingly, if they will modify the TT DFI engine for the next 991 generation? 

or it will be almost the same with all its + and -...

artur777:

agree with you

interestingly, if they will modify the TT DFI engine for the next 991 generation? 

or it will be almost the same with all its + and -...

I have not heard of any rumor about major DFI engine change for next generation. It *appears* (entirely speculative) the 991 will have more significant chassis change.

There is rumor, unconfirmed rumor, that the wheel base will be lengthened 4 inches or so, and the engine pushed forwards. This to me is another way of saying, we want to make the car more "mid-engine" like in its handling characteristic . Exciting future indeed -- and a major reason why I would wait now if I already have an older 911 and want to "upgrade/update" it.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

WHY THE PDK CANT BE USED IN GT1?????

WHY THE NEW DFI ENGINE  IS  SO OVERHEATED?????

Who told you that DFI engine in new 997.2 Turbo/Turbo S is "so overheating"???

Tuner fans here? Come on! Do you really think that Porsche put engine that is bad technical design in 997.2 Turbo?

Try to see who is writing all these stories about DFI engine-owners of tuned 997.1 Turbo or GT2. That is interesting, isn't it?

IMHO only a total freak would tune 997.2 Turbo PDK or Turbo S. Which car is faster in real world conditions?

Tuned 997.1 Turbo manual? Only if it have over 600ps and only if its driver is a pro.

Tuned 997.1 TIP? Only if it is with more then 550ps and again in hands of capable driver.

Did you drove 997.2 Turbo PDK? No. Well, try one. It is in 99% of real world conditions the fastest car on the market. For example-faster on the autobahn then 430 Scuderia. In fact Scud did not have a chance...

PDK in old GT1 block?

Discussed about 10 times already here on rennteam... GT1 block is too big in size for PDK and there are some other technical issues as well.

KresoF1:

Who told you that DFI engine in new 997.2 Turbo/Turbo S is "so overheating"???

Tuner fans here? Come on! Do you really think that Porsche put engine that is bad technical design in 997.2 Turbo?

Try to see who is writing all these stories about DFI engine-owners of tuned 997.1 Turbo or GT2. That is interesting, isn't it?

 

Please do not imply that 997.1/GT2 owners in some way feel some kind of inferiority to the new 997tt.2 - that is a ridiculous assertion. Most 997.1/GT2 owners could easily trade in for the newer one toady if they wished..... we are merely discussing this engine, it is a very interesting topic for Porsche enthusiasts since it may be a further dramatic sign of a shift in Porsche philosophy.

The evidence is showing that Porsche have designed the new engine to deliver up to ~528PS (as measured on low loading chassis dynos) which appears to be "available" up to about 240kph (measured by a US magazine 0-240kph in 16.2s) then it takes 25.6s to go from 240kph to 300kph (OK different tests but the 0-200kph on the 300kph test were very similar to the 240kph test) the 997tt.1 took 20s to go 250kph to 300kph....

OK the data is a bit scatty but it is all there is out there (which looks credible) at the moment and it definately points to the 997tt.2 losing its hp big time over ~240kph.

My view after what I was told by Schmirler (who as I said tested on proper engine dyno - the one he uses for the Alzen monster engines) that the 997tt.2 engine breaks at 550PS (real)  loadings.

My assertion is it only delivers its 500-528PS at low loadings and in 5th and 6th gear the programming reduces the power (overheating may be incorrect word but it will be for heat/stress related reasons) - please someone disagree and give an alternative theory/view ?

And the reason - Porsche philosophy is changing. It is ALL about money. The new engine is a lot cheaper to build. They realise quite correctly that performance to ~240kph is really all that matters practically and have concentrated on achieving this goal. 

The EVOMS (US Tuner) crew will be testing their 997tt.2 in the Texas mile run soon so there should be some more good data to shed more light on the subject. 

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

KresoF1:

Come on! Do you really think that Porsche put engine that is bad technical design in 997.2 Turbo?

I see this as an open-minded discussion, not bad-mouthing anything about the new engine. Afterall, Porsche used the M96/97 engine for about a decade in their cars. It is a fact that the longetivity that one could find on the aircooled engines and the Mezger engine does not necessarily carry over to the new developments. Not because Porsche´d be unable to do this but because it is of less necessity for them. For regular use and the common trade-in after a couple of years, it won´t make any difference. There have been several examples of the former lasting for more than 200 thousand km, for a performance engine that is.

Didn´t you comment on the reliability in the new 997.2 Carreras a while ago?

TB993tt:

 

My view after what I was told by Schmirler (who as I said tested on proper engine dyno - the one he uses for the Alzen monster engines) that the 997tt.2 engine breaks at 550PS (real)  loadings.

My assertion is it only delivers its 500-528PS at low loadings and in 5th and 6th gear the programming reduces the power (overheating may be incorrect word but it will be for heat/stress related reasons) - please someone disagree and give an alternative theory/view ?

Did Schmirler give you a detailed description what has failed under heavy load? The reduced power delivery in higher gears, if it indeed occurs this way, will certainly be due to high temperatures, but not necessarily the engine. This could also be a feature to prevent the PDK box from overheating. Reportedly, there have been some issues during its development.

I assume, should the scenario be as decribed above, that Porsche was concerned of temperatures in prolonged high-speed scenarios, such as on the Autobahn. That said, it could well be possible to create a DFI engine with increased performance numbers but possibly without the longevity according to Porsche´s standards.

TB993tt:

KresoF1:

Who told you that DFI engine in new 997.2 Turbo/Turbo S is "so overheating"???

Tuner fans here? Come on! Do you really think that Porsche put engine that is bad technical design in 997.2 Turbo?

Try to see who is writing all these stories about DFI engine-owners of tuned 997.1 Turbo or GT2. That is interesting, isn't it?

 

Please do not imply that 997.1/GT2 owners in some way feel some kind of inferiority to the new 997tt.2 - that is a ridiculous assertion. Most 997.1/GT2 owners could easily trade in for the newer one toady if they wished..... we are merely discussing this engine, it is a very interesting topic for Porsche enthusiasts since it may be a further dramatic sign of a shift in Porsche philosophy.

The evidence is showing that Porsche have designed the new engine to deliver up to ~528PS (as measured on low loading chassis dynos) which appears to be "available" up to about 240kph (measured by a US magazine 0-240kph in 16.2s) then it takes 25.6s to go from 240kph to 300kph (OK different tests but the 0-200kph on the 300kph test were very similar to the 240kph test) the 997tt.1 took 20s to go 250kph to 300kph....

OK the data is a bit scatty but it is all there is out there (which looks credible) at the moment and it definately points to the 997tt.2 losing its hp big time over ~240kph.

My view after what I was told by Schmirler (who as I said tested on proper engine dyno - the one he uses for the Alzen monster engines) that the 997tt.2 engine breaks at 550PS (real)  loadings.

My assertion is it only delivers its 500-528PS at low loadings and in 5th and 6th gear the programming reduces the power (overheating may be incorrect word but it will be for heat/stress related reasons) - please someone disagree and give an alternative theory/view ?

And the reason - Porsche philosophy is changing. It is ALL about money. The new engine is a lot cheaper to build. They realise quite correctly that performance to ~240kph is really all that matters practically and have concentrated on achieving this goal. 

The EVOMS (US Tuner) crew will be testing their 997tt.2 in the Texas mile run soon so there should be some more good data to shed more light on the subject. 

First, I am not implying that 997.1 Turbo/GT2 owners are bashing new engine. Most of them are simply discussing potential problems in new engine design.

BUT, your suggestion about REAL 550ps limit of 997.2 Turbo engine means that potential 997.2 Turbo S owner is risking a lot with purchase of this car. Whatever you agree with me or not...

New DFI engine will NOT be as long lived as old GT1 based engine-I can bet here. Why? It is DFI... Look at potential DFI problems...

Ferdie:

KresoF1:

Come on! Do you really think that Porsche put engine that is bad technical design in 997.2 Turbo?

I see this as an open-minded discussion, not bad-mouthing anything about the new engine. Afterall, Porsche used the M96/97 engine for about a decade in their cars. It is a fact that the longetivity that one could find on the aircooled engines and the Mezger engine does not necessarily carry over to the new developments. Not because Porsche´d be unable to do this but because it is of less necessity for them. For regular use and the common trade-in after a couple of years, it won´t make any difference. There have been several examples of the former lasting for more than 200 thousand km, for a performance engine that is.

Didn´t you comment on the reliability in the new 997.2 Carreras a while ago?

Oh yes, I did.
 

Read my post above. 550ps limit seems to be very, very low IMHO. I know someone who was present at 997.2 Turbo press into in Portugal. He get an interesting interview with one highly postioned technical P guy. According to that P guy 997.2 Turbo ps(HP) limit is bigger then 550ps without engine hardware upgrade...

KresoF1:

 

Read my post above. 550ps limit seems to be very, very low IMHO. I know someone who was present at 997.2 Turbo press into in Portugal. He get an interesting interview with one highly postioned technical P guy. According to that P guy 997.2 Turbo ps(HP) limit is bigger then 550ps without engine hardware upgrade...

I am not sure if you are understanding what I am putting forward......

The current 500PS engine clearly does NOT put out 500PS over the 240kph mark at these high loads. It is slower than the 480PS version so one can only assume the power drops below the 480PS level at the higher loads.

Your Porsche technical guy who says they can get a 550PS rating easily may well be comparing this rating to the standard settings which as I mentioned before have been measured at low chassis dyno loadings at 528PS for the existing 500PS engine.

The Schmirler 550PS rating is for full load - a Schmirler 550PS Porsche turbo will do 0-300kph in around 33s

Something is amiss and it looks to me like the Porsche turbo engine  has become watered down for the market - and as I said before it hits its target market spot on,.....

The 997tt.2 engine dyno failure was broken conrod.

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

Fact... 997.2 Turbo PDK is marginally slower in 0-300km/h then 997.1 Turbo manual.

Clarification:

1. 997.1 Turbo manual(Slate Grey example that stayed in Porsche feet till today) time of 40.8s for 0-300km/h was achieved 3 years ago by german AMS on VW test track in Germany. This example was by far the fastest example on 997.1 Turbo in high speed tests.

2. 997.2 Turbo PDK was only tested in 0-300km/h by german Sport Auto.

3. Nardo tests are always slower then high speed tests at VW test track in Germany.

KresoF1:

3. Nardo tests are always slower then high speed tests at VW test track in Germany.

 

 Sport Auto's test was done at Papenburg, not Nardo. 

acrobat:

KresoF1:

3. Nardo tests are always slower then high speed tests at VW test track in Germany.

 

 Sport Auto's test was done at Papenburg, not Nardo. 

And all the other cars tested at the same time to 300 all gave relaively fast times so the track/conditions were good and not a negative factor.....

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

acrobat:

KresoF1:

3. Nardo tests are always slower then high speed tests at VW test track in Germany.

 

 Sport Auto's test was done at Papenburg, not Nardo. 

I know that. I am just saying that Nardo tests are always little bit slower...

Must admit, I am salivating somewhat at the thought of the 997tt.2 engine which RS Tuning broke.......with a desire to prove Porsche engineer friends wrong they are rebuilding to 4 litre and a dose of their "knowhow"....

Not sure how long it or the PDK will last but knowing how the stock one goes that thing is going to absolutely rip, a tempting prospect.....

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

 KresoF1,

do you agree that 997.2 TT PDK real hps are lower than 500hps at higher speeds and higher than 500 hp at lower speeds?

I am really messed up because the arguments from both sides are very strong and I dont understand who is closer to the truth...

KresoF1, I plan to make a chip tuning for 997.2 TT PDK and get 550-570ps from it - no more!

I dont understand if it is realiable enough or I should wait for 991 TT PDK where the reliability will be higher?

artur777:

 KresoF1,

do you agree that 997.2 TT PDK real hps are lower than 500hps at higher speeds and higher than 500 hp at lower speeds?

I am really messed up because the arguments from both sides are very strong and I dont understand who is closer to the truth...

KresoF1, I plan to make a chip tuning for 997.2 TT PDK and get 550-570ps from it - no more!

I dont understand if it is realiable enough or I should wait for 991 TT PDK where the reliability will be higher?

Artur,

There will be an AMS 0-300km/h soon... So, we will have an additional data then.

Honestly, do NOT tune 997.2 Turbo PDK. If you need the fastest one go for 997.2 Turbo S. Period.

I am giving you here an honest and correct advice.

991 Turbo PDK wont be more reliable. Trust me on this also. New engine is what it is.

If you need PDK go for 997.2 Turbo S and leave it in standard form.

Or if you can live without PDK go for forthcoming 997.2 GT3RS.

 KresoF1, thanks for the honest reply

I wonder if it possible to buy 997.2 Turbo PDK and chip tune it for 530 ps as 997.2 Turbo S and get a good price economy:-))))??

or this is also not recommended?

artur777:

 KresoF1, thanks for the honest reply

I wonder if it possible to buy 997.2 Turbo PDK and chip tune it for 530 ps as 997.2 Turbo S and get a good price economy:-))))??

or this is also not recommended?

 Why would you want to do this? The "s" version costs about 10% more than the regular turbo. Most of the price premium is compensated by the extras you get for free. In essence, the "s" is priced fairly - plus you get the bullet proof package and full warranty. A no brainer if you ask me 

may be you are right - but the only reason for buying Turbo instead of Turbo S is to have a price economy

I am not sure I need composite brakes and RS Spyder wheels... that's why I  though about this variant - to buy Turbo and make a Stage 1 chip tune

I DONT BELIEVE IT WILL NOT HOLD STAGE 1 CHIP TUNE - it's a bullshit if you ask me...

and also I would like to install aftermarket exhaust with sport cats - it also adds some hps...

no more tuning. just this.... and it's a brainer for me..

Artur

You have been given the best advice for sure......

I tuned brand new GT2 Mezger engine and am not concerned about the warranty as I know the history of the engine and the tuner but with this new unit and the information so far I would certainly want the warranty - .2ttS it would have to be  

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

artur777:

may be you are right - but the only reason for buying Turbo instead of Turbo S is to have a price economy

I am not sure I need composite brakes and RS Spyder wheels... that's why I  though about this variant - to buy Turbo and make a Stage 1 chip tune

I DONT BELIEVE IT WILL NOT HOLD STAGE 1 CHIP TUNE - it's a bullshit if you ask me...

and also I would like to install aftermarket exhaust with sport cats - it also adds some hps...

no more tuning. just this.... and it's a brainer for me..

artur, as I'm in the market for 997.2 turbo (S) too, I can't understand why you want additional 30 hp to the standard Turbo. Y'll never  feel the difference imho. 30 hp means less than 6 percent and only performing @ revs > 6.250. And for that I loose my warranty?...

C'mon, let it be and enjoy the new turbo as it is. Y'll never regret about
 

Arthur if you want economy buy a 997.1 turbo and add a chip and exhaust. You will have a 30-33s 0-300 car for almost half the price of a 997.2 turboS

track vid

0-300kph

chasing a 997GT2

Conny997:

artur777:

may be you are right - but the only reason for buying Turbo instead of Turbo S is to have a price economy

I am not sure I need composite brakes and RS Spyder wheels... that's why I  though about this variant - to buy Turbo and make a Stage 1 chip tune

I DONT BELIEVE IT WILL NOT HOLD STAGE 1 CHIP TUNE - it's a bullshit if you ask me...

and also I would like to install aftermarket exhaust with sport cats - it also adds some hps...

no more tuning. just this.... and it's a brainer for me..

artur, as I'm in the market for 997.2 turbo (S) too, I can't understand why you want additional 30 hp to the standard Turbo. Y'll never  feel the difference imho. 30 hp means less than 6 percent and only performing @ revs > 6.250. And for that I loose my warranty?...

C'mon, let it be and enjoy the new turbo as it is. Y'll never regret about
 

Nevertheless it will be interesting to see the differences in performance figures between standard Turbo and Turbo S.
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Conny997:

artur, as I'm in the market for 997.2 turbo (S) too, I can't understand why you want additional 30 hp to the standard Turbo. Y'll never  feel the difference imho. 30 hp means less than 6 percent and only performing @ revs > 6.250. And for that I loose my warranty?...

C'mon, let it be and enjoy the new turbo as it is. Y'll never regret about
 

While I agree with you that 997.2 Turbo is NOT that safe to be modded, particularly for cars with PDK and/or higher power mod -- best to get 997.2 Turbo S or 997.1 Turbo  based on what we know so far, I should point out that, depending on the shape of the dyno curve, yes you could feel a big difference even if the number only lists a 30 hp increase.

1. The hp gain is listed at whatever rpm that has MAX hp, say 6200. This is a single point on the dyno curve; elsewhere, say at 3-4000 rpm, the gain in hp, both percentage wise and as an absolute number, *could* be much bigger. One needs to look at the area under the whole dyno curve, not a sigle point.

2. There are decreased lag and decreased spool up time (butt dyno, yes, but when the reports are so numerous and so overwhelmingly alike, it's become more than just  "subjective rumor") with even a modest stage 2 chipped car. This is a significant factor in the "feel" of the car.

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

agree with you!

the difference could be big...

but I am 90% already against tuning of 997.2 TT PDK

though Porsche always was the beloved by all the aftermarket tuners... times are changing?